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    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    Default second hand C4

    Any advice on second hand C4's. Journo's don't seem particularly fond of them, however I bought a VW that they enthused over and did not like the car in any way. A big disappointment. I'm looking for a reasonable handling, comfortable, reliable car. Does the vts come in a 2l diesel?.

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    The VTS did not sell as a diesel at all in Australia. The only 2l C4 HDi has, I believe, the same drivetrain as the first of the series 3 C5s (2l HDi and 6sp Aisin Warner box). Not many of those were imported and I believe are highly sought after. We nearly bought one but drove the C5 and went for the size and comfort.

    Other C4s come with the 1.6 HDi in manual or EGS box but sometimes with lower spec interior etc.
    Craig K
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    Quote Originally Posted by tasie C5 View Post
    Any advice on second hand C4's. Journo's don't seem particularly fond of them, however I bought a VW that they enthused over and did not like the car in any way. A big disappointment. I'm looking for a reasonable handling, comfortable, reliable car. Does the vts come in a 2l diesel?.

    Allan
    I drove a C4 'runout' diesel about 9 months ago and wasn't at all impressed. Living in Tassie you might have servicing problems too (like we do here) and parts have to be 'gotten in'.
    Have you looked at an Hyundai i30? My grand daughter bought on and it goes OK and is very 'European' feeling and has nice comfy seats - very 'French' feeling. Well priced, good w/tee and cheap running costs.
    Would be worth a look.

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    Default 2nd hand C4

    Hi
    we bought a '08 C4 with 60k's, 1.6 diesel with the funny 6sp auto/manual, 18 mths ago, thought I would never buy a euro car in my life (we're in our 60's), and can't fault it, it's a beauty, once you've got accustomed to the auto's slow changing, got 1300 kms from a tank on way to sydney. give us any questions

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    Default servicing

    any reputable mechanic can service the citroen, most have the programme on their computor for all types of vehicles

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    Fellow Frogger! CamM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tasie C5 View Post
    I'm looking for a reasonable handling, comfortable, reliable car. Does the vts come in a 2l diesel?
    The phase 1 VTS was built as both a 2.0 petrol and a 2.0 HDi, however as Craig has indicated, the diesel variant never made it to Australia. If you're specifically after a diesel C4, then the VTS is off the shopping list. However, if you don't mind petrol then the VTS is worth a look.

    Regarding handling, comfort etc, it's worthwhile knowing that the VTS utilises "sports" suspension and therefore sits on lowered and stiffened springs compared to the rest of the C4 family. It handles quite nicely - albeit a tad skittish over VERY bumpy roads - but it is certainly a harder ride than the other C4 variants. That being said, I wouldn't call it uncomfortable. I've owned my VTS for almost 6 years now and I'm still very happy with it as my daily drive.
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    For what is worth
    We have had our C4 1.6 Egs coming up for 5 years. Bought as a demo with 4700 ks and now has 73000 ks. Annual service only .(service now 6 monthly on newer models , Dealer has to make money!!) Still has original brake pads and discs and original tyres. Dealer said both will probably need attention this year (annual service due July)ie lasted 5 years(80000 Kms). Only issues have been a speed control/cruise control switch(known fault) replaced under warranty and a cooling fan sensor switch(known fault) replaced 6 months ago ($ 200) Consistantly does 4.7L / 100k.
    The aussie auto press consistantly bag french cars of all shades and love the germans.
    We have a friend with a VW Golf of the same vintage and that has had a number of issues not least the cost of parts and service.We had a Golf hire car in Europe 3 years ago and found the ergonomics quite uncomfortable .Not often mention by the journos as they do not often drive them daily in all traffic conditions for a month.
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    I drive a VTS also and would happily reccommend it , the long gears make driving in traffic a lot less of a chore than any other manual i've driven with fewer gearchanges. The seats are very supportive and supremely comfortable and probably best of the series, better than on the 2.0l exclusive leather that i tried. The big but is the suspension, you can either live with it or not. The upshot of that is the sports car like grip, handling and the performance from the 130kW engine. I've had no issues with mine other than having to replace brake light bulbs. If you want comfy i'd go for the 2.0L Exclusive or diesel exclusive and put the VTS seats in it

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    In short, my pick would be the 2.0 HDi 6 speed auto, but it's going to cost you a bit more than some of the petrol models because they were expensive to begin with and most were well optioned. A friend bought one recently for quite a bit under $20K and I think he bought very well considering most were pushing $40K new.

