Welding 2CVs
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Thread: Welding 2CVs

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Welding 2CVs

    I have been heard in the past to mutter the thought that welding 2CVs was akin to welding rusty beer cans. Here is a photo to prove it. the original metal in this front guard is less than 0.6mm thick! I'm welding in a strip of 0.8mm zincanneal. Needs more tacks before I complete the weld. Think I'll go find some cans of Fosters.
    roger

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Been there, done that, burnt the upholstery too I hammered flat the end of a length of copper pipe to place behind the weld too. This attempts to distribute the heat away and you wont weld to it

    Do you say the metal is zinc ?? I've found even spraying a zinc weld through primer on makes welding almost impossible. Try grinding away any coatings in one area and see if it's easier. The coating burning off seems to make it burn straight through.

    I use 0.6 wire, plenty of gas, and turn the wire speed down to nothing (really to the point where it's barely usable).

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Woops, just notice the oxy torch ..... Maybe one of those henrob dillon torches would work ? ( spotted one cheaply on a facebook site a few weeks ago).

    Edit: I'm sure you have heard of them (possibly your even using one now). Here's the torch I've always wanted to try:

    http://www.cut-like-plasma.com/dillon_torch.htm

    seeya,
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    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 6th December 2011 at 05:06 PM.
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Normal practice here is to replace with plastic. see the MDCA site for catalogue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Woops, just notice the oxy torch ..... Maybe one of those henrob dillon torches would work ? ( spotted one cheaply on a facebook site a few weeks ago).

    Edit: I'm sure you have heard of them (possibly your even using one now). Here's the torch I've always wanted to try:

    http://www.cut-like-plasma.com/dillon_torch.htm

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Shane, I am using a Henrob torch, have used one for years. I think that they are somewhat over-hyped but do seem to be very economical on gas.
    Agree that a zinc coating does interfere with welding - I sand the zinc off before welding. You're a brave man to attempt MIG welding on 2CVs, I wouldn't dream of using MIG on panels this thin.
    roger

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    JBN
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    Normally the precursor to welding 2CV panels (0.55 mm) is to practice welding cigarette paper. A good source of metal to repair 2CV metal (particularly below the rear quarter windows) is to use the metal from computer desktop boxes.

    Another solution for joining incompatible grades of metal is to glue rather than weld. On Daffy Duck, the rust below the rear quarter windows was replaced by desktop computer box metal. The spare wheel well was gingerly tacked even though the new sheet metal well was about 0.9mm. The F40 footwell vents were riveted and glued using two Locktite products. The rivets were only for alignement and clamping and were later ground off. A phone call stating the problem to Loctite ensued in the correct products being used.

    Remember that aircraft are screwed and glued, not welded. Careful MIG welding can yield results.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    Normal practice here is to replace with plastic. see the MDCA site for catalogue.
    Had a quick look at this catalogue, couldn't make a lot of sense of what is offered. Do you mean that complete steel panels eg wings, are being replaced with plastic items?
    roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    Normally the precursor to welding 2CV panels (0.55 mm) is to practice welding cigarette paper. A good source of metal to repair 2CV metal (particularly below the rear quarter windows) is to use the metal from computer desktop boxes.

    Another solution for joining incompatible grades of metal is to glue rather than weld. On Daffy Duck, the rust below the rear quarter windows was replaced by desktop computer box metal. The spare wheel well was gingerly tacked even though the new sheet metal well was about 0.9mm. The F40 footwell vents were riveted and glued using two Locktite products. The rivets were only for alignement and clamping and were later ground off. A phone call stating the problem to Loctite ensued in the correct products being used.

    Remember that aircraft are screwed and glued, not welded. Careful MIG welding can yield results.

    John
    That sounds like you are backing all horses.

    Loctite multi-bond has a shear strength of 2500 psi odd when correctly used and all surfaces are clean and there is no air entrapment and a minimum film thickness. It's easy to get this at the factory but near impossible aftermarket.

    Having said that, I've used multi-bond extensively to glue aluminium mounting plates to glass doors to fit electric locks. These have been done over a 15 years and 10 years later I've never had one fall off. But being glass you can see the film and can know for sure it's even and without bubbles.

    I'd like see a panel butt welded, as shown in the image, using adhesive

    I'm surprised you didn't suggest bronze welding as well which works very well for lap joins.

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    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    That sounds like you are backing all horses.

    I'd like see a panel butt welded, as shown in the image, using adhesive

    I'm surprised you didn't suggest bronze welding as well which works very well for lap joins.
    This photo shows the foot vents that were glued to the front panel. The opening and closing is done by ones foot, everytime a vehicle passes on a dusty road and whenever one wants some cooler air around the feet. There were two different Loctite products involved, one on one surface and the other on the other surface. Together they cost about $100.

    The bonnet wheel well was MIG tack welded. Its waterproof as well. Must put a drain in it as it fills up with water during overnight showers and I have to open the bonnet fully to let it drain. The wheel rim also fills with water so I would still have to open the bonnet, otherwise the airstream blows water onto the windscreen until it is dry.

    But 2CV panels are difficult to weld. At least when you get angry and give it a kick, the boot print last the life of the panel.

    John
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Welding 2CVs-daffy-013.jpg  

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    I am really liking that yellow 2CV and not because it shares my name.

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    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    I am really liking that yellow 2CV and not because it shares my name.
    We are obviously related as I had the username Daffy Duck on AussieFrogs prior to the meltdown. Kindred spirits. You should get an appropriate cap as well to match your name.

