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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Icon11 Citro Motors or Car of France

    Hello, I am new to this. I bought a Citroen unregistered. I need to get Road Worthy Certificate and register this vehicle.
    Car is drivable but I can see Hydraulic oil is leaking from passenger side under the car. I think breaking system is sharing same oil so it will be dangerous to drive. I was thinking to get a permit from VIC road and drive there.
    Engine starts just one push of button without any problem.
    Do you think it will be very expensive repair?
    I have visited both of these garages and they are both helpful and friendly.
    Any bad experiences with those people?

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    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Seeing that no one's lept to help out, I thought I might at least get the ball rolling.

    I bought a car that was serviced by Cars of France for many years and had to spend a lot of money and time getting it sorted out properly, from the missing radiator bracket to the sump plug that looked like it came from a pergola and various bits in-between. Some might not be as pedantic or particular and accept such misgivings or not even recognise them as such, and hence one man's Joseph is a another man's Joe when it comes to mechanics.

    The mechanical work done on the car prior to me owning it gave me the impression that perhaps the workshop wasn't highly geared for older Citroens (in my case at the time a DS 21 Pallas with hydraulic gear-change). This scenario is common in Brisbane. You'd take a C6 to one place, and a Traction to another.

    As a curio, what model Citroen do you have?

    Cheers.
    1972 SM
    1989 BX 16 Valve

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Mel Carey at Citro is a good start for RWC. No harm in getting 'the list', and take it from there. Some things you might be able to attend to, others you might get assistance.

    As to the leak and whether it will be expensive....no way of telling until it's checked out but jump in and get it looked at.

    I wonder what model you have bought?

    Good luck,


    Tim

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Default service

    1961 ID 19 Parisienne.
    Thanks for reply!
    I had looked at my today again. I need to replace couple of hoses for water and radiator need to be flushed out. And I need to fix a oil leak from passenger side under neath. And some wiring must be fixed.
    I think this is a simpler car to work on myself but I don`t have much time and tools etc..
    So car of France might be no go? I think person who work on the car must have same passion otherwise its workmanship will be mediocre. But I still see many DSs parked in front of their shop...
    I need to get RWC done so I can not take it to any Non citroen place. mmmmm new headache for 2012!

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Default Service ID 19

    Thanks! Citro seems be more passionate. But it sounded expensive. I will take it there. In fact car has sticker inside from them ( I think it says 1985....)
    Do you think they can organise TOW,too? Because car is low it need special attentions. I am thinking to drive it there but couple of problems.
    1) I have not driven MF transmission for 16 years and column shift is not famillier.
    2) I need to fix few things before I can actually take it out on road.
    oil leak, electrical, all the hoses for water need to be replaced, radiator need to be cleaned out....

    Thanks

  6. #6
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Gee's I was thinking an old BX or something. You know I have no idea where to take an ID19. The one in town here used to be serviced at one of the well known places in Melbourne you mentioned.... I found they had managed to add LHM to it's hydraulic system (it's STILL to this day causing issues with the car).

    My suggestion would be to get it home, pull the car up onto some ramps and take a look yourself. I have no doubt you'll just need to remove and clean the brake fluid hydraulic parts, check for corrosion and clean/refit. ID19's have brake fluid hydraulics, the rubber parts seem to last a very long time (much longer than the later LHM rubber bits in my experiance). Remember Only put brake fluid in that car. NEVER any other mineral based fluid. I'd suggest getting your hands dirty and tinkering with the car yourself.

    Another option is to see if you can get someone like David Gries to work on it (I have no idea if he will take on any more cars though).

    To move the car is easy, you need to get in what is refered to as a "flat tray truck". Good flat trays can load cars with no ground clearance. There's a very good person in Ballarat I can recommend, but that won't help you. When you book the truck, warn them it's a very, very low hydraulic Citroen (they may have struck them before). about 1/2" ground clearance and 124" wheelbase. They send out there truck with the lowest departure angle to collect it. You can tow it on a car trailer, but there is an art to getting them on you must use (ie: unhook the trailer from the car and lets it's nose go into the air as the car is winched on).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 24th December 2011 at 10:58 AM.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    Ah. I see. Congratulations Did you buy the white one on ebay?