    Most early C4's had quite a harsh rear seat ride, the VTS especially, but that's fairly normal for many cars in that class. Later cars seem to be better.

    Water pumps on earlier petrol engines are a bit weak, but most will have had the original plastic pump replaced by now. So listen for noise at the timing belt end and also look for coolant leakage there and elsewhere. If you buy a petrol auto, you will get the AL4 gearbox, which can be a love/hate situation. It's been talked about elsewhere in detail, but is probably the most important thing to check on a used auto C4 given the cost of a rebuild. The 2.0 HDi is the only auto model in the C4 range with the much better AM6 gearbox, the drivetrain being shared with the C4 Picasso and C5 models.

    The 1.6 HDi only came here as a 5 speed manual and then as the 6 speed EGS, which is essentially an automated conventional manual geabox. The EGS also gained a particle filter (as had the 2.0HDi), so if looking at a high km car, say 150K+, you will want to know when you will be up for a new Eolys bag. The 1.6 HDi tends to be more intrusive than some other configurations, but there is often excessive vibration from the air filter box due to worn mounts - easily fixed. Not so easily fixed on a 1.6HDi is a poor service history. If the oil has not been changed regularly using a suitable synthetic oil, be very wary of the car as turbo failure is more likely without proper maintenance.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    We recently purchased my mothers really low milage C4 HDI EGS. The drivetrain in it is fabulous. I'm amazed how good the EGS is at picking the correct gear nearly all the time (given it can't foresee what the driver is about to do .... or the cliff like hill your about to climb etc...). The electric steering is brilliant, nicely weighted excellent steering lock. The EGS is only about a million times better than the crappy slugomatic they fit to most PSA cars (the AL$). About the only thing that would be a hell of a lot better than the EGS is a proper manual gearbox.

    The ergonomics are quite good, the speedo display unit works incredibly well, even in very bright sunshine. The fuel economy is brilliant. My wife loves the car ....

    Given I've driven a variety of CX's, DS and GS's since I got my license ............. It's not me .... crashy ride ...

    The talk of "handling" and "getting the sports version" is so utterly stupid I couldn't even be bothered with it. The limits of the standard car are so incredibly high, you'll never approach them on a public road. The bog standard crashy riding one we have ( this is the good riding one ... gee's the vts's must be bloody shocking ) is bad enough. Just think how good it would be with GS like suspension under it... Given it weighs close to a DS it would ride brilliantly if they'd bothered to fit proper suspension... Another hate is the brakes, there the most hidiously over assisted impossible to modulate horrible brakes I've ever used ( ok, ok ... the Xantia and XM with springs under there brake pedals are maybe worse, but not much). Doesn't anyone at PSA actually drive the cars before trying to sell them to the public

    Another big negative is I find a Citroen CX turbo with the huge picnic shelf spoiler on the back, 2 kids seats in the back .... and a bloody caravan behind it easier to park. You simply cannot see *any* corner of the C4. I'd rather park a 5meter long DS in a tiny supermarket carpark (where it doesn't fit) than the C4 that easily fits. My 25year old CX is also quieter than it at highway speeds. The tire noise is very loud at speed... The diesel is a little clattery and noticable when cold... But not at all intrusive and most likely not noticeable to the majority of people. Certainly you would struggle to pick it's a diesel 99% of the time.

    If it was a car for me ................ I'd get rid of the C4 tomorrow, and use the money to buy petrol for a decent car .... like the tired stinky old CX I have .. It's a million times the car to drive in just about every aspect except fuel economy.

    If it's a car for your wife ....... Go For it! Just dont ever drive it yourself..... You'll end up with the 2nd non-remote key .............. Which means every god damn time you drive the car, you'll have to walk to the passenger door to lock and unlock the car because poogoe didn't bother to fit a drivers door lock in it. Sounds like nothing but it p!$$es you off no end if you drive the car more than once every blue moon.

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    I agree, I am the 2nd driver and have the key, now trained to go to the passengers door.
    The ride is a bit harsh but this seems to be pretty normal in small/medium European cars I suppose ride v handling.
    We will get the timing belt done this year (5 years /100000Ks) In the UK theirs seem to last 10 years or a 100000 miles (Yes miles!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Given I've driven a variety of CX's, DS and GS's since I got my license ............. It's not me .... crashy ride ...

