Paris Rhone Alternator failure DS / SM
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Rally's Avatar
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    Default Paris Rhone Alternator failure DS / SM

    My alternator on my SM has failed and I am looking for either a new ( or good used ) alternator OR a parts supply to enable a repair.

    Does anybody have a contact for parts for Pairs Rhone alternators ?

    The alternator appears to be almost the same as one from a DS if this helps .

    Thanks

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  2. #2
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    CitroŽn Tragic UFO's Avatar
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    A decent auto electrician should be able to source the required parts and rebuild the unit for you, or others on here may suggest alternate products such as Bosch.
    Craig K
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  3. #3
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    Alternators fail when bearings seize or brushes and slip rings wear. The alternator on my D Special failed when the front bearing seized. Not a problem, it is a standard bearing available from bearing supply houses. But on dismantling I found that one of the slip rings was badly worn. I could probably have had it rectified on a lathe, but decided to install a more modern Bosch unit. So the question of repair really depends on the reason for failure and whether you want to retain originality.

    Cheers
    Richard

  4. #4
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    Um, on rereading Rally's original post (with that impressive list of vehicles at his disposal) , I realise that I could be reasonably accused of trying to teach my grandmother to suck eggs. I will try to curb my enthusiasm in future. Sorry.

    Cheers
    Richard

  5. #5
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    Icon6 Suggest less expensive with a Bosch replacement.

    My only experience with Paris Rhone is the original alternators on the Fuego, I have rebuilt them myself, had several auto electricians do expensive and extensive re-builds, only to have them fail in service. New ones seem to work well, but the regulators are expensive when compared to Bosch.

    It seems you can source a Bosch replacement second hand at Pick-A-Part, do minor wiring adjustments and they just seem to keep on working, and if you need a new regulator they are readily available at any auto elec, the last one cost me $26

    Unless you want to keep the car original, that would be the way to go. Someone familiar with your present wiring should be able convert a readily available Bosch unit for you car.

    Good Luck,

    Ken

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    Mechanical failure or electrical failure?

    Electrical failures usually require extracting the diode plate, checking them, and installing replacements with a soldering iron.

    Mechanical failure? Open it up and see what bit the big one and go from there.

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Rally's Avatar
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    The failure in both my alternators is the rectifiers . Every thing else is fine except that I have only one brush pack, that I have been swaping to test them.
    Two local auto elects have tried to source new parts with no luck.
    I have a very friendly wrecker ( ex brother in law ) who has given me alternators before ( like a nice 180 amp unit on the rally car ) but with the SM I want to keep it origional.
    Will consider a working second hand unit as the car only does very low mileage.
    Does anybody have a contact number for Martin Bray?
    Trying not to sound desperate!
    Peugeot 504 Rally car V6
    Peugeot 504 LTI
    Peugeot 504 Ti
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    Peugeot 406 SV 5 speed
    Citroen DS23 EFi Safari
    Toyota Land Criuser V8 Super charged ( to tow the rally car )
    Rally with www.AMSAG.com.au

  8. #8
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R Procter View Post
    Um, on rereading Rally's original post (with that impressive list of vehicles at his disposal) , I realise that I could be reasonably accused of trying to teach my grandmother to suck eggs. I will try to curb my enthusiasm in future. Sorry.

    Cheers
    Richard
    You shouldn't need to worry about being circumspect, Richard. Rally asked a question, you attempted an answer as best you could. Your original answer makes a couple of really good points, so I see no problem. After all, the whole point of Aussiefrogs is "share the knowledge".

    Getting on with Rally's original question: Briefly looking over what material I have, the D alternator is simular, but not the same. The SM alternator is somewhat larger to account for the higher electrical spec. In short, you could drop parts from a D alternator in, but I don't recommend it as a long term fix. You'll also need to account for the regulator, which is 'matched' to the unit- a Ducellier alt from a D requires a D-spec Ducellier reg, a Paris Rhone alt from an SM requires an SM-spec Paris Rhone reg, and so on.

    You might have better luck with the individual parts such as the bearings and the rectifier diodes than we normally see here in the US. Those parts have become difficult to find. You may find brushes with your local sparky. I've been able to refit brushes meant for one to another after a bit of shaving and a little prayer.If the stator or rotor is cooked or you need to replace the slip rings, I'm sure you can find a rewinding service.