    Leak could be a return hose if you are lucky...but the position of the leak is spelling brake caliper to me. If that is the case and you are not used to mechanical work on them I would plan to remove the calipers - both sides - and send them to the address I will repond to your PM with. They have a cute clockwork mechanism that is ingenious but can be a puzzle and there are many pieces. It is worth investing in getting this right early on, but one point to remember is that you pay as much for a bad mechanic as a brilliant one. Take heart, once these cars are sorted, maintenance is easy and they are beautiful to drive as a modern classic.

    PM me and I will give you a fuller run-down. They can be tackled by an amateur and the leak is most likely caused by a worn o-ring only - occasionally there are ruptured casings but this is rare. In the first instance and depending on how much time you have yourself... I would get professional assistance on the calipers.

    I have only just relinquished my 62 ID Parisienne after 28 years ownership in melbourne. She is now in Donat's safe hands and I have a Traction Avant. I have definite ideas on who to see and who not to.

    The trouble with caliper leaks is that the disks can get wet and stopping can be very compromised. They can also bind up. If you are local (I'm in Alphington) I would be happy to take a look later in Jan. Most mechanics will be in recess til then in any case.

    As Shane says, it is best that you learn to do some of this yourself. If you present to any professional Citroen shop with that leak and various other early D ailments, it won't be pretty as far as the wallet goes....and in some instances there is no guarantee the car will be improved when you get her back. And it will take a long time.

    You have purchased a wonderful piece of French and Australian automotive history. There will be lots out there who will scare you about it. Fact is it's a very straightforward car to work on - think of it as a French Holden (much nicer than a holden but robust and easy to work on).

    I also have many spare parts and could loan you some calipers to have rebuilt if you got stuck.

    Tim Cottrell

  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    If it's the brakes .... I'll post some piccies later today of them. There "different"... that's for sure. It's only 4 "O"rings. The main bit is the recess the 'O'rings sit in isn't corroded (you can't scavange these calipers from later LHM cars sadly as the caliper design is different on later cars).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    PS: I forgot to mention. If you need any brake fluid hyraulic bits, let me know and I'll see if I have anything usable.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 24th December 2011 at 03:45 PM.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  9. #9
    UFO
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    MOST important of all. It sounds like you are not experienced in working on Citroens.

    PLEASE read the information in the link before doing any work underneath your ID

    Hydraulic Citroen Safety - also applies in part to other cars
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  10. #10
    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caparobertsan View Post
    Thanks! Citro seems be more passionate. But it sounded expensive. I will take it there. In fact car has sticker inside from them ( I think it says 1985....)
    Do you think they can organise TOW,too? Because car is low it need special attentions. I am thinking to drive it there but couple of problems.
    1) I have not driven MF transmission for 16 years and column shift is not famillier.
    2) I need to fix few things before I can actually take it out on road.
    oil leak, electrical, all the hoses for water need to be replaced, radiator need to be cleaned out....

    Thanks
    The manual shift on the ID requires a little special talent to change smoothly, and remember there's no synchro in 1st gear, so a change from 2nd to 1st is impossible unless the car's at a standstill.

    As far as the range of D series go, the Parisienne is by the far the most simplistic and in my opinion, the best.

    Spare parts are available locally and internationally for just about anything, so that's the least of your worries.

    If your chosen mechanic charges you for an oil filter change, then you know they're taking you for a ride as your car doesn't have one.

    As for a RWC, you're going to have to find someone who is simpatico to a 50 year old Citroen but I think you might me a little far away from looking at one at this early stage. If it's leaking oil from the calipers, then a lot of work will be required to rectify this issue and you should do the other side as chances are the seal on the other side will give way before you know it.

    It might be a good idea to get the radiator out and have that sorted and while that's off, you can tend to the calipers as that's the only way you can get to them. There are services available in Europe where they can be sent off on an exchange basis. http://www.franzose.de/ are one such company who sell a vast array of parts for your car.