    The talk of "handling" and "getting the sports version" is so utterly stupid I couldn't even be bothered with it. The limits of the standard car are so incredibly high, you'll never approach them on a public road. The bog standard crashy riding one we have ( this is the good riding one ... gee's the vts's must be bloody shocking ) is bad enough. Just think how good it would be with GS like suspension under it... Given it weighs close to a DS it would ride brilliantly if they'd bothered to fit proper suspension... Another hate is the brakes, there the most hidiously over assisted impossible to modulate horrible brakes I've ever used ( ok, ok ... the Xantia and XM with springs under there brake pedals are maybe worse, but not much). Doesn't anyone at PSA actually drive the cars before trying to sell them to the public

    Another big negative is I find a Citroen CX turbo with the huge picnic shelf spoiler on the back, 2 kids seats in the back .... and a bloody caravan behind it easier to park. You simply cannot see *any* corner of the C4. I'd rather park a 5meter long DS in a tiny supermarket carpark (where it doesn't fit) than the C4 that easily fits.
    (Waving white flag of peace)

    With all due respect...

    I don't think that anyone could successfully argue that any C4 variant can beat the ride quality of a Cit with hydropneumatic suspension. I wouldn't try to convince anyone that the C4 offered the softest ride around, however I've driven far worse in my time. To be fair, the ride is pretty similar to other makes/models of its ilk. The VTS is not much harder than the standard C4 variants and it's quite easy to live with as a daily drive.

    As for the brakes? Well, I'll admit to almost throwing myself (head first) through the front windscreen the very first time I applied them in my VTS. However, it took next to no time to adapt to using them and I've found them to work exceptionally well. I never have issues adapting to the brakes in any other makes/models I've driven whilst owning the VTS, and it's never a problem when jumping back into it. Put simply: Yes, they're snatchy compared to other cars, but you can adapt to them in no time at all.

    I can't speak for parking the C4 hatch, or a big old Cit, but I can honestly say I've never found parking the VTS to be an issue (even with its rather small rear windscreen and big blindspot C-pillars). It's not the easiest car I've ever had to park, but it certainly isn't the most difficult!!

    That's just my

    Quote Originally Posted by bobsie View Post
    We will get the timing belt done this year (5 years /100000Ks) In the UK theirs seem to last 10 years or a 100000 miles (Yes miles!)
    Part of the reason for this will be the Citroen Maintenance guide's recommended timing belt change intervals for normal conditions as opposed to severe conditions. I believe Australia is classed as "severe" conditions. It goes without saying that one should always err on the side of caution with the timing belt. Better to accept an increase in the servicing cost rather than risk destroying the engine with a failed belt...
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    I'd just like it noted, remembered, emblazoned across the sky even, that Shane actually said some positive things about a post CX Citroen. I think we should mark January 16th as an annual day of celebration.

    Neither of us had any probs parking the C4 in the countries we drove in Europe - remembering too that we were at a disadvantage as we were on the other side of the car from normal. Well OK, there was one time in a small village in n/e France when we had to parallel park on the left side of the street in a tight spot and it was a busy one way street.
    Craig K
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    Hi tasie C5,
    Before your C4 question ends up in some DS/CX/GS better or worse fight, I can only say my C4 HDI EGS has been fun and reliable to drive for the last year. I bought it 2nd hand 18months old, were a little worried about the ďusualĒ Citroen stories. Have done 1 service with a French car service place, all good. Only thing I would like to improve on is the seat, does not offer great supportÖunless you get the full leather / electric seat option, they are nice and would suit Tassie. You can be boring and go for the Hyundai / Toyota or have some fun with a more special car.
    Cheers

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    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    Thank you all. One has to ask the question......Is there a best car buy, in the mid $10,000 range that is enjoyable to drive, gives great economy, comfortable and stylish. This is for 40ish son who would be looking for something in the next few months. I tried to suggest a 2006 or 7 C5hdi but I believe it is too staid for him.
    Allan

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    A VTS as currently advertised by Ivan in the classifieds would probably fit the brief well. The 2.0Hdi is probably a little over-budget.

