DS fuel consumption
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Default DS fuel consumption

    I have done a search of the site and found little reference to this. One of the joys of the old long stroke ID19's I owned in the seventies was the fantastic fuel economy even at high cruising speeds. Way higher than would be legal today.

    Much as I enjoy my DS23 5 speed carby it is a sadness that there is no way it will come close to the ID19. Part of the problem of course is that modern traffic is faster off the mark and there are far more traffic lights so around town it will always be thirsty.

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    I have been working on getting the city consumption down. It was at around 17l/100 which included many short trips and a good few uses of the choke. I installed a carby kit and gave it a thorough clean and adjust. Air filter clean and all fluids maintained. Another go at stroboscopic ignition timing and tappet adjustment has certainly smoothed things out and the last fill showed a round town figure of 13.4l/100. I found a 1976 book listing city figures for the DS23 at 14/100 city and 11.7 touring. Then I saw Mort Subite report 9.3/100 from his DS23 Safari!

    My question is what is attainable? I know driving style is the major influence (and I will never win any competitions there!) but has anyone found what if anything will improve figures? 123 ignition?
    Michael
    Member, Citroen Car Club NSW

    DS23 Pallas 5 sp. "Francoise" , BX19TRi Auto "Jacques Dutronc" , Teardrop Trailer "The Toad", BMW R65 "Rosamund"
    In the past: Renault 750, Dauphine, R4, R8, R10, Peugeot 504 Familiale, ID 19 (x2), Safari (x2)

  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I bet if you ask Mort what his usual fuel consumption is .....................................

    I'd be happy with what your getting now. It's the same as most CX's will get too. The old motor may have been an "economy" motor in it's day, but these days it's just hugely thirsty and massively underpowered for it's fuel usage .

    It could be worse, you could have a wife that thinks no car in the world uses as much fuel as a red Citroen CX turbo ................................... (I just get ranted at if I say every other car it's size ever made, including the DS, camrys, magnas, fowlcans, commonbores ...etc... use as much fuel as the CX ).

    seeya,
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelr View Post
    I have done a search of the site and found little reference to this. One of the joys of the old long stroke ID19's I owned in the seventies was the fantastic fuel economy even at high cruising speeds. Way higher than would be legal today.

    Much as I enjoy my DS23 5 speed carby it is a sadness that there is no way it will come close to the ID19. Part of the problem of course is that modern traffic is faster off the mark and there are far more traffic lights so around town it will always be thirsty.

    I have been working on getting the city consumption down. It was at around 17l/100 which included many short trips and a good few uses of the choke. I installed a carby kit and gave it a thorough clean and adjust. Air filter clean and all fluids maintained. Another go at stroboscopic ignition timing and tappet adjustment has certainly smoothed things out and the last fill showed a round town figure of 13.4l/100. I found a 1976 book listing city figures for the DS23 at 14/100 city and 11.7 touring. Then I saw Mort Subite report 9.3/100 from his DS23 Safari!

    My question is what is attainable? I know driving style is the major influence (and I will never win any competitions there!) but has anyone found what if anything will improve figures? 123 ignition?
    Michael,

    If the carb kit included a new needle valve and seat that is the most likely reason fuel usage improve so dramatically

    There are a few things you can do if you want to play around a bit. Keep in mind that making changes to lean out the mixture a bit can cause problems if the engine is not in good shape, timing is off (to advanced) and/or cooling system is not working well.

    1) The air correction jets on the cars tended to be bit on the small side. These are the two jets screwed into the upper face of the lower body and hold the emulsion tubes in place. With a 23 engine in decent shape try installing a 1.65mm air correction jet for the main barrel - the 'normal' one will typically gage out in the 1.30-135mm range. This will lean out the mixture under normal driving conditions when the engine is above around 2000-2200 rpm or so.

