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  1. #1
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    Default mystery road wheel

    I've attached a photo of a mystery wheel which I acquired some time ago in a batch of Citroen parts. It is 16"x4", 6 stud with a PCD around 240mm. It is well made albeit rather heavy - has a cast aluminium centre riveted to a steel rim. Cast into the centre is the inscription "Bramber Airlite Wheel, Made in England".
    Any thoughts?
    I originally thought that it may have been an aftermarket wheel for the very early Tractions, but I think that the PCD is wring for that application. More likely it has nothing to do with Citroens.
    roger

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    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    Hi Roger,

    That looks a lot like my Belgian Nivelles wheel - though obviously not as it's English made. But yes it has very similar construction it appears.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails mystery road wheel-11bl2.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Middlemoon.1 View Post
    Hi Roger,

    That looks a lot like my Belgian Nivelles wheel - though obviously not as it's English made. But yes it has very similar construction it appears.
    Well I didn't really expect to get a reply on such a esoteric subject - thanks Tim. Is the Belgian Nivelles wheel all steel or a aluminium centre with steel rim?
    roger

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    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    They're all steel Roger - confirmed when I had them blasted. But they do look related in some respects - in that they are two-piece I suppose. And the pattern is very similar. These Lambert Nivelles were delivered with my 51 model BL which I'm given is unusual. Yours sounds exotic with the aluminium - seems as though it must be off something a bit special. Yours also looks like it has six studs, mine are five. Early Bristol / Riley / Wolseley something like that?

    Best,

    Tim
    Last edited by Middlemoon.1; 18th January 2012 at 11:40 PM.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lhs2.1 View Post
    I've attached a photo of a mystery wheel which I acquired some time ago in a batch of Citroen parts. It is 16"x4", 6 stud with a PCD around 240mm. It is well made albeit rather heavy - has a cast aluminium centre riveted to a steel rim. Cast into the centre is the inscription "Bramber Airlite Wheel, Made in England".
    Any thoughts?
    I originally thought that it may have been an aftermarket wheel for the very early Tractions, but I think that the PCD is wring for that application. More likely it has nothing to do with Citroens.
    roger
    Hi Roger, I have seen that type of wheel before. Cast centres and steel rim. It was on a 1935 familiale that was in a wreckers yard in Keysborough many years ago. You may remember Ray Hobbs got hold of the 1836 Light 15 that accompanied it. He tried to trailer it home and was told by the police to un hook the trailer and leave it as he had no lighting on the trailer. When he went back it was gone!
    The Familiale was a Slough car central instruments two glove compartments etc etc and the rear doors were the early type that looked like mirrored front doors. At the time it was too rusty to do anything with. Ken Gilbert salvaged the wheels, steering gear and bits of the early rear axle assembly. It may be that your wheel came from this car. It is certainly the correct colour.
    Is it 155mm rim width? I believe that it should be
    Cheers Gerry
    BTW Ken has now changed his surname to Holmes-----------long story but "Elementary"
    Last edited by gerrypro; 19th January 2012 at 09:39 AM.

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    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    Do the familiales have a six stud pattern, Gerry? You sound absolutely on the money there.

    Tim

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    Some years ago Mel Carey helped some one import an early car from NZ.
    I think the fellows name was Alain and I think he was french.
    I know it had six stud wheels, pretty sure 2 scuttle vents , flat dash and the normale style big body but was probably an english car
    1950 Light 15 - Blanche 'Claude'
    1949 Light 15 - Noir 'Emilie'
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    1946

    Only the 11BL production is running although one 11B is put together for the Paris Salon autoshow. In may the cars get the louvred bonnet instead of the one with shutters after which the Pilote wheels are replaced by Michelin BM (Bonne Marche = Well Running) wheels which are fully closed. The bumpers get overriders and the doors get aluminium trim strips. The carburettor is modified and cars are now delivered with 5 wheels again. The knobs on the dashboard are now of the oval type with a letter engraved.
    It's possible they did run with 6stud wheels for a while

    There is some direct references to 6stud wheels, but only on the very early prototypes here:

    http://www.cats-citroen.net/citroen_...story_11b.html

    I didn't realise Jeroen had put up so much information on the traction. I'm pleased to see his father has kept his website online. Amazingly 4years has already nearly passed since he died.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Middlemoon.1 View Post
    Do the familiales have a six stud pattern, Gerry? You sound absolutely on the money there.