    What sort of driving? Long distances or just a few short trips? I would prefer petrol for short city driving conditions. Does he need 4 doors or can he live with 2 and a hatch? 2 doors with a family could be a pain.

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    Default 1.6 hdi c4

    My wife has a 1.6 Diesel with the 6 speed automated manual "auto" box....It is a great package in every way.

    Strong performance..the gear shift is a bit wierd at first but a few weeks down the track and it's "normal"....BTW select manual mode push the sport button and it gets quite snappy....

    Good road holding...steering and brakes....plenty of room for a car this size...and a good ride by todays standards...16 inch tyres (wide too) notwithstanding....

    Even I like driving it...and I ride old BMW bikes and drive an R10 or a 403 Pug :-)

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tasie C5 View Post
    Thank you all. One has to ask the question......Is there a best car buy, in the mid $10,000 range that is enjoyable to drive, gives great economy, comfortable and stylish. This is for 40ish son who would be looking for something in the next few months. I tried to suggest a 2006 or 7 C5hdi but I believe it is too staid for him.
    Allan
    enjoyable to drive, comfortable, g̶o̶o̶d̶ ̶f̶u̶e̶l̶ ̶e̶c̶o̶n̶o̶m̶y̶ and stylish in tassie ?? I'd be heading straight to look at this one then

    F/S Citroen Ė CX25 GTi Ė 1985 Ė Tas

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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    tasie C5,
    I got my C4 for $15K with only 56000km on the clock, looking away from Citroen, but still a little different Saab 9-3, full of safety gear and feels like a solid car to drive, comes in both petrol and diesel, diesel will be hard to find for $15K, but heaps of petrol's around.

    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by flightdeck View Post
    tasie C5,
    I got my C4 for $15K with only 56000km on the clock, looking away from Citroen, but still a little different Saab 9-3, full of safety gear and feels like a solid car to drive, comes in both petrol and diesel, diesel will be hard to find for $15K, but heaps of petrol's around.
    Just make sure to avoid the 9-3 convertible like the plague!! I always loved the look of them and jumped at the opportunity to drive the company director's one a few years back. The honeymoon was over quick smart thanks to terrible handling and the distinct impression that the chassis was no stronger (or solid) than a tin can. It certainly sounded like it was made of tin!! Having said that, it was great in a straight line once the turbo kicked in
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    I drove a new 9-3 convertible from Sydney to Perth with a good mate some years ago and it did the job really well. Things can start to float around the back seat above 80 with the roof down. The car was sent back by train though and I was entirely 'over' driving anywhere much for some time after that. I know there was a problem with the roof, some minor trim was a bit suspect and there was certainly some scuttle shake, but it was a fun car overall. I never saw it as a performance car and the turbo is a pretty lazy one.

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    Hi there,

    I reckon the C4 is essentially a great little car, and I traded our c5 in for one a few years ago.

    My wife drives it, and our is 2.0 petrol exclusive auto with glass roof, leathe and all bells and whistles.

    A few things to watch:

    1. A problem with a lot of these cars is the plastic panel at base of windscreen which covers wiper motors, and windscreen rubbers slips off and falls down in time. Water can get in from the gap that is created, and although I have not had any problems as a result, I have heard that it can stuff around with electrics as the computer isn't too fa away.
    2. AL4 which is on ours, is ok but not ideal. I have endured it on Xantia (rough on this car), and C5 four cylinder (better, but not great).
    3. I had an instrument console replaced under warranty, and this is right in front of steering wheel and indicates which gear you are in when driving. Also a crook rear parking sensor, also down under warranty.

    Shane, I'm not with you on the parking completely, but certainly at the front. If you don't have sensors at front, I could imagine some damage occurring very easily. Ours fortunately has front and back, and what really pissed me off was when the back one stuffed up, I backed in to a fence, as was so used to having the system working!!

    Brakes are fine, and due to the lack of weight, they last and last.

    Fuel economy - shithouse. My old c5 four cylinder petrol was much better. That thing could get 900 ks plus out of a tank in highway running. The C4, lucky if you get early to mid sevens and the car is so much smaller and lighter. Around town, about early 500s from the tank under normal gentle driving.

    Handling is excellent and the digital display is sensational. Rear seat is ordinary, but I use as a workhorse and can fit a huge amount of junk in back with seats down.