    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/att...6&d=1288842168

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by lhs2.1 View Post
    Had a quick look at this catalogue, couldn't make a lot of sense of what is offered. Do you mean that complete steel panels eg wings, are being replaced with plastic items?
    roger
    Just the wings.
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    That sounds like you are backing all horses.

    Loctite multi-bond has a shear strength of 2500 psi odd when correctly used and all surfaces are clean and there is no air entrapment and a minimum film thickness. It's easy to get this at the factory but near impossible aftermarket.

    Having said that, I've used multi-bond extensively to glue aluminium mounting plates to glass doors to fit electric locks. These have been done over a 15 years and 10 years later I've never had one fall off. But being glass you can see the film and can know for sure it's even and without bubbles.

    I'd like see a panel butt welded, as shown in the image, using adhesive

    I'm surprised you didn't suggest bronze welding as well which works very well for lap joins.
    Given the non structural nature of the area, those of us that don't have Rogers ability with a gas torch could possibly use glue for that piece. You create a 1" wide strip of metal, place this behind the area to be joined. You would need to ensure it well sealed from behind so it doesn't attract moisture/dirt and rust were the metal is layered in the wheel arch. Air bubbles wouldn't be such an issue, neither would getting the flim thickness perfect. You see the contact area would be huge, and the load of holding the small lightweight edge of the guard would be tiny (versus the strength of the adhesive)

    Crazies doing destruction testing like these guys, give you a lot of confidence in the ablility of the glues.

    http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/weld...ct-116090.html

    http://www.autobody101.com/forums/vi...ve+weld#p87489

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    JBN
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    The trick to using adhesives is to use the CORRECT one for the application, and of course follow the directions.That's why I rang Loctite for the answer after they quizzed me on exactly what I was trying to achieve. I also have a greater faith in a separate glue and accelerator as the curing process is less chancy.

    Loctite 324 adhesive
    Loctite 7075 activator

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    The trick to using adhesives is to use the CORRECT one for the application, and of course follow the directions.That's why I rang Loctite for the answer after they quizzed me on exactly what I was trying to achieve. I also have a greater faith in a separate glue and accelerator as the curing process is less chancy.

    Loctite 324 adhesive
    Loctite 7075 activator

    John
    https://tds.us.henkel.com/NA/UT/HNAUTTDS.nsf/web/8D3D677339F34ACD882571870000D65C/$File/324-EN.pdf

    It loses 50% of it's strength if subjected to water/glycol or petrol or High RH conditions. Granted the temperatures are quite high at which the tests are carried out.

    I also note it doesn't have a very high "peel" strength and automotive applications are not mentioned.


    As opposed to multibond which is very similar but far more stable.

    https://tds.us.henkel.com//NA/UT/HNAUTTDS.nsf/web/C46FC0D6EE1D7448882571870000D668/$File/329-EN.pdf


    John, no p!ssing contest intended. I just think it's wise to share the product details and let the user decide.

    I actually enquired by email to Loctite (now Henkel) and got an email back about the suitability for application.

    Also, when joining structurally, the specs are for grit blasted steel. Not for sanded and especially not wire brushed finish. So surface finish is very important.

    [
    Last edited by robmac; 8th December 2011 at 06:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Given the non structural nature of the area, those of us that don't have Rogers ability with a gas torch could possibly use glue for that piece. You create a 1" wide strip of metal, place this behind the area to be joined. You would need to ensure it well sealed from behind so it doesn't attract moisture/dirt and rust were the metal is layered in the wheel arch. Air bubbles wouldn't be such an issue, neither would getting the flim thickness perfect. You see the contact area would be huge, and the load of holding the small lightweight edge of the guard would be tiny (versus the strength of the adhesive)

    Crazies doing destruction testing like these guys, give you a lot of confidence in the ablility of the glues.

    http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/weld...ct-116090.html

    http://www.autobody101.com/forums/vi...ve+weld#p87489

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Here's an adhesive with an amazing warranty:

    http://www.3m.com/US/auto_marine_aero/au0222b.html

    haven't tried it myself, but huge possibilities!

  17. #17
    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiley_coyote View Post
    Here's an adhesive with an amazing warranty:

    http://www.3m.com/US/auto_marine_aero/au0222b.html

    haven't tried it myself, but huge possibilities!
    That sounds fantastic. The only negative is near the end of the article "provides the same aesthetic appearance as the original", which in the context of a 2CV implies that the fit and finish will be crap.

    Two areas where this would be most useful is the bonnet "hinge" where it is attached to the windscreen frame. Normally it is a bit of bent metal spot welded to the windscreen frame, which allows for water to penetrate the join and rust the hinge away. I have a new windscreen frame ready to be installed. Before I do, I will drill out the spot welds and glue the hinge to the frame using this 3M automix. Stops water penetration between the two bits of metal.

    Another area is below the rear quarter windows, regardless of whether one is butt welding a new panel or adding some metal to replace the rust holes. The rear panel housing the tail lights is another area of metal layers with plenty of scope for rusting out.

    The thought of a 2CV held together by adhesive is appealing, as it complements the road manners of the car. I often think when watching a 2CV corner hard, that it is not dissimilar to stepping on chewing gum and raising one's shoe with the gum desperatly hanging on to both the footpath and the shoe.

    John

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    A friend supplied me with the glue Renault use to bond the inner and outer door panels. I used it to repair a bit of rust in the roof of the H van where I cut a rectangular hole and fitted a panel. I couldn't weld it because removing the roof lining was a major, major job and there was possibly inflammable fibre insulation betwiin the fabric and the metal.
    It has worked fine and is as I glued it 4 years ago.
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