    Tim
    Yes Tim!
    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Hi Roger, I have seen that type of wheel before. Cast centres and steel rim. It was on a 1935 familiale that was in a wreckers yard in Keysborough many years ago. You may remember Ray Hobbs got hold of the 1836 Light 15 that accompanied it. He tried to trailer it home and was told by the police to un hook the trailer and leave it as he had no lighting on the trailer. When he went back it was gone!
    The Familiale was a Slough car central instruments two glove compartments etc etc and the rear doors were the early type that looked like mirrored front doors. At the time it was too rusty to do anything with. Ken Gilbert salvaged the wheels, steering gear and bits of the early rear axle assembly. It may be that your wheel came from this car. It is certainly the correct colour.
    Is it 155mm rim width? I believe that it should be
    Cheers Gerry
    BTW Ken has now changed his surname to Holmes-----------long story but "Elementary"
    According to Olivier de Serres' "Traction Avant Le Grand Livre" all 11 series Tractions had 6 stud wheels from Sept 34 to Feb 37. This would fit with your sighting of the 35 Familiale and Robin's recollection of the NZ import. I think that you are probably correct in your view that this wheel came from the Familiale. Can you confirm with Ken (Gilbert) Holmes what wheels he recovered from the Familiale?
    The rim width is around 100mm. It's the PCD that puzzles me - at about 240mm it's much larger than the 185 or so mm of the 5 stud wheels.
    I've attached a photo of the inside of the wheel for interest.
    Yes, I do recall the Ray Hobbs incident, what a tragedy!
    roger
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails mystery road wheel-dscn1522.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by lhs2.1 View Post
    According to Olivier de Serres' "Traction Avant Le Grand Livre" all 11 series Tractions had 6 stud wheels from Sept 34 to Feb 37. This would fit with your sighting of the 35 Familiale and Robin's recollection of the NZ import. I think that you are probably correct in your view that this wheel came from the Familiale. Can you confirm with Ken (Gilbert) Holmes what wheels he recovered from the Familiale?
    The rim width is around 100mm. It's the PCD that puzzles me - at about 240mm it's much larger than the 185 or so mm of the 5 stud wheels.
    I've attached a photo of the inside of the wheel for interest.
    Yes, I do recall the Ray Hobbs incident, what a tragedy!
    roger
    Excuse My Ignorance! What do you mean by PCD?
    The Wheel he recovered was stored at my place for a while at Bellara Drive! He collected all that stuff before we moved. It looked exactly like that.
    The Swedish spare parts book reproduction confirms the information from the "Grand Livre" on 11 series Tractions.
    With the rim measuring 100mm wide it would have to be for the 140mm tyres. That fits with what is supposed to have been fitted at the time.
    Do you have 4 more of those? It is quite a rarity!
    That familiale is another tale of missed opportunity to own a unique Traction.
    The 1938 coupe of Des Matthews!
    The 37 that partnered this familiale!
    The 55 Slough Commerciale!
    And a lovely 39 11CL3 that I missed by 2 weeks to save it from being crushed by a council tractor blade in Hawthorn!
    I also let a 1940 11CL4 slip through my fingers. I actually owned this car and still have one or two pics of it!
    They all seemed like far too much work at the time and I had nowhere to store them. Dad's place was mountain goat territory and all our cars but one had to be garaged on the street.
    Cheers Gerry

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    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Gerry, PCD stands for Pitch Circle Diameter. It's the diameter of a theoretical circle that passes through the centre of each of the studs or holes.

