DS23 Engine Oil specs
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! ntr1972's Avatar
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    Icon14 DS23 Engine Oil specs

    Good evening
    I've done a quick search but can't seem to find the recommended engine oil type for my 1974 DS23 Pallas. Anyone got a view ?

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Ronhic's Avatar
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    According to the owners manual:

    Total GT 20:40 or GTS 20:50

    However, I'm sure that others could suggest something better...

  3. #3
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    Just use an everyday 20/50. Don't be tempted to use one of the older engine (read thicker) oils. I did in my D once and it was like it had treacle in the engine.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

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    When new the 5 main engine recommended oil was 20/50 oil in warm climates and 10/30 in cold climates. If the engine has a lot of miles on it I would suggest that you stick with the 20/50 unless an oil pressure check indicates you can use a thinner oil. The advantage of a lighter weight oil is slightly better fuel economy if the engine does not loose oil pressure when hot.

    Steve

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    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    Find an oil 20w50, that has a high ZDDP concentration. ZDDP is zinc content and zinc keeps the lifters spinning in their bores above the cam.

    http://micapeak.com/info/oiled.html

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    Daffy,

    ZPPD is an anti-wear additive. What causes the lifters to rotate is that they are not ground flat, but with a slight slope as is the crown of the lifter lobe. OTOH lack of or lower amounts of ZPPD is not responsible for lifter wear. This was a known problem with the cars from new and oils then had loads of ZPPD. It is lack of frequent oil and filter changes that is the primary cause along with low oil pressures in the engine due to increased gaps on the main and rod bearings.

    Infrequent use of the cars and then when used short trips are death on an internal combustion engine.

    Steve

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    Fellow Frogger! ntr1972's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone...

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    Without starting an 'oil thread', it's quite easy to find an oil that's a 20/W50 and would satisfy the obsolete SG standard in the API series. Among others, Valvoline were selling a Classic 20/W50 oil that's SG rated and Nulon sell a suitable oil too. Neither are expensive, so change them frequently. There's also the possibility of using a ZDDP additive, but it's easier and cheaper to buy something suitable off the shelf to begin with.

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Without starting an 'oil thread', it's quite easy to find an oil that's a 20/W50 and would satisfy the obsolete SG standard in the API series. Among others, Valvoline were selling a Classic 20/W50 oil that's SG rated and Nulon sell a suitable oil too. Neither are expensive, so change them frequently. There's also the possibility of using a ZDDP additive, but it's easier and cheaper to buy something suitable off the shelf to begin with.
    At the risk of starting another oil thread,

    David, do you know what the difference between the cheap nulon in the black bottle and the more expensive nulon in the gold bottle is apart from about $15???


    Jo

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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    At the risk of starting another oil thread,

    David, do you know what the difference between the cheap nulon in the black bottle and the more expensive nulon in the gold bottle is apart from about $15???


    Jo
    Gold packaging costs a lot more you know! ... and it's not April 1st yet.

    No, I don't know, but like a lot of product differentiation, I'd guess it's only partly to do with the quality of base materials being used. You'd have to compare the products side by side or even ask Nulon to see if the extra charge is worth it for you.

  11. #11
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    Having an engine oil loaded with ZPPD ( the older SG specification) is not going to reduce lifter wear. It didn't prevent lifter wear 40 years ago and it will not prevent it now. It is just an unfortunate fact of life with 5 main engines that they wear out their lifters. What will help prevent excessive lifter wear is frequent and conciseness oil and filter changes. Disregarding this will lead to rapid lifter wear regardless of the oil used.

  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    Having an engine oil loaded with ZPPD ( the older SG specification) is not going to reduce lifter wear. It didn't prevent lifter wear 40 years ago and it will not prevent it now. It is just an unfortunate fact of life with 5 main engines that they wear out their lifters. What will help prevent excessive lifter wear is frequent and conciseness oil and filter changes. Disregarding this will lead to rapid lifter wear regardless of the oil used.
    That's no doubt correct. However modern oils without ZDDP will likely cause the cams/lifters to wear about 10,000times faster than they already do .... Just google ZDDP and see the issues a lot of "old car" poeple are having, particually with breaking in new cams etc...

    http://www.zddplus.com/

    I just use this, it possibly does nothing, but for the tiny price ... does it really matter I want to run modern fully synthetic oils in the CX (it's a petrol turbo model, you'd be insane to put old thick oils in it). Certainly having some ZDDP in there won't hurt, even if it doesn't help

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    At the risk of starting another oil thread,

    David, do you know what the difference between the cheap nulon in the black bottle and the more expensive nulon in the gold bottle is apart from about $15???