    2) Double check the main jet for the primary barrel and ensure that it is, indeed, 1.15mm and that the low speed (secondary jet) for the main barrel is, indeed, 0.50mm

    3) Verify float position. Having the float set even just a bit high in the needle valve closed position will richen the mixture. OTOH having it set a bit low can cause stalling on inclines and under prolonged WOT operation.

    Regarding 123's - if the original distributor is in good mechanical condition the only advantage of a 123 is the ability of playing around with advance curves . My 72 Pallas has a 123, my 69 1/2 SW (Brake/Safari) has the mechanical distributor with a Pertronix pick up module installed (replaces the points). The 72 has a modified 2.1 engine (9.1:1 compression), the Brake a has rebuilt 2.3 engine installed (not sure of mileage on the rebuild).

    Currently my 72 Pallas gets in mixed driving (Los Angeles, CA) about 10.5L/100 - the Brake just under 11L/100. On open roads the Pallas, typically, gets 9.5L/100. The Brake has not been on a long trip yet after rebuilding its carb about two months ago (have only had it since July of last year) - and its mileage was terrible, which was the reason for the putting in a rebuilt unit.

    One more thing - double check the idle mixture screw setting. This is one area of the Weber carb set up that is very easy to get wrong. Follow the book about setting and remember to do it with the engine HOT. Not warm, but heated up after about 15 k's of driving. Setting at just 'warm' engine/coolant temps will lead to excessive richness when the engine is at normal operating temps. When set the that mixture screw should be between 2 to 3 turns from seated. If more or less than that it means the idle jet (the one facing away from the engine) is either to large or to small.

    Steve
    Last edited by Citroenfan; 14th January 2012 at 04:19 AM. Reason: Adding info

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    A friend of me here in south africa just had a cross country trip with his ds and a trailer and the family involves lots of mountain passes . At a constant 110km/h he got 11.1l/100km which I think is not too bad. I get 10l/100km with my gasflowed 2.1 engine. But my driving speed is quite a bit higher. Still want to check consumption at a constant 120 km/h

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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    The road test compilation books, which I am sure you have read, confirm the increase in fuel consumption over the years of DS manufacture, due to more powerful engines and lower gearing. I think what you are down to is pretty close to what you should get. Mort's figure is definitely from a country run, I would say it is impossible to beat 10 in the city. It depends a lot on the type of city driving you do, a lot of stop start can really put up the consumption.

    While my machine is not a D it has the same engine with the advantage of EFI and the disadvantage of an auto box all in a slightly more aerodynamic body. Since the 11 May 2011 it has averaged 11.05 with a best of 9.21 and a worst of 11.97. I drive 40km to work each day, If it was a shorter trip I know it would be much worse.

    The data is recorded in an iPhone app called Gas Cubby. It is very good and I think it is also available for Android devices. I recommend recording consumption long term some way (this is the easiest) so you can get a picture of what improves consumption.

    Time to take the D on a run to Canberra I'd say, if you stick to the speed limits I think you should get into the 9s
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    Yes the old ID's are great on fuel. I generally get around 28mpg in my 1960 ID. The 23 DS 5 Speed gives me 27mpg but that is all on country roads, the reason being with 5th gear, it's "long legged" like an ID. The only setback is that it requires premium grade unleaded, so it doesn't "Ping". I'm loathe to change things as it runs "like a Rocket". Maybe, the fact that it runs on premium grade, is that it is running so efficienly therefore giving such good fuel consumption. Michael

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    FYI

    28 mpg = 10.1l/100km
    27 mpg = 10.4l/100km

    12l/100km = 25.5 mpg
    9.2l/100km = 30.7 mpg
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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Thank you all for your input. I will see what results I get over the longer term. Next step is to take her for a run on the "open road" (remember those?) and see what the result looks like. There are too many variables around town to be able to compare and modern urban traffic engineering seems to be hell bent on reducing fuel efficiency.