    What leads you to believe you need an alternator for the SM? Is there no output, weak output, a mechanical grinding or rumbling, is it frozen? Are you sure the battery is up to snuff (I know- a complete pain in the ass on an SM)? If the battery is faulty, the alternator won't switch on basically because it has no reference point. All of the connections at the alternator and the regulator good and solid? If your battery is OK- switch on your ignition and check the "bob" terminal at the regulator. That's the 1/4" spade terminal coded pink or purple. That should show 12. 3, 12.4V or so- battery voltage. If you don't see a minimum of 11 or so volts there, your alternator will not charge simply because it hasn't been switched on.

    Has your charge light come on? If that's your only clue, check for output anyway. The way the regulators work, there is a seperate internal relay that operates the light by remaining 'contacts closed' until there is voltage sensed, then the relay opens, and kills the light. The light has nothing to do with actually switching things on, unlike damn near any internal regulator alt. If your regulator turns out to be the culprit, a Ford electronic regulator can be fitted inside the Paris Rhone case with minmum fuss. John Titus did a great write up on this, and Mark Bardenwerper managed to refine it.

    Going all that, and considering your local sparky has done all the usual checks, such as a full field test (where you force the alternator to ouput to within an inch of it's life), you're still seeing the need for an alternator. All well and good, but parts aren't readily available. The next thing I can recommend is a modern replacement. Bosch seems to be a popular answer for you guys. We don't see it often over here, although one of our members recently did the changeover to one, and is very pleased. Hookup was a doddle. You can also go the route I normally recommend, which is the GM Delcotron 12SI, but I know those aren't common in Oz. They are, however extremely reliable, plenty of power to run an SM, and a snap to rebuild should you ever need to. Parts, here anyway, are common as dirt. Another decent change over is the Iskra alternator you see on the European parts sites, such as Franzose.de, or from Miles at Western Hemispheres. They are pretty expensive, but the cases are an almost exact match for the D parts, and will probably fit to an SM without much trouble. Hookup again is pretty simple, and, as with the Delcotron or the Bosch you can actually retain the regulator as a mere wire board so you can retain a semi-original look- just need to remember to disconnect the "bob" wire!



    Bill
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  9. #9
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally View Post
    The failure in both my alternators is the rectifiers . Every thing else is fine except that I have only one brush pack, that I have been swaping to test them.
    Two local auto elects have tried to source new parts with no luck.
    I have a very friendly wrecker ( ex brother in law ) who has given me alternators before ( like a nice 180 amp unit on the rally car ) but with the SM I want to keep it origional.
    Will consider a working second hand unit as the car only does very low mileage.
    Does anybody have a contact number for Martin Bray?
    Trying not to sound desperate!
    Ha- it seems I'm in a bit late...

    So you need diodes and brushes. Let me see if I can come up with anything.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Rob T's Avatar
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    I have bought parts for the Paris Rhone in the CX from Wood Auto in the UK. They have updated their website since I last looked and no longer list the older models. But I would think that they can still get them. Easy to deal with and willling to post to Oz. Have a look here http://www.woodauto.com/default.aspx. I also have bought a replacement regulator from Ashdown / Ingram. It was expensive at about $100 but they could get one the same day. They must have been in stock in Brisbane. That was only about 3 or 4 years ago. The pic attached shows the regulator unit.

    The Paris Rhone in the CX really has died now. It has had multiple sets of brushes and bearings over the years but the stator now needs rewinding. One of the windings seems to have gone open. It can be re-wound at a reasonable price - but I fear that the rotor is not far behind. So, I am another who has gone for the Bosch replacement. A bit of hacking on one of their standard models has it just squeeking into position on the CX. The current hot weather has it working pretty hard to drive the air con and engine fans - but so far so good.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Paris Rhone Alternator failure  DS  /  SM-paris-rhone-alternator.jpg  
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  11. #11
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Check with Miles. It appears he has new and rebult alternators, a new (aftermarket) regulator, and some of the parts:

    http://westernhemispheres.com/wester...111A3766394D53
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  12. #12
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    Default Maybe worth a try?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rally View Post
    The failure in both my alternators is the rectifiers . Every thing else is fine except that I have only one brush pack, that I have been swaping to test them.
    Two local auto elects have tried to source new parts with no luck.
    I have a very friendly wrecker ( ex brother in law ) who has given me alternators before ( like a nice 180 amp unit on the rally car ) but with the SM I want to keep it origional.
    Will consider a working second hand unit as the car only does very low mileage.
    Does anybody have a contact number for Martin Bray?
    Trying not to sound desperate!
    Carravelle Imports (03) 9890 9061 did have brush packs (regulator?) new - so might be able to source what you need. Worth ringing Ken Bailey and asking him. Interstate response is apparently excellent, given the A/F posts on this forum.

    Regards

    Ken.

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