C5 2.2 Hdi error codes and loss of power
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  1. #1
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    Default C5 2.2 Hdi error codes and loss of power

    Hi All, I have posted on this before, but it is more serious now, so some extra help is needed.

    The car is a C5 hatch 2005 2.2 Hdi 4 speed auto. It has done 130K.

    After a short distance of driving, the antipollution fault occurs on the display, then also esp/asr not working etc accompanied by lots of warning bells, then it disables cruise control and eventually feels like it is going into limp home mode.

    The engine will rev above 2,500 rpm but has no power. I can get around by using the manual part of the gear box and keeping it at higher revs. but it just doesn't pull.

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    Citroen dealer looked at it, cleared the error codes and said there was no fault. The consistent error code is a fault in the glow plug relay.

    It has gradually gotten more consistent, so that now it happens on every journey.

    Things I have done:

    • Changed fuel and air filters with no success.
    • Checked that the anti-swirl valve opens above 2,500 rpm.
    • Tested the vacuum of both the anti-swirl valve line and the turbo thingy line on the side of the turbo.
    • Looked for leaks in all vacuum lines
    • Checked that the turbo appears to be coming on at times and blows air out of the pipes into the intercooler. (In other words, I think the turbo itself works, but it is possibly being disabled by the elctronics...)

    the only thing I have found is that the inlet manifold has a fair amount of oily gunge all over it's inside, as I presume the EGR pipe which I don't know how to clean.

    More clues needed please, as this is now a serious fault. I will take it back to the dealer, but I need to know what to ask them to check.

    Other possibles are:

    • A faulty relay controlling the turbo (but it should trow up a sensible error code)
    • A faulty MAF sensor.
    • A previous post said "Erik, you could have an issue with the turbo. Has anyone checked that the actuator for varying the boost operates correctly and smoothly? I know of another example of your model that had similar symptoms to yours under load and it was eventually traced to the turbo adjustment actuator sticking." (Where is this?????)

    HELP PLEASE

    Erik

  2. #2
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    what your saying is you need to find out whats wrong with it, so you can tell the dealer how to fix it ,says a lot ,sorry!!! i have C5 and it too has had its mystery moments ,PUGS

  3. #3
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    This sounds like the "Y" pipe on the air side has cracked. There have been a number of these and it is an easy fix IIRC.

    Please note my emphasis on it sounds like and following comments below I am now aware that the engine type is wrong for the issue described.
    Last edited by UFO; 3rd October 2011 at 06:12 PM.
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  4. #4
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    Normally, one tells the mechanic/dealer the symptoms of the problem and they are then supposed to figure it out. The ESP and other faults may be due to a downgrade mode resulting from what you are seeing as an anti-pollution fault. The ESP issue is unlikely to cause the anti-pollution fault.

    Vacuum Y-piece failures affect cars with RHR in the VIN, being 2.0 DW10B HDi engines. When this happens, the car is simply gutless to drive and will hold gears for longer to compensate. The 2.2 DW12 engine can have vacuum issues too, as reported in a recent thread about similar symptons that turned out to be a vacuum solenoid.

    Look for fuel/oil at the fuse box sockets as it can sometimes enter at the plug on the fuel filter and make it's way around to anything connected to the harness and produce similar symptoms.

    The turbo issue mentioned before would be unusual and the symptoms were different. However, one of the fingers retaining the vacuum capsule actuator rod had snapped and the variable operation of the turbo was erratic as a result.

    Another potential problem with the 2.2HDi 4 speeders is leakage of coolant into the air circuit via the exchanger just behind the radiator. Be wary of any unexplained coolant loss on these engines as coolant can leak and accumulate in the exchanger and then ruin the engine when it is sucked up. If you find evidence of coolant in the turbo air pipes and your engine is still good, you have been lucky. Replacing the exchanger or fitting a bypass to the coolant side of the exchager would address this.
    Last edited by David S; 3rd October 2011 at 06:08 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikbm View Post
    Hi All, I have posted on this before, but it is more serious now, so some extra help is needed.

    The car is a C5 hatch 2005 2.2 Hdi 4 speed auto. It has done 130K.

    After a short distance of driving, the antipollution fault occurs on the display, then also esp/asr not working etc accompanied by lots of warning bells, then it disables cruise control and eventually feels like it is going into limp home mode.

    The engine will rev above 2,500 rpm but has no power. I can get around by using the manual part of the gear box and keeping it at higher revs. but it just doesn't pull.

    Citroen dealer looked at it, cleared the error codes and said there was no fault. The consistent error code is a fault in the glow plug relay.

    It has gradually gotten more consistent, so that now it happens on every journey.