    Jo
    http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Engine_Oils/


    I think you ll find there is no 20-50 in the gold bottle... there is a long life version of the 20-50 in the bright orange but none in the gold bottle...different api rating
    Gold packaging covers the synthetic range (check for the blue "fully synthetic" marking on top of sticker)...




    dino

  14. #14
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    Shane,

    The ZPPD was replaced by other anti-wear components that do not screw up catyalitic converters if a car is using excessive oil. I have used the reduced ZPPD oils in my D since its rebuild in 2002. I now have over 110,000 miles on that rebuild and virtually no wear in the engine and/or lifters.

    Most all of the 'stories' being floated around on the net are by companies that want to sell you an additive or ZPPD at a hefty price. The original stories about all this started surfacing in the late 1990's to early 2000's from a couple of cam manufactures here in the US. When all was said and done it turned out the real problem was the result of poor quality blanks being made in Asia to save money. However this stuff has taken on a life of its own and it now seems just about impossible to get a straight answer.

    However I will just point out this to everyone. Excessive wear to the camshafts and lifters have been a problem with 5 main engines from new. If a lack of ZPPD in the oil was the problem then cars being sold in the 60's and 70' would not have had any problems until the concentration was reduced in the late 90's. However they did suffer from this. I can remember vividly looking at the lifters from a 67 DS in the mid 70's that were so badly cupped you could just about have used them for small drinking glasses. And the surfaces were pitted almost beyond recognition. The problem then as well as now is not religiously changing the oil and filter. I drive my car on a daily basis. The oil and filter get changed at no more than 3,000 miles.

    It was a known problem. It just seems lots of people have really short memories.

    Steve
    Last edited by Citroenfan; 24th November 2011 at 02:53 PM. Reason: grammer

  15. #15
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    Shane,

    The ZPPD was replaced by other anti-wear components that do not screw up catyalitic converters if a car is using excessive oil. I have used the reduced ZPPD oils in my D since its rebuild in 2002. I now have over 110,000 miles on that rebuild and virtually no wear in the engine and/or lifters.

    Most all of the 'stories' being floated around on the net are by companies that want to sell you an additive or ZPPD at a hefty price. The original stories about all this started surfacing in the late 1990's to early 2000's from a couple of cam manufactures here in the US. When all was said and done it turned out the real problem was the result of poor quality blanks being made in Asia to save money. However this stuff has taken on a life of its own and it now seems just about impossible to get a straight answer.

    However I will just point out this to everyone. Excessive wear to the camshafts and lifters have been a problem with 5 main engines from new. If a lack of ZPPD in the oil was the problem then cars being sold in the 60's and 70' would not have had any problems until the concentration was reduced in the late 90's. However they did suffer from this. I can remember vividly looking at the lifters from a 67 DS in the mid 70's that were so badly cupped you could just about have used them for small drinking glasses. And the surfaces were pitted almost beyond recognition. The problem then as well as now is not religiously changing the oil and filter. I drive my car on a daily basis. The oil and filter get changed at no more than 3,000 miles.

    It was a known problem. It just seems lots of people have really short memories.

    Steve
    Thanks Steve,

    your knowledge on this stuff is incredible. So the wear modifiers added to the modern oils are infact OK for the old flat tappet engines ? Nearly everything I've ever read says don't use the modern oils without ZDDP in old flat tappet engines

    eg:
    http://www.mustangmonthly.com/techar...sm_rating.html (one of thousands of similar articles).

    Oh well, I"ve sure we'll find out over the next decade either way ('cos there will be cam/lifter failures in all the older vehicles on the roads beyond normal aging if it is an issue).

    seeya
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    I have been using Mobil 1 in the Prestige since it was rebuilt, since then has covered 160k. I use the 5W 50 formulation. Only once after a quick run up the M4 on a stinking hot day, including half an hour in traffic before to get the engine nice and hot has the oil pressure light flickered on at idle.

    Filter and oil changed every 10k

    Greg
    Mine

    CX Prestige
    Toyota Prius

    In the family

    Xantia SX

  17. #17
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    I have been using Mobil 1 in the Prestige since it was rebuilt, since then has covered 160k. I use the 5W 50 formulation. Only once after a quick run up the M4 on a stinking hot day, including half an hour in traffic before to get the engine nice and hot has the oil pressure light flickered on at idle.

