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  1. #1
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Icon12 Hoogy's DS 23 Pallas

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoogy View Post
    Hi Froggers,

    First time caller, long time listener.
    I'm very excited to say I am the new owner of the DS 23 Pallas. Just got it home last night on the back of a flatbed and yes all quarter panels and doors do need a bit of work and that's fine. The engine runs well but the car doesn't rise and the brakes don't work because the steering rack needs re-conditioning. I've downloaded the shop manuals and read the blow by blow on this forum as well so I am going to attempt pulling it out.
    Question is, once I have it in my greasy little hands can I re-condition it myself. It seems like it needs quite a few specialty tools. I called French Connection who are local to me but he's not working on DS's any more because of a lack of parts.
    Any advice will be appreciated and also thanks to the advice and guidance of Rev Dogboy who has been very gracious in replying to all my emails.
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger
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    If there is a huge problem with the rack, then as a test of the rest of the hydraulics, you could isolate it by making up a dummy plate for the hydraulic connection. There are a few connections on the DS that are a steel plate sandwich with sealing o-rings. Try making up a blanking steel plate and add it to the rack side of the sandwich fitting. That will give you some idea about the rest of the hydraulics vs the rack.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Yes, I have encountered one situation where someone unaware of the system had tightened down the valves on the rotating union and so the rack never got a look in, the fluid ran staight back to the reservoir.
    You can recon the rack yourself, I have done several BUT
    by now most have them have be reconed once and perhaps twice and are not easy to do again because it is no longer a simple case of changing seals.
    There is only one special mechanical tool needed, to undo the nut on the piston. I made one up. You will need a fitting and gauges to set up and test the cross over pressures. Again I made one and it is probably still in the NSW Club tool stock. If the valves are worn, lapping in new pistons is not for the faint hearted and best to get a recon unit.
    My preferred source for these and rebuilt racks is Citrogaz but with the postal charges these days it is not a cheap way to go.
    http://www.citrogaz.com/

    Once in the rack, if it has been left standing and unused for a long period you may well find that the centre of the cylinder is badly pitted. Also the piston could have corroded. If either is the case you are facing some precision engineering to resleeve the cylinder or rechrome the piston and I would consider it a throw away item.
    If the cylinder is perfect, requiring a little or no honing then your next challenge is to get a set of seals.
    My Indian friends made up several sets but had a lot of difficulty identifying the materials to copy them. They don't come straight out of a hydraulics parts catalogue. Again Michel at Citrogaz can advise on current supplies.
    Note that there are two diameters of cylinder, the early ones were smaller and the parts as rare as hen's teeth.
    Good luck!
    Think Global - Ride on Spheres

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    Fellow Frogger! IE23's Avatar
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    Nick Cascanis formerly Cars Of France now Darebin Tyre & Service Fairfield knows this car and has previously serviced it. I know this because I know the people you bought the car from.


    Adrian

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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger
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    Roger Parker at Oleopneumatics is worth speaking to about a rack reco as he has a test bed to ensure it's OK. I believe a straight overhaul and test is something like $700, but if it needs a new rotating coupling add the best part of another $1K apparently.

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    Yes, I have encountered one situation where someone unaware of the system had tightened down the valves on the rotating union and so the rack never got a look in, the fluid ran staight back to the reservoir.
    You can recon the rack yourself, I have done several BUT
    by now most have them have be reconed once and perhaps twice and are not easy to do again because it is no longer a simple case of changing seals.
    There is only one special mechanical tool needed, to undo the nut on the piston. I made one up. You will need a fitting and gauges to set up and test the cross over pressures. Again I made one and it is probably still in the NSW Club tool stock. If the valves are worn, lapping in new pistons is not for the faint hearted and best to get a recon unit.
    My preferred source for these and rebuilt racks is Citrogaz but with the postal charges these days it is not a cheap way to go.
    http://www.citrogaz.com/

    Once in the rack, if it has been left standing and unused for a long period you may well find that the centre of the cylinder is badly pitted. Also the piston could have corroded. If either is the case you are facing some precision engineering to resleeve the cylinder or rechrome the piston and I would consider it a throw away item.
    If the cylinder is perfect, requiring a little or no honing then your next challenge is to get a set of seals.
    My Indian friends made up several sets but had a lot of difficulty identifying the materials to copy them. They don't come straight out of a hydraulics parts catalogue. Again Michel at Citrogaz can advise on current supplies.
    Note that there are two diameters of cylinder, the early ones were smaller and the parts as rare as hen's teeth.
    Good luck!


    Gerry is the site under construction? I can't get to their parts department

    Maby it's because im iliterate in French Translator is on though...