    Car wheels with the same hole count and PCD will usually be interchangeable, the only other factor being the offset.

    Just thought I'd answer the question.

    Cheers, Pottsy

    PS, your ignorance is excused, I'd been fiddling with cars for 30 odd years before I heard the term and wondered how I'd never even thought about it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Excuse My Ignorance! What do you mean by PCD?
    The Wheel he recovered was stored at my place for a while at Bellara Drive! He collected all that stuff before we moved. It looked exactly like that.
    The Swedish spare parts book reproduction confirms the information from the "Grand Livre" on 11 series Tractions.
    With the rim measuring 100mm wide it would have to be for the 140mm tyres. That fits with what is supposed to have been fitted at the time.
    Do you have 4 more of those? It is quite a rarity!
    That familiale is another tale of missed opportunity to own a unique Traction.
    The 1938 coupe of Des Matthews!
    The 37 that partnered this familiale!
    The 55 Slough Commerciale!
    And a lovely 39 11CL3 that I missed by 2 weeks to save it from being crushed by a council tractor blade in Hawthorn!
    I also let a 1940 11CL4 slip through my fingers. I actually owned this car and still have one or two pics of it!
    They all seemed like far too much work at the time and I had nowhere to store them. Dad's place was mountain goat territory and all our cars but one had to be garaged on the street.
    Cheers Gerry
    Pottsy has gracefully answered your question on pitch circle diameter.
    Ah yes, the ones that slipped through our hands.
    The '35 7 on the side of the road at Marysville (?)
    The early 11 Normale rolled down a hill on the Peninsula
    The '46 Slough L15 and the Rosalie that we parked under trees at Toolen Vale and never saw again.
    Yes, it was all too hard at the time, but at least we're still here to reminiscence on what might have been.
    roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by lhs2.1 View Post
    Pottsy has gracefully answered your question on pitch circle diameter.
    Ah yes, the ones that slipped through our hands.
    The '35 7 on the side of the road at Marysville (?)
    The early 11 Normale rolled down a hill on the Peninsula
    The '46 Slough L15 and the Rosalie that we parked under trees at Toolen Vale and never saw again.
    Yes, it was all too hard at the time, but at least we're still here to reminiscence on what might have been.
    roger
    That Slough '35 7A was up a bush track at Gladysdale on the way to Powelltown. It was a totally rusted out hulk but interesting none the less. I did salvage the makers plate from it. The number was 100,050. Slough production starts at 100,000. So this was the 50th car off the line. I have put that plate in a safe place. Now all that remains is to remember where the hell that safe place is????????
    I came across the rear bracket of the bonnet hinge the other day and can still remember where it is. Alzheimer's has not fully set in yet! As you know these were longer than the later type due to the twin scuttle vents fitted. Did you know that the front torsion bars on this car fixed to the splined pins of the lower link by a flange and two set screws? This type of fixing also carried the friction dampers forward of the cradle. A bit Heath Robinson compared to the later cars. No wonder they changed it so quickly.
    The other part I salvaged but eventually discarded was the right hand bonnet extension panel with the bulge to accommodate the worm and sector steering gear.
    Cheers Gerry
    BTW that 39 11CL3 belonged to one of the employees of Model Dairy where my mother worked. It had been left to the fellow by an aunt and was absolutely original and still very near immaculate. He drove it without sympathetic regard---it was just an old car to him. By The time I knew it had broken its gearbox and was for sale I got straight onto its trail----sadly I was too late. Navy blue duco and matching full blue leather interior ( including the pillars and door trims )
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails mystery road wheel-dsc03808.jpg  
    Last edited by gerrypro; 19th January 2012 at 07:28 PM.

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    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    What a great thread....it just goes to show what can come from thoughtfully posted little wheel puzzle! Some great stories. Good on you Roger and all the others!

