DS Electronic Ignition
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Thread: DS Electronic Ignition

  1. #1
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    Default DS Electronic Ignition

    I have been running a 123 dissy in my DS21 for some time now and no problems there.However I would l ike to use a cheaper option in my D Special.I notice several on E bay etc such as Powerspark and Ultraspark,has anyone had any experience with any?

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    Fellow Frogger! Balki's Avatar
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    Default ignition

    the ultra spark conversion works well get rid of the points but keeps the advance system,
    make sure th eadvance system is clean and lubricated and works correct with the springs etc

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    Fellow Frogger! Rob T's Avatar
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    I fitted a Powerspark DS kit (like this) to my CX about 3 months ago. Simple to fit, worked first time. It does start quicker and idle smoother and run better than the points. I am very happy with the price / performance ratio. There are no permanent changes and it is relatively simple to re-fit the points if required.

    On the CX I had to turn the mounting plate over and drill the countersink from the 'other' side to get the module in the right position. I assume that this is because the CX engine rotates in the opposite direction to the DS.

    The only slight concern I have is longevity. Inside the distributor is a hot and poorly ventilated environment for the electronics that are switching the full coil current of about 5 amps. But so far so good. Hope it lasts for decades - but even if it is only a few years it is still good value. And much less painfull than dealing with points all the time.
    Robert Thorne
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob T View Post
    I fitted a Powerspark DS kit (like this) to my CX about 3 months ago. Simple to fit, worked first time. It does start quicker and idle smoother and run better than the points. I am very happy with the price / performance ratio. There are no permanent changes and it is relatively simple to re-fit the points if required.

    On the CX I had to turn the mounting plate over and drill the countersink from the 'other' side to get the module in the right position. I assume that this is because the CX engine rotates in the opposite direction to the DS.

    The only slight concern I have is longevity. Inside the distributor is a hot and poorly ventilated environment for the electronics that are switching the full coil current of about 5 amps. But so far so good. Hope it lasts for decades - but even if it is only a few years it is still good value. And much less painfull than dealing with points all the time.
    I've rebuilt a CX distributor with that kit recently, but had just sorted points and condensor so haven't fitted it yet. Good to hear one is working! But it all fitted OK without turning anything over. Hmm.

    The 123 people or Lumenition don't make a CX distributor with the geared drive instead of the offset slot. Alas.
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian woodcock View Post
    I have been running a 123 dissy in my DS21 for some time now and no problems there.However I would l ike to use a cheaper option in my D Special.I notice several on E bay etc such as Powerspark and Ultraspark,has anyone had any experience with any?
    Brian,

    I know the following unit(s) is/are not available in Australia, but in NA the major manufacturer of Hall effect replacement units for old mechanical distributors is Pertronix (http://www.pertronix.com). Had one in my 72DS before replacing with a 123 some years ago. The unit I had then went into another DS and is running fine. My 69 ID21 Break has a Pertronix unit. Reason I put the 123 in was for the advance curve adjustability as the engine was modified when I rebuilt the car and it was just a lot easier to find the an advance curve that worked well with my engine compared to fooling around with the springs.

    The Pertronix units have a excellent rep for reliability. The only thing you need to be aware of is typically any of the hall effect trigger systems require a coil with at least 1 ohm resistance - just like the 123 you have.

    Steve

  6. #6
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    Default DS Ign

    Thanks for those replies.Looking at the pictures the P/spark and U /spark look the same.
    Rob do you have the part no for your kit please.
    Steve 1ohm is quite small that will allow about 12 amps of coil current, how much do you want?
    Woody

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Rob T's Avatar
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    Brian,

    I would have preferred to buy a 123 because it is new and has adjustable curves. But they are not made for the CX. And I guess that there are so few CX's with conventional points that there isn't enough demand.

    I also think the powerspark and ultraspark look like the same unit. Since I wasn't sure if it would fit I chose the cheapest option. I swapped emails with simonbbc and they recommended their Kit K8. It was actually labelled as a Landrover kit. Maybe that is why I had to turn the mounting plate over.

    I don't have any photos on the computer. I can take some if there is any interest. But it looks just like the photos on the simonbbc website.

    I'm still really happy with the result. Simonbbc were easy to deal with and the Powerspark is so cheap that you can afford to suck it and see.
    Robert Thorne
    Brisbane
    Citroenless - for now...

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    Brian,

    1ohm is the minimum that the 123 and/or Pertronix units want to see. They are quite happy with more resistance for the primary winding. Suspect that prolonged use with less than 1ohm will cook the trigger electronics.