    Filter and oil changed every 10k

    Greg
    Seriously .... I'd check your oil pressure switch and see if it's leaking (I know this is off topic, but there buggers of things for leaking in CX's... It'll also screw up the ABS if it's dodgy).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Its not leaking. I have driven CXs for long enough to keep a close eye on that one. ABS - whats that, although it does have heated external mirrors

    Greg
    Mine

    CX Prestige
    Toyota Prius

    In the family

    Xantia SX

  19. #19
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    Hi Shane,

    For really high performance engines with high compression ratios they may or may not. OTOH SG oils are typically not suitable for these kind of engines either . As far as D engines are concerned I have no problem using the latest oils. Have to say that modern oils are really quite good. At just around 110,000 miles my rebuild looks just as clean inside as it was day I first buttoned it up 10 years ago.

    I have always taken the claims of additives and the need to use them with more than a kilo of salt. Having said that I am more than willing to try things based on the experiences of people who I know are level headed.

    As to knowledge. The line I have used with good success in this regard is that while I may not be able to tell you how to do something, I can tell you any number of ways of how not to do it . Experience from having done things badly, and a dogged determination to figure out how things work can be a really bad trait. I started working on my first D in 1963. From then to 1990 I did not own or drive any other type of car. At that time I was given a company car. It did not get used all that much. My current daily drivers are the 72 DS sedan and a 70 Safari. I want my cars such that I could jump in either one and drive across the US tomorrow if needed.

    Steve

  20. #20
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    My current daily drivers are the 72 DS sedan and a 70 Safari. I want my cars such that I could jump in either one and drive across the US tomorrow if needed.

    Steve
    You had better get cracking on them, then.

    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Steve, if you are going to drive across the States, can I come too? (oh no, what have I started?) May be Rod and Wally would like to join in, and there's Andy (has he finishied his restoration yet?) and even Bill could be with us for any electrical hiccups. I'd do a special trip up to see you.
    RegarDS
    Lou (this year's AGM - remember?)

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    Hey Lou,

    You keep threatening to get in touch when in LA when you are not stranded in Bangkok or other exotic ports of call . Actually Wally and I had planned on driving, in June, back to the NY meet from California. The trouble is just the amount of time involved - it is a bit over 7,000 miles round trip and getting back here in time for our Rendezvous. And then there is the fuel costs...........

    Methinks Rod, if he were to do this, would want to use his 75 23 with its plush leather seats. He tends to look down his noise at lesser DS's with cloth covers .

    Steve

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    He tends to look down his noise at lesser DS's with cloth covers .
    But he salivates when offered a chance to baby sit a Mehari, which also runs the Castrol 20w50.

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    Steve, I hope to be in LA on Dec 29/30.(to be confirmed) I would imagine that your place would be closed for a little tippling.

    Wally, surely that red Mehari is not the one over which Rod would salivate!? And his car and those seats..... just beautiful!
    Cheers
    Lou

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    There are certainly people in the Porsche 928 community who are convinced the ZDDP issue is a real problem and that there is a difference in cam gear wear resulting from the oil where other things are equal. So, while it's rather too easy to overplay the issue in isolation, I'd be reluctant to dismiss the issue as simply being traced back to a batch of poor quality cams since the cams in question are apparently Porsche factory parts. This is also the case with some motorcylce communities and I recall at least one European group, I forget which at present, saying not to use later than SG-oil in their engines. In the case of the Citroen engines, maybe, it's just that the cam gear has a design weakness? I've certainly seen bad wear on cam followers in the past, so it's not as though a higher zinc compound content is a silver bullet preventative measure there.

    So, my preference, and anyone else can obviously make their own choice, would be for either an SG type oil or a later oil that meets the latest oil standards except for having boosted zinc. Obviously, an SL oil is technically better than an SG oil, but the later standards have a prescribed maximum zinc level and these have become lower over time. Apparently, the need for manufacturers to guarantee to the US EPA that catalysts will last 100K mile has caused the continued reduction of znc in successively later API oil specifications. If the zinc level is outside the standard, then the oil doesn't comply and can't claim that standard even if it complies in all other ways. So, picking a complying SL or SM oil means it must have a lower level of zinc than the oils the car was originally designed to use. Hence, I'd be looking for a non-complying oil, but everyone has the freedom to make their own decision here.

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