    Cheers
    Corne
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    Thank you all for the suggestions.
    First thing I'll try is to isolate the steering unit as David suggests but apparently Nick from Cars of France has sorted the suspension. I'm going to have a talk to him to see if he can remember exactly what he did (he's a friend of a friend).
    I will have a look on the weekend and will follow the steps in the shop manual (against my usual inclination to just start pulling things apart and see what happens).
    I'll make a judgement once I get in there as to what to do next. Stand by for the photos of a once proud Pallas reduced to some (well ordered) parts.

  8. #8
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    The steering is not the issue. If the car will not rise and the brakes will not operate it is because there is no pressure (or very little) coming from the pressure regulator. This could be just a simple problem of the bleed circuit being open or the little ball bearing that shuts off the flow to the by-pass circuit in the pressure regulator having gone missing because someone removed the shut off nut. OTOH if one can shut off the the by-pass flow from the regulator and still no pressure build up, then the pump has gone south - well in your case north as you cannot get much more south that you already are

    The other possibility is that the reservoir filter is so dirty that no fluid, or very little, can get into the system.

    Steve in California

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    1000+ Posts dogboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    The steering is not the issue. If the car will not rise and the brakes will not operate it is because there is no pressure (or very little) coming from the pressure regulator. This could be just a simple problem of the bleed circuit being open or the little ball bearing that shuts off the flow to the by-pass circuit in the pressure regulator having gone missing because someone removed the shut off nut. OTOH if one can shut off the the by-pass flow from the regulator and still no pressure build up, then the pump has gone south - well in your case north as you cannot get much more south that you already are

    The other possibility is that the reservoir filter is so dirty that no fluid, or very little, can get into the system.

    Steve in California
    I looked at this car and it has a reasonable hydraulic leak but without a hoist and not much LHM to waste I couldn't locate the source however fixing the leak would be the first step...then bleed system
    The rack was already identified by Nick of cars of France as being in need of an overhaul...
    cheers
    Rev. Dogboy


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  10. #10
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    The system is basically devoid of any LHM.

    Does anyone have any idea how much I will need to find the source of the leak.

    The car came with a small bottle of LHM. Also where are Melbourne Froggers buying their LHM?


    Thanks,

    John.

  11. #11
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    Step 1
    Clean the entire area of the engine bay particularly the left side. Meticulously clean the hydraulic return lines and all the fittings.
    Clean the pressure regulator and its large rubber return line.

    Look for any oil stains along the sides of the chassis and in the area of both the brakes and the suspension units both front and rear.
    Clean in petrol, the green plastic filter assembly attached to the suction pipe for the hydraulic pump which comes from the reservoir.

    Step 2
    Buy 4 litres of LHM, if you're not in a club, then Bursons can buy in Penrite LHM+. Buy 4 litres at least.

    Step3
    Put at least 2 litres of LHM in the reservoir and open the bleeed screw on the pressure regulator. 12mm ring spanner preferable.

    Step4
    Start the car.
    Look for the leak, probably on the left side.
    Then look in the areas previously mentioned in Step1.

    Step5
    If the leak can't be located, or there is no leak present, do up (nip up only, NOT tight,tight!) the pressure regualtor bleed screw and look again.
    Your leak will present itself if not internal.
    If an internal leak, then that's a different procedure.

    Follow these steps and then read again what Citroenfan had to say and follow his advice.

    Hope this helps.

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    Thanks Richo,

    Good advice and that's exactly what I'll do. I've just filled out the paperwork to become a member of the club so I'll have to wait a couple of weekends to check the system since I won't have access to LHM this weekend and am away next weekend. Maybe I can take the front guards off instead and start pulling out some of the dents at the same time.

    Cheers.

  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I'd be tempted to put the cheapest ATF in it i can find until I'd fixed all the leaks. If it *isn't* leaking badly though, this could work out more expensive as you'd have to flush it probably twice with LHM to remove all the traces of ATF. I'm still contemplating if I should put Dexron in the ID19 here to use it as a flush (it appears to be full of detergents).

    Remember mineral fluids won't hurt LHM hydraulics (though there certainly not designed to run them for any length of time)

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger
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    If you need LHM in a hurry, Penrite sell it in 2.5 litre bottles, so any place with a good range of Penrite products may have it on the shelf. European Auto Imports carry Bendix brand LHM at about $12 per litre, so that's another option for you.

    It's probably not a great idea to let the LHM pump run dry.

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    Yep, Bursons in Heidelberg has 2.5 litres Penrite left. I'll swing by after work to get it.

    I guess it's OK to mix different brands of LHM?

  16. #16
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    yeah, i hope your sitting down when you see the price of bursons LHM though (I think they must stock it for rolls royce owners.... who don't look at the price tag).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  17. #17
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    If the system is devoid of fluid then that is the reason you have no suspension or brakes. At this point the hydraulic system is now full of air. Follow Richo's advice about the quanity of fluid to put in the reservoir.