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    Brian,

    1ohm is the minimum that the 123 and/or Pertronix units want to see. They are quite happy with more resistance for the primary winding. Suspect that prolonged use with less than 1ohm will cook the trigger electronics.

    Steve
    I have this memory of 3 ohms minimum for my Hall effect kit. Certainly check very carefully. Shame to cook it on first use!
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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    Hi John,

    It was Dave Burnham in NY who got Pertronix to start marketing kits. Dave made the first ones himself - the first one I installed many years ago I ordered from Dave. Now, if one looks at the Pertronix Catalog, they have kits for both SEV and Ducillier units.

    The 1 ohm limit come directly from both the Pertronix and 123 installation notes. OTOH other units may well have a different requirement and one should follow the recommendations for the system they are installing.

    I think the 3 ohm figure may be sticking in your mind as that is the primary resistance of the Pertronix coil that most have installed with the Pertronix trigger system.

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    Hi John,

    It was Dave Burnham in NY who got Pertronix to start marketing kits. Dave made the first ones himself - the first one I installed many years ago I ordered from Dave. Now, if one looks at the Pertronix Catalog, they have kits for both SEV and Ducillier units.

    The 1 ohm limit come directly from both the Pertronix and 123 installation notes. OTOH other units may well have a different requirement and one should follow the recommendations for the system they are installing.

    I think the 3 ohm figure may be sticking in your mind as that is the primary resistance of the Pertronix coil that most have installed with the Pertronix trigger system.

    Steve
    Thanks Steve. It is the minimum coil resistance specified with my Hot Spark kit (http://www.hot-spark.com/). I haven't actually run it yet - rebuilt spare distributor but have new points and capacitor in the old one and other priorities..................

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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    Thanks for all the helpful comments,taking all things into consideration Ive ordered a Powerspark,will report later.
    Woody

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    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    I'd like to hear from Froggers who have done the electronic ignition on the D.

    Mine is a 1974 D Special with an SEV Marshall dizzy.

    Interested in your experience(s) and whether coil replacement has been worthwhile.

    Thx..
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    D Special 1974
    Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    1986 2CV6
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    DS23 1973 Pallas

  14. #14
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    1-2-3 ignition has been utterly reliable in the three years I have had my D special. The car was fitted with it ten years ago.
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    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    All sounds good, I'm not sure exactly which model suits the SEV Marshall, also, is changing the coil relevant?

    Thx
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    D Special 1974
    Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    1986 2CV6
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    DS23 1973 Pallas

  16. #16
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    I don't think that's an issue. It's the engine characteristics that are the key factor. Ducellier and SEV Marchall both manufactured dizzies to suit a particular model of DS engine. Both brands do the same job - as will the 123. The 123 ignition can be set for the right centrifugal advance curve for your particular model of DS.

    Looking at manual 814, a 74 D Special is a 'DV' vehicle and would have had either a SEV-Marchal A251 or a Ducellier 4291A or B dizzy. The Centrifugal advance characteristics of a DV vehicle are given by curve C11. So if you fit 123 to your 74 D Special you set it up for curve C11.
    Last edited by Budge; 9th October 2016 at 10:54 AM.

  17. #17
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    I carn,t believe it is so long since I started this thread.I now have had a powerspark in use for some time and no problems.I did however have some difficulties with installation.The kit I have used is a K8,this one they advertise on ebay for a DS21.When initially fitted the unit produced sparks OK but they where 45degrees out from where they should have been ie they occurred when the rotor was between 2 contacts.Thus I had to modify and redrill the Backing plate etc.to relocate the module.
    Woody
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    Thanx troops.
    Change coil?
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    D Special 1974
    Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    1986 2CV6
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    DS23 1973 Pallas

  19. #19
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    I seem to remember that both the Hot Spark and 1-2-3 either specified a coil resistance (maybe necessitating a change) or offered a new coil to suit. I bought a new coil together with the Hot Spark kit but am using a standard CX coil/ballast resistor set with the 1-2-3.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyk View Post
    Thanx troops.
    Change coil?
    You can find the spec. for DS 123 ignition here:
    123ignition electronic ignition systems for classic cars

    And a link to the fitting instructions here:
    http://www.123ignition.nl/pdf/123SWITCH4.pdf

    There is no mention of needing to change the coil. They're relatively cheap though. Changing it might give you more confidence that you have a strong spark.

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