    Things I have done:

    • Changed fuel and air filters with no success.
    • Checked that the anti-swirl valve opens above 2,500 rpm.
    • Tested the vacuum of both the anti-swirl valve line and the turbo thingy line on the side of the turbo.
    • Looked for leaks in all vacuum lines
    • Checked that the turbo appears to be coming on at times and blows air out of the pipes into the intercooler. (In other words, I think the turbo itself works, but it is possibly being disabled by the elctronics...)

    the only thing I have found is that the inlet manifold has a fair amount of oily gunge all over it's inside, as I presume the EGR pipe which I don't know how to clean.

    More clues needed please, as this is now a serious fault. I will take it back to the dealer, but I need to know what to ask them to check.

    Other possibles are:

    • A faulty relay controlling the turbo (but it should trow up a sensible error code)
    • A faulty MAF sensor.
    • A previous post said "Erik, you could have an issue with the turbo. Has anyone checked that the actuator for varying the boost operates correctly and smoothly? I know of another example of your model that had similar symptoms to yours under load and it was eventually traced to the turbo adjustment actuator sticking." (Where is this?????)

    HELP PLEASE

    Erik
    Erik - I had a 2007 C5 2.2 that did the same thing sometimes. I thought it might be fuel related, but went through the whole process and it still did it when it felt like it. No warning, just decided to go sluggish. Exactly what you described. I stopped the car, turned the engine off and waited for 5 minutes and it was cleared. I went to the local Citroen dealer who said 'it might be electronic but we don't know much about Citroens. we've just got the franchise. Sorry mate.'
    I took the car to Brisbane Citroen and they put it on their diagnostic system to see if the car computer had 'remembered' the fault, but nothing. They checked everything they could think of, but?? nothing. Had it for 3 days.
    An odd thing was that it happened most often if I stopped on an incline, (traffic lights) and then started off up the hill, AND on the highway sometimes when i tried to put the cruise control on - it wouldn't come on and registered a fault. Car went into snail mode.
    I had the car less than a year, and traded it this year on a Peugeot 3008. I can't help you at all unfortunately, but I couldn't live with it because you never knew what it would do if you had to get out of some idiots way suddenly or accelerate quickly and it 'died' ....bang! Loved the car, but unfortunately that the way it was. It cost a lot of money which we couldn't afford, and upset me greatly because I liked it so much and was really excited when I bought it, but it all went wrong. I would just ask the dealer to plug it in to their diagnostic system and see if there is any fault 'remembered' and also note what the other guys have said and get them to check those aspects.
    good luck .....if they can't find it you better trade it on a Camry so at least you know you will be able to climb the hills to home. Say hullo to my old home town for me. Kev.

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Ken W's Avatar
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    This couldn't be another engine fusebox failure could it. An intermittant in the engine fuse box certainly bought all the lights on in our C5 X7 and engine and GB into limp home mode - no boost and 3rd gear only. We had a new fusebox fitted under warranty. There was a fault code stored but no explanation to go with it. This is an RHR engine with AM6 GB.

    Cheers,

    Ken W

  7. #7
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    Vacuum Y-piece failures affect cars with RHR in the VIN, being 2.0 DW10B HDi engines. When this happens, the car is simply gutless to drive and will hold gears for longer to compensate. The 2.2 DW12B engine can have vacuum issues too, as reported in a recent thread about similar symptons that turned out to be a vacuum solenoid.

    The VIN code, if that is what you are talking about is VF7RC4HXE76654269. Where is the vacuum Y piece that I need to check? How do I check whether solenoids are working or not?

    I know the dealer is suppposed to know everything, so I will have another go, but like everyone else, I can't afford for them to learn at my expense.

    Will look for some of the issues raised and keep you posted.

    Cheers Erik

  8. #8
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    Erik, the RHR bit would replace 4HX in your VIN if it was a 2.0 DW10B engine. It just happens that for the last decade, PSA have used these characters in the VIN to identify various engines in their cars. The y-piece is not going to be your problem. Look elsewhere. Make sure all the turbo hoses are fitted securely and there are no splits, which are not unknown and often given away by oil leakage, low boost and excessive smoke from the exhaust. You could even have faulty EGR, but I think we'll all just be guessing unless you find something obvious.

    As a general note, problems that affect one model don't necessarily affect another model. Fuse box issues in X7's are not the same as what can occur in other and earlier models, just as the problems with the twin turbo 2.2's are not the same as you find in the earlier single turbo versions. It can be very confusing because there have been numerous engine and gearbox changes over the life of the C5 range.
    Last edited by David S; 3rd October 2011 at 06:21 PM.

  9. #9
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    Thanks David,
    I understand that this is quite a different engine from most of the others and that each of them eventually develop their own set of issues. If it didn't have a computer log of faults, mechanics would work out more foolproof ways of diagnosing the problem, instead of believing the computer. If I had a computer attached to my fireplace, I am sure that it would try to persuade me that the lack of updraft in the flue indicated it was time to replace a blocked flue, when it fact it had just run low on firewood.