    If you have spare parts manual, you'll find sourcing parts a lot easier as you can identify them by component's number.

    Congratulations on your purchase!
    1972 SM
    1989 BX 16 Valve

  11. #11
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    Hi, welcome to the pond.
    I thought that I would pitch my 2 cents in here, because I think that some of the advice that you have been given is starry-eyed.
    Fronting up at one of the Citroen specialists in Melbourne may leave you shell-shocked and a little diminished in the enthusiasm stakes.
    Firstly, the car that you have bought is 50 years old. Would you consider using appliances in your daily life that are this old?
    Early Citroen Dseries cars have no internal rust protection, which means that they rust, badly. How far gone your car is and how deep your pockets are will determine whether it is a recoverable proposition or not. You will need to have someone who knows what they are looking at to advise you. Virtually all rust repair panels are available (at a cost) but the labour to sort out the rust can be very expensive even assuming that you can find someone capable of doing it.
    Contrary to some of the views expressed earlier, these are not simple cars. They have a complex hydraulic system, which although it was reliable in period, will now have deteriorated to a point where serious reclaimation may be required. Again, parts are available, at a price.
    Gearboxes are usually bullet-proof, and engines can be rebuilt. The only tyres that should be used are Michelin 165x400, and these are around $300-350 each.
    Given my recent experience with RWC inspectors in Victoria I would think that it is unlikely that you could get a RWC and registration without a shitload of work.
    If you are passionate about the D series Citroens and are prepared to spend what is required then welcome to the fold. I for one am prepared to help with advice and help.
    If not, then I suggest you move it on and buy a Honda.
    roger

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone! I will try to fix oil leak and remove radiator +replace cracked radiator hoses. And some electrical work is also required.
    I want to do whatever I can do but some heavy work, I will leave it to experts.
    I think I need to be patient with this car.$$$$$........
    But question still remains.... Citro or C.O.F.???

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    Hi Caparobertsan,

    Mel at Citro will give you a good idea about your RWC. It needs to go on a hoist for a warts and all assessment of rust issues. You can get an assessment and list of jobs without committing yourself to the work. You may need to prioritse. There will be some things you can probably do yourself. Several units - eg hydraulic pump, brake valve, wheel cylinders, height correctors can be carefully removed and sent away for reconditioning. Diaphrams are available for the fuel pumps. Any good (old-fashioned service) auto electrician can sort out your starter and generator when they play up. Over time I replaced every o-ring in my ID few times over - fairly straight-forward but the brake calipers require great caution and care. Spheres can be redone on an exchange basis also - see advertising on Aussiefrogs - one Richo, for instance.

    And yes as UFO says WHATEVER YOU DO DON'T GET UNDER HER UNLESS THE CAR IS EXTREMELY WELL SUPPORTED - PEOPLE HAVE DIED.

    I kept my '62 going happily for 28 years fully registered and used almost daily.

    With rust it's strange that some cars are basket cases and some seem to come through the years gracefully. Again some of them just seem sweet and others not so sweet despite appearances. I've taken my kids through 3 States of Australia and travelled many many thousands of kilometres, and driven to and from work 60K return trip for many years. I pulled her out of a paddock when I was 22 and have only just let her go at 49. A brilliant usable classic car. Donat is about to do all that over again I hope.

    If that white one is as good underneath as it looks above their may not be too much to do but yes...there will most likely be a fair bit. Very achieveable though if chassis is cleanish. You can pick up a lot of knowledge in a short period of time by reading the manuals. See if you can get hold of a little book by Thorpe, The Book of the Citroen, I think. Nicely written for the lay person.

    Both CCOCA and CCCV have people ready to assist - many belong to both clubs. Have a look at the websites. It would be a high priority to attend those meetings and enjoy some enthusiasm about your car. If it's a project you are after, you've got a beauty.

    If you want to see how height correctors / pumps etc work I'm happy to loan you some to play with.