    Tim

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    That Slough '35 7A was up a bush track at Gladysdale on the way to Powelltown. It was a totally rusted out hulk but interesting none the less. I did salvage the makers plate from it. The number was 100,050. Slough production starts at 100,000. So this was the 50th car off the line. I have put that plate in a safe place. Now all that remains is to remember where the hell that safe place is????????
    I came across the rear bracket of the bonnet hinge the other day and can still remember where it is. Alzheimer's has not fully set in yet! As you know these were longer than the later type due to the twin scuttle vents fitted. Did you know that the front torsion bars on this car fixed to the splined pins of the lower link by a flange and two set screws? This type of fixing also carried the friction dampers forward of the cradle. A bit Heath Robinson compared to the later cars. No wonder they changed it so quickly.
    The other part I salvaged but eventually discarded was the right hand bonnet extension panel with the bulge to accommodate the worm and sector steering gear.
    Cheers Gerry
    BTW that 39 11CL3 belonged to one of the employees of Model Dairy where my mother worked. It had been left to the fellow by an aunt and was absolutely original and still very near immaculate. He drove it without sympathetic regard---it was just an old car to him. By The time I knew it had broken its gearbox and was for sale I got straight onto its trail----sadly I was too late. Navy blue duco and matching full blue leather interior ( including the pillars and door trims )
    Fascinating history, Gerry. You would have to be the most reliable and knowledgeable Tractioniste in this part of the world.
    Talking about the departed, have a look at these. The grid is 10mm.
    A slab to anyone who can identify all six.
    roger
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails mystery road wheel-bucklemotorstag.jpg   mystery road wheel-citroen2.5litretag.jpg   mystery road wheel-citroen6ctag.jpg   mystery road wheel-citroen11atag.jpg   mystery road wheel-citroentag_4.jpg   mystery road wheel-citroenunknowntab_1.jpg  


  17. #17
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    pretty sure the buckle motors tag was added to aussie built ID19's, the black one here has half the citroen plate chopped away and the buckle motors plate added over the top.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lhs2.1 View Post
    Fascinating history, Gerry. You would have to be the most reliable and knowledgeable Tractioniste in this part of the world.
    Talking about the departed, have a look at these. The grid is 10mm.
    A slab to anyone who can identify all six.
    roger
    Impressive,
    The plate I had was the same as the one third from the right only it said 7A where yours says 11A. Gee I wish I could find it.
    I have another that Says 11CL2 Chassis 122281
    This is from my Father's 1938 car
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails mystery road wheel-dsc03809.jpg  

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    I have just received an email from Robin Dyke who had picked up on my comments about the 55 Commercial form the Slough factory. He has been doing more research and has come up with the chassis Identity of that car. Therefore it is no longer a rumour and I am totally vindicated. I am not just a crazy old crank running around tilting at windmills.
    Here is the excerpt from his email!

    "In 1955 just before they closed down,

    Slough had an order for 25 stretched cars for Australia.

    As I understand it their chassis serial numbers were 9-557001 to 9-557025.

    24 of these were what the French would call a Familiale,

    and we would call a Family Fifteen,

    that is 9 seats, 6 side windows and a big boot.

    Just 1 (9-557015) was what the French would call a Commerciale,

    that is 9 seats, 6 side windows and a hatch back.

    (There was a joke that all 25 had been ordered by an undertaker).

    I think the body shells were fully assembled in Paris,

    then shipped to Slough for finishing.

    (I have heard that the welding is typical of Paris rather than Slough).

    Shane it seems that the car that you have evidence of in Edenhope is the same car that I found. There was only one ever produced which makes me a bloody ignorant idiot for not rescuing it. In my defense there was precious little information about these cars in 1971.

    Cheers Gerry
    Last edited by gerrypro; 20th January 2012 at 09:15 AM.

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