    Where is the egr valve? Is it at the end of the egr pipe and sitting above the turbo? If the egr pipe is 30% blocked willl that cause error codes?

    Erik

  10. #10
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    Default MAF meter maybe?

    I had very similar issues with my 'other' vehicle, a VW Transporter 2500HDi ex-ambulance. After 3 different mechanics, I finally found, by 'phone http://www.sydneydieselcentre.com.au/

    The guy there suggested the MAF, and told me to test it by simply disconnecting the plug to it (near the air cleaner), to see whether it made any difference. It didn't, so it was. I ordered a new one on eBay from the UK, for 72 quid, vs $283 quoted by VW Australia. Put it in (simple) and wow, back to better than normal, after a slow build up over a few days. I presume the computer was getting up to speed again. Other reasons could be the a crack or leak anywhere on the 'vacuum' side, or the back pressure sensor just before the particulate filter. I gather they can get water in them. See this forum :http://www.eurovan2.com/forum/eurova...-2-2hdi-6.html

    cheers,

    Alan H

  11. #11
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    Default Maf? Egr?

    Thanks Alan,

    I had also found this advice on how to test it on another site and was about to try it.
    First I cleared the existing error codes, because I had been disconnecting various bits of the system to try to find a cause.

    Then I found it has run perfectly, so i will just have to wait for it to fail again. In the meantime I have discovered (THANKS to David's post) that my engine is a different one to what I thought and that my EOBD reader actually has a special setting for it and when I checked for new errors, they now have an explanation of the codes, rather than just a number. Even though it ran normally (as in OK) it threw up error codes P0380(pre/post heating relay circuit fault) and P0120 (EGR throttle solenoid valve short circuit).

    I also used the reader to check the live readings for the MAF and they appeared to do what it should do, which is increase smoothly on throttle usage and then drop smoothly back. If I can get it to throw another hissy fit I will check the readings again.

    In the meantime, I suspect an EGR something? Anyone know where it is?

    Thanks for all of your replies. Keep them coming and maybe the series 2 C5 diesel can be saved from 'lemon' statehoood, because it is a very nice car...
    Erik

  12. #12
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    The EGR valve is at the back right corner of the engine. You should hear a change in engine note when it is cut in /out. You coud pull the vaccum hose off it temporarily to ensure it operates. There are at least 5 vacuum solenoids - three under the cover near the left sphere, one down low on top of the gearbox and another under the intake pipe. I think you've probably found all of these if you checked the vacuum lines, but it's not impossible for one to fail. Are any of them becoming very hot? That may indicate a fault.

    Can you read the injector correction factors? There is a limit of acceptable correction of something like +/- 8 or 9%, beyond which you'd get an error of some kind. As an example, cars that have had a drink of water and have low compression due to a bent rod would likely idle badly and also have an unusually high injector correction factor on the damaged cylinder as it attempts to compensate. Hopefully, not your problem, but worth looking at if you can get the info.

    Have you cleaned out the breather pipe? If the heat exchanger has ever leaked, you are likely to find it has a lot of emulsified oil/water stuck in it. The EGR pipe is the stainless pipe that runs around to the front of the engine and it might be worth cleaning out too, but is probably OK if you can hear the change in engine note when you enable/disable the EGR valve. Make sure you check for evidence of coolant in the engine air hoses and possibly look at bypassing the coolant side of the exchanger.

  13. #13
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    I tried to remove the inlet manifold to clean out all of the gunk, but after undoing the required 28 something bolts (I think I had a few more) and then realising that the injector studs also had to come out (used a socket on them, despite them being a female version of a torx tool), I still couldn't get the thing to shift, even with a jemmy bar and gentle hammering. Eventually bit the bullet and took it to the dealer.

    A new error code has recently appeared, so now they read:

    1. Heater relay (glow plug?)
    2. EGR valve circuit problem
    3. Throttle control

    I couldn't work out how to test the EGR, but it had a reasonable vacuum in the line from it that dropped when the throttle opened, so I thought it might be OK. While I had my suspicions firmly centred on the EGR valve being faulty (since the other vacuum lines were testing OK, the dealer says it is the accelerator pedal! This is a 'fly by wire' setup, that sends out an electric signal to tell the ECU how far down the pedal was pushed and therefore how much fuel to inject, what gear to select, whether the turbo is required, etc.

    As is usual with my skill with vehicles, this is the first of these faults thay have found in the C5 2.2 hdi (but of course they haven't seen the other cars that our forum has noted were traded in because no fault could be found) and of course there is no replacement in OZ, since it is the first one to fail and the part is incredibly expensive ($570) and has to come from France...