    Like others have suggested, I to think the C4 2litre hdi in auto is the way t go, but they were way too expensive and I can see why there are so few out and about. The EGS, I have driven a few of these as loan cars and frankly they make me a bit motion sick, and I was glad to get out and get back into my conventional auto. The sensation of that change is really weird, but the economy really is outstanding.

    Chris M

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    Quote Originally Posted by tasie C5 View Post
    Thank you all. One has to ask the question......Is there a best car buy, in the mid $10,000 range that is enjoyable to drive, gives great economy, comfortable and stylish. This is for 40ish son who would be looking for something in the next few months. I tried to suggest a 2006 or 7 C5hdi but I believe it is too staid for him.
    Allan
    Hi Allan

    Take a look at the classified section I have a metallic red '08 VTS up for sale in Sydney. She's in very good condition and I'm flexible on the price!

    Ivan

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    Quote Originally Posted by qmusic View Post
    Hi there,

    I reckon the C4 is essentially a great little car, and I traded our c5 in for one a few years ago.

    My wife drives it, and our is 2.0 petrol exclusive auto with glass roof, leathe and all bells and whistles.

    A few things to watch:

    1. A problem with a lot of these cars is the plastic panel at base of windscreen which covers wiper motors, and windscreen rubbers slips off and falls down in time. Water can get in from the gap that is created, and although I have not had any problems as a result, I have heard that it can stuff around with electrics as the computer isn't too fa away.
    2. AL4 which is on ours, is ok but not ideal. I have endured it on Xantia (rough on this car), and C5 four cylinder (better, but not great).
    3. I had an instrument console replaced under warranty, and this is right in front of steering wheel and indicates which gear you are in when driving. Also a crook rear parking sensor, also down under warranty.

    Shane, I'm not with you on the parking completely, but certainly at the front. If you don't have sensors at front, I could imagine some damage occurring very easily. Ours fortunately has front and back, and what really pissed me off was when the back one stuffed up, I backed in to a fence, as was so used to having the system working!!

    Brakes are fine, and due to the lack of weight, they last and last.

    Fuel economy - shithouse. My old c5 four cylinder petrol was much better. That thing could get 900 ks plus out of a tank in highway running. The C4, lucky if you get early to mid sevens and the car is so much smaller and lighter. Around town, about early 500s from the tank under normal gentle driving.

    Handling is excellent and the digital display is sensational. Rear seat is ordinary, but I use as a workhorse and can fit a huge amount of junk in back with seats down.

    Like others have suggested, I to think the C4 2litre hdi in auto is the way t go, but they were way too expensive and I can see why there are so few out and about. The EGS, I have driven a few of these as loan cars and frankly they make me a bit motion sick, and I was glad to get out and get back into my conventional auto. The sensation of that change is really weird, but the economy really is outstanding.

    Chris M
    Next time you drive an EGS .... THink of it as a manual gearbox with an exceptional driver swapping the cogs for you .......... To move off on a steep hill.... expect the slight delay while the clutch is being engaged (just like if you were letting the pedal out yourself). Expect the power to be chopped on gearchanges (you wouldn't change gear yourself without lifting off right ?). To a passenger if feels like a car with a manual gearbox, they notice nothing. To a driver, especially someone who drives only automatics it'll feel horrible at first. After a few days you don't notice anything abnormal about it at all.

    Also try pulling it back to gears... I quite often drop it back a gear manually to take advantage of engine braking. I've driven cars quite often with tired or dead synchros and matching the revs perfectly is quite difficult, especially in modern cars without heavy flywheels. The EGS does it perfectly everytime without fail, particually if you bump it back to first, it'll give the motor a huge rev to match the revs, and pop the clutch at the perfect time so no "thump" is put through the car as the drive is re-engaged.

    It's a million miles from perfect, but as a robotic manual gearbox it's quite amazing it can mostly work quite well. Calling it a clutchless manual is wrong IMO. It has a clutch ... it just not being operated by you using a pedal

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger
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    It's also worth noting that the EGS has a dual mass flywheel, which is basically a 2-piece unit with springs between the two parts. If looking at an EGS, make sure it's not knocking as it's an expensive replacement job. It has a clutch, just like the Sensodrive and almost any other manual and they do eventually wear out. I'd read that Subaru also used dual-mass flywheels on some models and ha to replace quite a few. If it required a second flywheel, they'd fit a conventional single mass type.

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