    It's true I'm an optimist - glass half full - but I have been well rewarded for this. Once sorted they are indeed reliable and robust. Donat's mention of the radiator is a key one - must make sure it works. Natrad re-cored mine. I have also just had one made for the Traction. The latter was more expensive but I guess times have changed.

    Good luck and let me know if you need anything.

    Tim

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Default Id 19

    Thanks Tim
    It looks like I have to get my hands dirty and It is un avoidable.
    I must clean up my garage as many things are stored on the side. In oder to do thus need to build a shed at back which I don`t have yet. We have moved in to this house 2 years ago.
    Should I get 4 Hoists ? Supporting point would be at drive shafts? Or under chassis? Does normal jack fit under this car? There are too many questions. I do Have factory manual as well as third party manual.
    I think i need al the help I can get.
    Thanks

    Kaz

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    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    I need to pay a visit and show you the mounting spots etc. four stands are handy. Shane on this site is outstanding at taking and posting many excellent pics for you to get an idea of various aspects - if you follow his site where he is working on a later 2nd nose Id you would find it interesting.

    I am happy to check out your hydraulic leak if that's what it is. Got your pm...we can work out something during January.

    Tim

  16. #16
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    be careful about getting a rwc, i have heard the regulations have changed and could make it very difficult to get a rwc on a d

    the hydraulic leak should be simple to fix, most likely a leaking return hose or cracked boot on the suspension cylinder, you may need to remove the front guard to have a look, very simple when you know how

    i can check and rebuild the spheres if required, the suspension should be soft when the car is lifted up and the engine idling

    you may find the steering heavy, it is much better with good tyres at correct pressure, once the car is moving the steering should be easy to move with no play

    it is a very good idea to learn to do as much as you can on the car, there are very few garages who know what they are doing, and ALWAYS get a quote before authorising any work

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Default Id 19

    Thanks for reply!
    I will check those hoses. Suspension lift no problem at the moment. I have stated motor today just for fun and that lever for suspension works like a charm.

    I have noticed just before suspension is at quite high position again even I have released it to lowest position before. It has mind of its own? And funny thing is it will go up and down even motor is not running.
    Is this normal?

    I want to remove radiator soon because I can see brown water inside. And I feel I need to but LHS2 oil soon. Where Can I buy them I know 1L bottle cost 18.00 something.

    Thank you.

  18. #18
    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caparobertsan View Post
    Thanks for reply!
    I will check those hoses. Suspension lift no problem at the moment. I have stated motor today just for fun and that lever for suspension works like a charm.

    I have noticed just before suspension is at quite high position again even I have released it to lowest position before. It has mind of its own? And funny thing is it will go up and down even motor is not running.
    Is this normal?

    I want to remove radiator soon because I can see brown water inside. And I feel I need to but LHS2 oil soon. Where Can I buy them I know 1L bottle cost 18.00 something.

    Thank you.
    Regarding the fluid, you might want to check what's exactly in it. It could be one of three things:

    1. RR 363 (Rolls Royce suspension fluid that's the closest equivalent to LHS2 and many use it)
    2. Brake fluid (those in the know tend to use Dot 4 with a mix of castor oil for lubrication & which is what I have in my car)
    3. Canola oil (I hope for your sake it's not)

    So before you top anything up, be sure to check what's in it first. If it's Canola oil, then your wallet will be in a world of pain. I hope there's some of whatever that's in the system is in the boot somewhere for easy reference. Otherwise you might need to get scientific!

    From your description, your height correctors could be clogged up. Of course, I'm no expert on this matter, but I'm learning - as will you in due course.

    Also from what I've gleaned from your assessment of the car thus far, it's been sitting around for longer than it should. The older D's don't like anything less than being driven as often as possible.

    Due to it's recent inactivity, there are many careful steps in which you'll need to undertake before you hit the road. Start at the radiator and working your way back is a good starting point, I should think.