    I had another look at spark plugs and whilst three look perfect the No.4 had a trace of soot so a new set of plug leads would be a good idea. Despite fitting an inline filter I found a deposit of very fine dust (central NSW by colour!) in the float bowl so a new filter is also in place.

    Fuel consumption is more than academic as I am finding I use the DS in preference to my more modern cars for most trips. I know I should not complain as at least my DS is not suffering from depreciation and I get a huge boost of enjoyment as a bonus.
    Michael
    Member, Citroen Car Club NSW

    DS23 Pallas 5 sp. "Francoise" , BX19TRi Auto "Jacques Dutronc" , Teardrop Trailer "The Toad", BMW R65 "Rosamund"
    In the past: Renault 750, Dauphine, R4, R8, R10, Peugeot 504 Familiale, ID 19 (x2), Safari (x2)

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    Morts 9.3 was a country drive from Sydney to Bandon Grove via Cessnock and Dungog.
    2 passengers, luggage for 4 days - and a chainsaw.
    In Sydney city driving I avoid putting my boot in, as its just another 30 seconds to the next red traffic light.
    It's a 23 5speed Safari.

    PS: I only ever use the highest PULP (98) in all my cars. as the first option - if no 98 then enough premium 95 to get me to the next 98 outlet.
    Last edited by Mort Subite; 26th January 2012 at 10:57 PM.
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    My ds 23 ie 5spd has a 123 and a unifilter, always use premium and valve protection oil. The best I have got is 11l/100 freeway, mostly I'm between 13 & 15l/100 combined but I'm a bit of a lead foot.


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  11. #11
    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelr View Post
    I have been working on getting the city consumption down. It was at around 17l/100 which included many short trips and a good few uses of the choke. I installed a carby kit and gave it a thorough clean and adjust. Air filter clean and all fluids maintained. Another go at stroboscopic ignition timing and tappet adjustment has certainly smoothed things out and the last fill showed a round town figure of 13.4l/100.
    My question is what is attainable? I know driving style is the major influence (and I will never win any competitions there!) but has anyone found what if anything will improve figures? 123 ignition?
    Good news! I fitted new plug leads and tweaked carby settings. I also advanced the ignition a little more and still no pinging (running 98 pulp).

    The latest fill shows 11.6l/100km. I think any further improvement will need me to re-evaluate my driving style.
    Michael
    Member, Citroen Car Club NSW

    DS23 Pallas 5 sp. "Francoise" , BX19TRi Auto "Jacques Dutronc" , Teardrop Trailer "The Toad", BMW R65 "Rosamund"
    In the past: Renault 750, Dauphine, R4, R8, R10, Peugeot 504 Familiale, ID 19 (x2), Safari (x2)

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    You're on the money I think Michael.
    City driving conditions vary incredibly and achieving 11.6l/100ks is respectable for sure.

    Interested to have your results from a country or freeway run, just for a true results comparison of your efforts to date.

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    My ID21 Safari regularly returns 10l per 100km on a country run and I'm happy with that. Its a 4 speed box but I think has a different diff to the likes of a 4 speed D Special.
    Citroen Car Club of New South Wales member.

    My Citroen ID21F can be seen here http://www.flickr.com/photos/frontdr...7605999522616/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mort Subite View Post
    Morts 9.3 was a country drive from Sydney to Bandon Grove via Cessnock and Dungog.
    2 passengers, luggage for 4 days - and a chainsaw.
    Is that for real?

    How could anyone use a chainsaw to cut...fuel consumption?

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    Fellow Frogger! Bruce Llewellyn's Avatar
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    Default Fuel consumption

    Quote Originally Posted by richo View Post
    You're on the money I think Michael.
    City driving conditions vary incredibly and achieving 11.6l/100ks is respectable for sure.

    Interested to have your results from a country or freeway run, just for a true results comparison of your efforts to date.
    2175 cc 4 speed D speciale with 1985 cc speciale carby, but with a Paris Rhone dizzy with vacuum advance from a 1980 Puegeot 504.