    I will only add the following. With the bleed screw open about 1 turn start the engine and let the pump/pr expel entrapped air back into the reservoir for about 2 minutes. While this is going on open the fill port on the reservoir and look inside with a light. You should be able to see fluid issuing for a curved steel tube via the anti-siphon hole.

    Tighten the bleed screw til just snug. When you do this you should both hear the pump change sound (pumping under pressure) and the fluid that was issuing from the anti-siphon hole should now have stopped. If neither of the above happens it means the pressure regulator has a problem with the by-pass circuit. If fluid does stop issuing from that little hole, but the car will not come up to pressure (pressure light off) then the most likely cause is a bad pump.

    Steve

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    1000+ Posts dogboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    If the system is devoid of fluid then that is the reason you have no suspension or brakes. At this point the hydraulic system is now full of air. Follow Richo's advice about the quanity of fluid to put in the reservoir.

    I will only add the following. With the bleed screw open about 1 turn start the engine and let the pump/pr expel entrapped air back into the reservoir for about 2 minutes. While this is going on open the fill port on the reservoir and look inside with a light. You should be able to see fluid issuing for a curved steel tube via the anti-siphon hole.

    Tighten the bleed screw til just snug. When you do this you should both hear the pump change sound (pumping under pressure) and the fluid that was issuing from the anti-siphon hole should now have stopped. If neither of the above happens it means the pressure regulator has a problem with the by-pass circuit. If fluid does stop issuing from that little hole, but the car will not come up to pressure (pressure light off) then the most likely cause is a bad pump.

    Steve
    should the height lever be in the low position when all this is being done? depressurising the hydraulic system??
    Rev. Dogboy


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  19. #19
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogboy View Post
    should the height lever be in the low position when all this is being done? depressurising the hydraulic system??
    Makes no difference, the height lever only effect the pressure is the suspension, not the pump/regulator pressure. as soon as you open the bleed screw, the fluid pumps through the pump, into the regulator and back to the tank. So the setting of anything "hydraulic" on the car isn't relevant

    seeya
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogboy View Post
    should the height lever be in the low position when all this is being done? depressurising the hydraulic system??
    The only way to depressurise the hydraulic system is via the bleed screw at the pressure regulator which is what I have outlined in my suggested procedure.

    The low position of the height lever will only succeed in depressurising the suspension system, which in this case is unlikely to be of benefit, given the unknown condition of the rest of the system.

    Hope this explains.

  21. #21
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    Gerry,

    I reseal racks/pumps/regulators/CRC's etc., for a living here in the States and feel that I need to set things a bit straight about steering rack repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed
    You can recon the rack yourself, I have done several BUT by now most have them have be reconed once and perhaps twice and are not easy to do again because it is no longer a simple case of changing seals.
    Not so. As long as the power piston is not compromised and the rotating union shaft not grooved from the RU body, the seals can be replaced any number of times. The real problem, these days, is that replacement seals kits available are not made to the exact specifications the factory designated. The Teflon wear strips are a bit thicker and the rubber backing strips are a bit thinner. This is not a good combination. I machine my own seals and do two things.

    1) The Teflon wear strips are made exactly to the factory specifications.

    2) The backing rings are made 0.005" thicker than the originals out of a very high strength Buna-N rubber (LHM units). This ensures proper 'squeeze' + the backing rings do not take nearly the compression set the ones in the seal kits do.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed
    There is only one special mechanical tool needed, to undo the nut on the piston. I made one up. You will need a fitting and gauges to set up and test the cross over pressures. Again I made one and it is probably still in the NSW Club tool stock. If the valves are worn, lapping in new pistons is not for the faint hearted and best to get a recon unit. My preferred source for these and rebuilt racks is Citrogaz but with the postal charges these days it is not a cheap way to go. http://www.citrogaz.com/
    Again not the whole story. One does needs a socket on a hollow extension to remove the internal control rod from the pinon after the power piston has been removed from the rack body. In addition you need a special extractor for the pin connecting the control rod from the outside end of the power piston unless you want to run the very real risk of screwing that end by using a hammer and drift. Add to that non-marring lockable wrenches to actually take the rack apart. The slide valves in the Cit are all 0.2505" +/- 0.00008" (2 microns). Lapping new valves - you have got to be kidding.