    I hope that with Tim's guidance (he's the only person I know who's driven the same car as the one you've bought consistently for the past three decades) we'll see another Parisienne on the road soon.
    1972 SM
    1989 BX 16 Valve

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts dogboy's Avatar
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    congrats on buying what I consider to be one of the best D's to own but that is my subjective view only.
    It has the nice early look and softer damper rates making the floating cloud feeling that later D's just do not have.
    Later D's persued some refinement but also the pursuit of more power which imho detracts from the initial concept of the car..
    Many years of owning several types of D tells me that the ID19 has been the easiest,simplest and cheapest D to own and maintain...period
    As Tim suggests...finding a sympathetic mechanic is key if you are unable or unwilling to do the work yourself...
    as for towing...call Greg ..Victorian Tilt Trays 0429 123 430 he owns operates his company and has experience in moving Dead & Alive D's and has very good rates! tell him Andy in Red Hill sent you and he will look after you.
    Good Luck with her...she looks a beauty and my feeling is it will be just that....
    Rev. Dogboy


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    1970 Renault 16TS
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    Citroen 1966 ID Safari (with 23 running gear)
    Citroen 1975 DS23 Safari
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts dogboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petermelb View Post
    be careful about getting a rwc, i have heard the regulations have changed and could make it very difficult to get a rwc on a d

    the hydraulic leak should be simple to fix, most likely a leaking return hose or cracked boot on the suspension cylinder, you may need to remove the front guard to have a look, very simple when you know how

    i can check and rebuild the spheres if required, the suspension should be soft when the car is lifted up and the engine idling

    you may find the steering heavy, it is much better with good tyres at correct pressure, once the car is moving the steering should be easy to move with no play

    it is a very good idea to learn to do as much as you can on the car, there are very few garages who know what they are doing, and ALWAYS get a quote before authorising any work
    Yes..the regs have changed and any RUST now has to be repaired as to original manufacturers specs...
    Rev. Dogboy


    1969 DS21 Pallas BVH with leather
    1970 Renault 16TS
    1967 Honda S800 cabrio
    Citroen 1970 DS21 Cabrio replica
    Citroen 1966 ID Safari (with 23 running gear)
    Citroen 1975 DS23 Safari
    1975 VW Kombi poptop
    1987 2CV
    Porsche Boxster S manual
    1988 Vespa PX200E

  21. #21
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogboy View Post
    Yes..the regs have changed and any RUST now has to be repaired as to original manufacturers specs...
    That's hilarious, who is going to know what "manufacturers specs" are I reckon I could sneak the rustiest piece of junk ever through a roadworthy, just by screwing shiny, pretty panels on it!

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    I'm with you Shane! Some cars exited the factory with rust; '70's Alfasud's and British delivered Lancia's (killed them here in Oz because of it.)
    Tried to get a RWC done a few years ago on a Foulcan wagon and was told, "Vicroads don't want cars this age on the road." Another car, UC Torana, had undergone a minor resto and the tester passed the car but gave the car a couple of 'faults' as "They never believe a car this age is spot on!"
    I hope the end result is painlessly achieved and another D cruises around.

  23. #23
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    i guess "manufacturers spec" means no holes, and no bits of metal pop rivited over and covered with sound deadener, not that anyone here would do that !!!


    i also heard they are getting more thorough with brake inspections, anyone heard any detail on this ?

    i would suggest with your car it is time to remove as much hydraulic fluid as possibe and put in new rr363 or dot 4 brake fluid, on early cars the fluid should be changed every 12 months.

    also be careful of perished water hoses, on my 1961 ID19 every water hose burst over a period of a few months after i got it on the road. i have a spare top radiator hose if you need it

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Default ID 19 Radiator hose, oil, too many questions....

    Hello, Thanks everyone for reply!
    Yes I might need that fat hose for water. But It looks like all the hose for water cooling system need to be replaced. Can I use any generic hoses? All the low pressure hydraulic oil hoses looks fine.

    I also have question about radiator fluid. I have spoken to a friend who used to own this car told me that I need to get special one.

    So How can I know what fluid I have in my hydrauic system? It looks like red-pink colour. Draining existing oil could be difficult thing to do?

    What is better one ? RR363 or DOT 4 + 5% castor oil??

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Thanks Andy!

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