C5 wheel alignment and tyre question
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Thread: C5 wheel alignment and tyre question

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default C5 wheel alignment and tyre question

    I am looking to have a wheel alignment done on my 2001 C5 HDI, along with 4 new tyres.
    One tyre seller tells me I should have a "4 wheel alignment", and another says that the rear is not adjustable . So is the 4 wheel adjustment doable, or front only?

    WRT tyres; what are the opinions on the following: Michelin Primacy; Michelin XM2; Pirelli P6; Bridgestone Ecopia? Or another brand??

    Cheers
    Michael

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    There’s nothing to align unless the tyres are wearing abnormally.
    Only the parallelism is adjustable at the front, and it doesn’t go out by itself.
    The tyres would need rotating front to back every 10,000 km because the front ones normally wear on the outside.

    I have Michelins XM1+ with a squared edge at the outside.
    Size 195/65/15 costs $158 from TyrePlus.
    Last edited by Clogzz; 21st July 2011 at 06:16 PM. Reason: Typo
    2003 C5 2.0i AL4 196,000 km 76372389

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    Michael, give the 4 wheel alignment man the shove..he has no idea of what he is talking about..there is, as stated above, nothing adjustable on the rear of a C5. The rear suspension arms are just that .. trailing arms that are mounted and pivot in roller bearings...no bushes or adjustment...the entire rear cross member IS rubber mounted but that is a noise and harshness barrier only...

    Now a current generation C5 is a different matter altogether with many rubber bushed and mounted arms seemingly going in every direction..maybe he has seen something like that..but an ORIGINAL first generation C5 like yours .. no way.

    You are lucky to have such a choice of rubber. Later C5s have 16 inch wheels which limits choice a bit..55 profile narrows the choices even further AND the requirement for W speed rating ( as stated on the door and therefore with legal implications ) really limits the available options. For a middle ranging 2 litre diesel these 270 km/h tyres are way over the top in specifications. I have an aversion to Pirelli products, the result of several disappointments on several cars. ( but may need to consider P7s for their W rating ) XM1+ were nice and smooth and quiet and good value for the $$$$, not so the Primacy, which are considerably dearer ( and that's IF Michelin have stock ). I really like TOYO Teo Plus ...super quiet and as grippy as anything else I have used.

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    Default tyres

    I had the Toyo teo's on the Xantia & they were great, the '02 C5 will need tyres in about 3 mths so priced the teos a couple of days ago. $130 f&b I think is good value, cheers Dave

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    My car came with well-worn Toyo Transas Teo tyres, and they were sensational.
    I wore them out and got three new Michelins mostly to match the spare MH1 that hadnít been used much, and the spare wheel got a worn Toyo.
    2003 C5 2.0i AL4 196,000 km 76372389

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    On the front end, you get to adjust the toe and that's pretty much it. However, aside from checks for bent parts, bearing and ball joint wear, you should check the state of the rubber bushes on the front lower control arms. If these are soggy, the handling will be poor and changing them will make a large difference. I changed them on a 2001 HDi and it transformed the car.

    For tyres for early C5, V6 owners should remember there is a minimum 97 load rating, while the 2.0 and HDi are 91.
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    yeh dont you love the $60 for a "wheel alignment" where they screw one tierod bolt to do the toe-in

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    So when you have the 2 wheel alignment what do they reference it to, the vehicle centre line or the rear wheel thrust angle???


    Jo

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    Will be in the market soon for new tyres for our C5 and had a few queries

    • When all four wheels are suspended on hoist, are you supposed to have LDS cap loosened and height adjusted to highest position, for Hydractive 3?
    • After wheel alignment, if steering wheel is not centred do you need a Diag tool or similar to correct this? Would be surprised if a tyre dealer has one?
    • Having done 80,000kms, what component of the suspension should I get them to check that might contribute to excessive wear on the shoulder of left front tyre?

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    One shoulder worn is usually camber wear - misalignment or a damaged joint rubber, something bent, etc. Two shoulders suggests under-inflation. You don't need Diagbox to get the steering wheel centred.

    The fastest way to check all four wheel alignment at once is to stop on a set of slip plates (Platetronic etc). The computer gives an immediate four wheel read out as well as braking balance.

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    I understand that there should be a 'steering angle sensor reset' done after a wheel alignment? For a C5, does this just involve turning steering wheel fully from one lock to the other?