    As to setting the cross-over pressures. The best way do to so is on tester prior to putting the unit back in the car. Unless the rack had a problem with center flickering or oscillation prior to being removed from the car, it is really best to just leave that adjustment alone. As I have the proper test set up I check them after a rebuild while on the bench being pressure and leak check. Typically I only have to fool with that adjustment in maybe 10% of the racks I have done. It sounds sexy to some one who does not understand what is being done, but without some experience in doing it you can get into a heap of problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed
    Once in the rack, if it has been left standing and unused for a long period you may well find that the centre of the cylinder is badly pitted. Also the piston could have corroded. If either is the case you are facing some precision engineering to resleeve the cylinder or rechrome the piston and I would consider it a throw away item. If the cylinder is perfect, requiring a little or no honing then your next challenge is to get a set of seals. My Indian friends made up several sets but had a lot of difficulty identifying the materials to copy them. They don't come straight out of a hydraulics parts catalogue. Again Michel at Citrogaz can advise on current supplies.
    Note that there are two diameters of cylinder, the early ones were smaller and the parts as rare as hen's teeth.
    LHS racks are the ones quite prone to internal corrosion. LHM racks, so long as they have been protected from the elements, are almost invariably good to prefect inside. If the power piston cylinder is corroded one is not going to sleeve and rebore/grind. For the cost of that one could buy a new rack. Typically all power piston cylinder needs is cleaning with a circular brass wire brush so the walls are smooth. Not sure what your Indian friend's problem was. The sliding/rotating seals in the entire unit are Teflon, the backing rings are either Buna-N or EDPM rubber (depending on fluid) as are the 4 0-rings. The two anti- extrusion seals in the power piston are Nylon as are the two center spacers for the power piston.

    But to the real problem. There are a some special mandrels one needs to either get the seals in position or after they are in position getting the parts together. If you don't have these tools, about 3 out of 4 times (maybe 2 out of 3) you will rip the Teflon wear strips apart or worse create a crease in the surface that will cause the rack to start leaking soon after it has been assembled and put into service.

    As to the older and later racks. There are two differences. Earlier racks (pre 7/67) used a 21mm diameter power piston. Later racks use a 19mm power piston. Prior to 1965 the RU had 5 0-rings in it - after 1965 there are 4 Teflon wear strips for the HP ports and 1 0-ring that seals off the return port. Actual internal dimensions for both power piston end and RU remained the same. The reason the factory decreased the size of the piston is that by doing so it increased the amount of force available to assist in steering. All they had to change from a sealing standpoint was to change the OD/ID of the Teflon seals and the backing rings. If one does not have the facilities to make them, Western Hemispheres in Watsonville, CA carries seals for both types of racks - Miles gets them from the usual suspects in Europe.

    Prior to 1963 things get a bit more complicate as the factory had 2 major revisions to the power piston assembly in 5/58 and 12/63.

    Steve
    Last edited by Citroenfan; 18th November 2011 at 07:07 PM. Reason: Added info

  22. #22
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    This knowledge is stunning. We will have to make sure this post doesn't get "lost". I'll see if we can move it to a Wiki page here.

    Thanks Steve!
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneSoutAfrica View Post
    Gerry is the site under construction? I can't get to their parts department

    Maby it's because im iliterate in French Translator is on though...

    Cheers
    Corne
    It's his new site and apparently not functional. He can be found at
    CLISSON JEAN MICHEL
    Adresse : LE MOULIN DES ISOLES, 79420 Clavé
    Téléphone : 05 49 64 12 34
    email : [email protected]

    He does not speak English but is fluent in DS.

    but if Roger Parker has the parts your logistics are much easier.
    In far off days there was a company in Unanderra that did work for BHP and had a lahe with precision chrome plating for repairing mill rollers. They remade a piston for me and a rocker shaft for a DS.
    I also had a mandrel for the seals. The Indian seals were OK, they identified the PTFE and nylon but got the rubber wrong.
    Water in he LHS2 fluid was a nightmare but I chucked away two LHM racks through corrosion in the centre from cars that had hung around unused for yars. Had a CX rack like that as well, even though or because it was in alu.

    The most important rule in preserving a hydropneumatic car is to drive it, they hate sitting still. Memo to self: must take the GS shopping today.
    Think Global - Ride on Spheres

  24. #24
    Thank God for my Hydroen harrisson_citroen's Avatar
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    Default re-using lhm

    Whilst on the subject of lhm leaks, I always meant to ask:
    Is it ok to re-use fresh lhm you have just poured through the system and lost again due to the leak you are trying to locate if collected in a container underneath the car?
    Which is the best way to filter it before re-introducing to the system? pantyhose?
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisson_citroen View Post
    Whilst on the subject of lhm leaks, I always meant to ask:
    Is it ok to re-use fresh lhm you have just poured through the system and lost again due to the leak you are trying to locate if collected in a container underneath the car?
    Which is the best way to filter it before re-introducing to the system? pantyhose?
    Could I be so brave as to suggest that removing the pantyhose first would be essential and potentially more fun. But seriously, running it through some filter paper (maybe a couple of layers of coffee filter) should be OK, remembering there is a filter in the tank to pick up really fine crud.

    Ensure there is absolutely no water contamination of the LHM though.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

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