    Amazingly enough (for once) my mate has a wrecked Pug 407 with a similar engine and the throttle is EXACTLY THE SAME!! Price is yet to be agreed upon, but at least I can put it in and see if it clears the problem, without forking out $600 first.

    I will keep you posted.

    For others who are trying to diagnose similar problems, to test the anti-swirl valve, which opens the extra set of inlet valves at high revs, you can first of all observe that lever (on the lhs of the engine at the level of the inlet gasket and has a long rod disappearing into the bowels of the firewall area, opens/moves at about 2300 rpm. The other check for this is to connect a vacuum guage to the sensor down teh bottom of the engine at the rear on the lhs (need to take off some things under the engine and connect in a t-piece (a windscreen washer one will do) and check that it has good vacuum at idle and increasing (I think on acceleration). There is an easier spot to access the vacuum pipes where they come up the top at the back of the engine and go into the relays, but I can't remember which is which.

    To test the turbo vacuum, you put the t-piece into the pipe coming off the turbo (bottom rear centre of engine) and check it has good vacuum at idle and increases (I think) on acceleration.

    To check the EGR valve, you can find it (as David says) at the back of the engine near the top and the vacuum line is fairly easy to unplug, or you can follow the top vacuum line along the top of the firewall into the relays on the lhs near the lh sphere and you will find the other end of it there. It has good vacuum at idle and this drops as the revs increase.

    To check the MAF (mass air flow) sensor, without a reader, you can insert a multimeter probe into the 2nd wire from the front of the sensor (at the rear of the air filter in the big pipe going to the rear) and check the DC voltage. This will start low at idle and will steadily increase as revs increase and then will steadily drop back as revs drop. You can also try tapping the MAF with a hammer (gently) and if the reading jerks around, then you have a problem.

    Cheers Erik

  14. #14
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    Default Fixed!

    Well, who would have believed that a faulty accelerator pedal would be the problem.

    I have replaced it with the Pug one and so far it has worked perfectly.

    Thanks for your thoughts and other ideas. At least now I know what all of the vacuum tubes do.

    Cheers Erik.

  15. #15
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikbm View Post
    Well, who would have believed that a faulty accelerator pedal would be the problem.
    Erik,

    Good to hear.

    For the benefit of this thread, what led you to replace the throttle pedal?
    Regards,

    Simon

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    I hope that's fixed your problem Erik. So, one of those faults obviously showed something like a fault in one of the pedal circuit tracks or some incoherent signal???

    The glow plug fault may mean you need one or more glow plugs. A bad glow plug may not cause much of a problem, but you can check them if you go to their connector at the back of the head at the gearbox end. It's a 4 way plug and each lead goes to a glow-plug, so you can see if any of them have failed open circuit with a multimeter.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLC206 View Post
    Erik,

    Good to hear.

    For the benefit of this thread, what led you to replace the throttle pedal?
    It was diagnosed by the dealer, who said that one of the two tracks was not functioning. It would have been more impressive if they had managed to do so the first few times the problem showed up about 30K ago, but I am pleased that it is now solved.

    I have now had trouble free motoring for two days and 500km and it is wonderful to be able to overtake cars with confidence on the highway again.

    Erik

  18. #18
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    Thanks for some of the answers earlier on in this thread, they helped us sort out a perplexing loss of power
    Our 2006 diesel C5 lost turbo boost, a quick search on Aussiefrogs for some clues and I found the reference to the Y piece in a vacuum line on cars with RHR in the Vin. No.
    5 minutes later and some Blue Tack over the crack and the car drove like new again,
    Now we just have to repair the problem in a more permanent fashion................
    what a cheap fix!
    Thanks again for sharing your knowledge
    Hugo
    Last edited by citds67; 22nd December 2013 at 02:54 PM.
    :

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikbm View Post
    It was diagnosed by the dealer, who said that one of the two tracks was not functioning. It would have been more impressive if they had managed to do so the first few times the problem showed up about 30K ago, but I am pleased that it is now solved.

    I have now had trouble free motoring for two days and 500km and it is wonderful to be able to overtake cars with confidence on the highway again.

    Erik
    Great outcome, at last you might say. Could be the dealer's early failure to diagnose was that it really wasn't showing up as a fault, or perhaps no-one believed it!

    Any chance of labelled photos to go with the descriptions, e.g. " the 2nd wire from the front of the sensor (at the rear of the air filter in the big pipe going to the rear"

    I was talking to a couple of folk well versed in this sort of thing and their views were that the C5 is pretty good and certainly not worse than other modern devices, and they shuddered at the word "V***********n". All image eh?
    JohnW

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    Very sad case......

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