LHM .... compatible fluid ?
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  1. #1
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Default LHM .... compatible fluid ?

    Hi Guys,

    I was at supercheap yesterday and noticed a range of "Mineral Hydraulic Oil" made by Nulon. I have emailed them to see if one has the same characteristics as LHM....... Either way, it's going to be a hell of a lot better than Dexron if your ever stuck for fluid somewhere.

    It's possible we may have a fluid here than even exceeds the LHM specifications for $36 for 5litres.

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    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    Shane IIRC the Nulon product comes in three grades (?). More suited to a tractor than a Citroen. The grades are 32, 46 and 68 with the higher number being the heavier weight.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I've emailed them asking .... Hopefully they'll see they have a market for LHM and stick some green dye in there appropriate fluid and sell it as LHM !! There can't be a huge difference other than the additive packages added to the fluids.

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    UFO
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    FWIW I believe LHM is 10w grade oil.
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    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    FWIW I believe LHM is 10w grade oil.
    Which is I think about 15 in the ISO scale used for hydraulic oils, and referred to by Bluey.

    I do indeed use the grades Bluey mentions in my tractors.

    Roger

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    I just stick mobil agri oil in everything gives great oil pressure in the old ute.
    I think it is 15W30 all our tractors bobcats etc run hydraulic and gear oil in one sump!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Hi Guys,

    I was at supercheap yesterday and noticed a range of "Mineral Hydraulic Oil" made by Nulon. I have emailed them to see if one has the same characteristics as LHM....... Either way, it's going to be a hell of a lot better than Dexron if your ever stuck for fluid somewhere.

    It's possible we may have a fluid here than even exceeds the LHM specifications for $36 for 5litres.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    LHM+ has a 40C CsT value of 18 (measured at 40C) and a viscosity index (VI) of 340-370, depending on brand and method of testing. IIRC the PSA specs were for 18/340. Typically Dexron3 is 32-34/170. As long as you have a BVM D and don't live where it gets really cold Dexron will work just fine. There are cars here in California that have been using it for years with no ill effects what so ever. OTOH it is to thick and to low in viscosity for a BVH car. The pressure/viscosity compensation system was never designed to handle fluids that thick nor with that low a VI. LHS2 was 14/280. The factory was able to use the exact same components for both fluids (with a change of the sealing rings) with just an adjustment to the spring tension for the P/V compensator.

    Prior to the rise in costs of hydraulic fluids here in the states the ones closest to LHM+ that could be subsituted with little to change for a BVH were AeroShell #4, Texaco 5606, Lubriplate -70 Hydraulic oil and Exxon Univis HVI 13/26 (mixed in a 1:1 ratio). All had viscosity ratings of between 13 - 16 (Univis was 18 at the 1:1 mix ratio) and VI's that range from 350 to over 410.

    However in today's market, at least here in the States, there is little if any cost advantage to using them. If one has a leaky car and it is a BVM, then use Dexron. If one has a BVH and it is leaking either fix the leaks or use Dexron and put up with the fact that shift speed will not remain constant as the fluid heats up. If one lives in areas where it below 5C or so then it would be a good idea to use either LHM or one of the 5606 spec (US military) or equivalent fluids. The real problem with using a too thick fluid and/or one with a very low VI, other than BVH shifting consistency and slightly harsher ride when cold temps are encountered (especially in the rear), is the strain it puts on the pump, specifically the wobble plate until the system has heated the fluid up.

    Steve

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    If in the provinces, go see your closest John Deere dealer .. they keep LHM for pure hydraulic systems...... and it is green too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzelhund View Post
    If in the provinces, go see your closest John Deere dealer .. they keep LHM for pure hydraulic systems...... and it is green too.
    And that's really LHM? I must check that next time I'm driving anywhere properly out of Perth.
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    Here in the states, well at least California, NAPA auto stores carry small supplies of LHM Plus - It is Pentosin produced and imported by Altrom ( a Canadian company I believe). Price is somewhat competitive at around $13/liter, but AFAIK not available in larger sizes.

    Another substitute would be Pentosin CHF 7.1 - very close to LHM Plus specs. The main difference between the two was that the LHM Plus specs have a slightly higher viscosity rating than the original LHM specifications.

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    Here in the states, well at least California, NAPA auto stores carry small supplies of LHM Plus - It is Pentosin produced and imported by Altrom ( a Canadian company I believe). Price is somewhat competitive at around $13/liter, but AFAIK not available in larger sizes.

    Another substitute would be Pentosin CHF 7.1 - very close to LHM Plus specs. The main difference between the two was that the LHM Plus specs have a slightly higher viscosity rating than the original LHM specifications.