    12l /100km with the usual mix of 90 km highway, 30 km in town. Points and plugs checked / adjusted according to the handbook. (5000 km from memory)

    CX 2400 CMatic, best 40 mpg- worst 17mpg...

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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DS fuel consumption-mpg.jpg  

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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    What a lead foot! Back in 1960 the old long stroke ID19 gave fantastic mileage, especially given the much easier traffic conditions.
    Michael
    Member, Citroen Car Club NSW

    DS23 Pallas 5 sp. "Francoise" , BX19TRi Auto "Jacques Dutronc" , Teardrop Trailer "The Toad", BMW R65 "Rosamund"
    In the past: Renault 750, Dauphine, R4, R8, R10, Peugeot 504 Familiale, ID 19 (x2), Safari (x2)

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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DS fuel consumption-d20mpg2.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelr View Post
    What a lead foot! Back in 1960 the old long stroke ID19 gave fantastic mileage, especially given the much easier traffic conditions.

    It was probably a lot of rural driving too.

    MPG about the same in his next car (my 1972 DSuper) [edit - well a little worse]


    year 2005 When I got the car 17-18mpg

    2007 - New carb 26mpg (theory being that when the engine was rebuilt to 2175cc capacity in 1995 some jet/ hole was roughly drilled out (for increased capacity) rather than replaced. Now has old carby off a 2175cc car - much better economy.

    March 2008 - 123 ignition installed 28mpg

    May 2008 - New ignition leads installed - 29mpg (33mpg on a long trip)
    Last edited by DSuper; 10th March 2012 at 10:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSuper View Post
    March 2008 - 123 ignition installed 28mpg

    Inadvertantly answered OP's question here.

    Yes, economy improved with 123 ignition but some would argue that a rebuilt well tuned dizzy & points would do the same for economy.

    Engine probably smoother at higher revs with 123 ignition, and I hoped this system would be maintainance free longer term.

  21. #21
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    Update.
    A Sunday/Monday trip from Sydney to Nelson Bay return. DS23Safari returned 10.2L/100K.
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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    I little trip up to the blue mountains with the NSW Citroen Car Club was a round trip of 260km, about 60 of which was getting across Sydney and back. Some of the time in the mountains I was pedalling hard to keep up with Mr Schenk's "Big Six"!

    Pleased with the result of 10.6l/100.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DS fuel consumption-dsc_0604_800x491.jpg  
    Michael
    Member, Citroen Car Club NSW

    DS23 Pallas 5 sp. "Francoise" , BX19TRi Auto "Jacques Dutronc" , Teardrop Trailer "The Toad", BMW R65 "Rosamund"
    In the past: Renault 750, Dauphine, R4, R8, R10, Peugeot 504 Familiale, ID 19 (x2), Safari (x2)

  23. #23
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I would have thought a DS23 would leave a big 6 for dead
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I would have thought a DS23 would leave a big 6 for dead
    I think you might be right.

    It is however amazing how well Tractions cope with modern road conditions and traffic speeds and the Big Six is no slouch.
    Michael
    Member, Citroen Car Club NSW

    DS23 Pallas 5 sp. "Francoise" , BX19TRi Auto "Jacques Dutronc" , Teardrop Trailer "The Toad", BMW R65 "Rosamund"
    In the past: Renault 750, Dauphine, R4, R8, R10, Peugeot 504 Familiale, ID 19 (x2), Safari (x2)

  25. #25
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Llewellyn View Post

    CX 2400 CMatic, best 40 mpg- worst 17mpg...
    What cliff face did it fall from when it was getting 40mpg . Over 20years of driving CX's the best I've ever got (from a petrol engined) CX is 34mpg from the high geared petrol turbo. The C-matic **never** returned better than 25mpg, no matter how easy the running It's one thirsty slug! 22mpg was the norm almost regardless of usage.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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