    Steve
    Thanks Steve.
    JohnW

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    Pentosin is the BMW name for the fluid....I doubt that any hydropneumatic BMWs ever were imported into OZ .. no doubt someone will know more.
    A search on Google will reveal a couple of Pentosin related sites and one gallery of removing and replacing a rear "strut" on an "offroad" type BMW ( I have lost the link )

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    Guide for BMW hydropneumatic suspension systems - outlining fluid specs and models it was installed in...

    Doesn't seem a bad system - albeit a tad more complex than that of a Citroen

    http://www.e38.org/selflevel.pdf
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    M.Stalled,

    I have just had a quick read over the BMW link above...seems they discarded the "hydro" style and went to pneumatic..one wonders why.
    Benz tried hydropneumatics for a while too .. I have seen a very hard riding S class around home with NO suspension travel and could only wonder if the owner/driver knew any better .... maybe it has never had fully functioning spheres.

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    1000+ Posts stuartb's Avatar
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    How much do you actually use per year to bother saving a few dollars to put potentially the wrong stuff in?

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    UFO
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuartb View Post
    How much do you actually use per year to bother saving a few dollars to put potentially the wrong stuff in?
    Perfectly put.

    It could be like using cheap fuel from the el cheapo fuel place to save a couple of cents a litre then finding it screws up your fuel pump.

    My 2 LHM vehicles have used probably 250ml total in the past two years and that would be the result of very minor leaks and sphere changing.
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    1000+ Posts stuartb's Avatar
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    I get the total stuff for around $10 a litre (buying 10 bottles)...might get a shock when I buy it next time as its been a while (local citroen guy gives it to at cost as I put him onto the place in Brisbane to get it at a quarter of what he was paying)...enough for a complete change and a bottle in the boot...and top up when one of those return pipes leak before I fix them with $2 worth of dripfeed pipe and junctions from the nursey shop

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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzelhund View Post
    Pentosin is the BMW name for the fluid....I doubt that any hydropneumatic BMWs ever were imported into OZ .. no doubt someone will know more.
    A search on Google will reveal a couple of Pentosin related sites and one gallery of removing and replacing a rear "strut" on an "offroad" type BMW ( I have lost the link )

    Pentosin was founded in 1927 and at first was making veterinary and medical products. It branched into automotive fluids in the mid 30's. It is independent of any auto manufacturer and was one of the primary producers of hydraulic fluid for Citroen starting with the D in 1955. The current production of LHS2 available, at high cost, is a Pentosin product.

    Steve

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    For as long as I can get LHM for the price I do, i will just use it, when the time comes when LHM gets too expensive I will go to atf, just don't know what I will do with my BVH....

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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneSoutAfrica View Post
    For as long as I can get LHM for the price I do, i will just use it, when the time comes when LHM gets too expensive I will go to atf, just don't know what I will do with my BVH....

    Cheers
    Corne

    Don't worry to much about it . If push becomes shove, check with a local aircraft supply house about AeroShell #4 or equivalent. Other than color it is just about a dead ringer for LHM+. Any aircraft fluid made to MilSpec H 5606 will work just fine.
    Steve

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Thanks Steve.

    I will write down the name and keep it safe. a citroen friend here in south africa once said he found an aircraft hydraulic oil equivalent to lhm. Just have to ask him what is the name. Im paying $6 a litre total lhm at the moment so there is still not too much worries... I wonder what newer lds hydraulic fluid will do to this lhm system??

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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneSoutAfrica View Post
    Thanks Steve.

    I will write down the name and keep it safe. a citroen friend here in south africa once said he found an aircraft hydraulic oil equivalent to lhm. Just have to ask him what is the name. Im paying $6 a litre total lhm at the moment so there is still not too much worries... I wonder what newer lds hydraulic fluid will do to this lhm system??

    Cheers
    Corne

    At $6/liter it is about 50% of what it costs in the US, if we are talking apples to apples :

    LDS is made from a synthetic base and Total warn against mixing LDS with LHM. Interestingly Pentosin 7s, which is just about identical with LHM+, is not to be mixed with Pentosin 11s either. 11s is also made from a synthetic base stock and its specifications are almost identical with those of LDS except for the color. LDS is suppose to be biodegradable as well as having a very long life in use.

    Steve

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    JBN
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    I think LHM is also biodegradeable, sort of. The longer I use it, the more leaks I get in the system and it just disappears..

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    I think LHM is also biodegradeable, sort of. The longer I use it, the more leaks I get in the system and it just disappears..

    John
    You mean it is magic and doesn't obey the law of conservation of matter.
    JohnW

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    I wonder how easy its going to be to get in the next few years tho as the Xantia was the last car using it...hardly a big market for an oil company is it...suspension fluid for Citroens from 1964 to 2001, that the average owner probably uses a litre per year....possibly not one of the big sellers in the range

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