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    You guys are amazing, and your knowledge invaluable! I too am in the market for new tyres all round on my 2002 c5 exclusive v6. I have been to Bob Jane at Bondi Junction, and they are suggesting Bridgestones! Any one got any other thoughts please. I want to take "Ella" on a country trip soon, and she needs comfy treads, and safe ones.
    Last edited by Golfa; 9th March 2018 at 12:41 PM.

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    I have found Bridgstones good. Last set are Ecopia, very deep tread. There is an offer of "buy 3 get 4" over here at the moment.
    Allan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tasie C5 View Post
    I have found Bridgstones good. Last set are Ecopia, very deep tread. There is an offer of "buy 3 get 4" over here at the moment.
    Allan.
    I am intrigued bu the question about "steering angle sensor"... when last on Lexia it dispensed the message that the steering angle sensor was faulty.....talented operator stated that is normal .. they all say that. Can't say I have noticed any problem... however ... The second nose C5 has started overcontrolling the front height especially when on full lock ( either way ) when the nose rises considerably, and then is pulled down to normal height when wheels are returned closer to straight ahead. ( about the time it goes into second gear )
    The car is on comfort spheres which do allow more float at speed but this is definite over reaction.
    I have yet to have a look under the car and peek at roll bar and height sensor bracketry.

    Do height sensors fail ( in which case what are the symptoms )... I have ordered new roll bar bushes and will go investigating when they arrive. Do height sensor links do the BX style act of popping out ? Slop ? Age ? debris/striking damage ? Maybe even water entry into the sensor ?

    Any suggestions gentlemen ? Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turnbull151 View Post
    I understand that there should be a 'steering angle sensor reset' done after a wheel alignment? For a C5, does this just involve turning steering wheel fully from one lock to the other?
    Hi turnbull
    As there is only a toe in adjustment which can be done, the adjustment should be always done by equal turns on both sides. Thus the steering wheel is not affected. "should" being the operative word, not always achieved by crap operators.
    When you want to have the wheels removed it is best to put the car on full high and leave it there for the jacking and removal and replacing it on the floor. Then take it down again after. Otherwise the suspension will be tricked out and end up flat on the hoist or jack when it is lowered.
    The problem is you may not be allowed in to supervise the operation. I had to stop a guy driving mine out to test drive it, fully down and almost at the highish gutter preparing to drag the underpinning off. Never touched any buttons, truley sir
    Jaahn
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    Golfa, Bridgestone Turanza works well on the early C5 V6 and they are not horribly expensive. Observe the load rating requirement. Speed rating is less critical.

    The left front tyre often scrubs out first because people carelessly throw the car through roundabouts and turn right in car park ramps. Cul-de-sac turns to the right scrub out the left front too. A friend's brother always negotiates cul-de-sacs with a left turn to save the left front tyre! Rotation can spread wear, but not everyone likes to do that.

    Good advice from Jaahn. Mostly, you want to start by setting the rack to the middle and going from there. Some allow for a pin to lock it straight ahead. Not doing this is why so many people can screw up something a little unusual like a CX.

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    Am interested to follow and learn from Fritzelhund's Height Sensor issue, maybe a dedicated thread..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golfa View Post
    You guys are amazing, and your knowledge invaluable! I too am in the market for new tyres all round on my 2002 c5 exclusive v6. I have been to Bob Jane at Bondi Junction, and they are suggesting Bridgestones! Any one got any other thoughts please. I want to take "Ella" on a country trip soon, and she needs comfy treads, and safe ones.
    Would you be able to give the tyre size & your priorities among the range of parameters of type performance? These parameters are not all able to be optimised (for instance: wet grip & longevity conflict, as do comfort & crisp handling response).

    cheers! Peter

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    Assuming that the size is 215/55-16 (I just looked the car type up on Jax's site), I think that you have a sensible shortlist of two.

    In suggesting this pair, I am guessing that 'safe' is to be unpacked as: 'good grip under braking & cornering in the wet & benign behaviour at the limit of grip with good recovery upon remedial intervention'. I am also assuming that you are willing to tolerate some loss of handling crispness given your listing of "comfy" as a desirable trait.

    The pair on my list are Continental's PremiumContact2 & Dunlop's FM800. Each is an excellent tyre in the wet with the FM800 being longer lasting than the PC2 but not quite as crisp in response. (Jax lists prices as 179 for the PC2 & 189 for the FM800.) Neither is harsh but nor have they been optimised for comfort & the PC2 in particular is quite taut in response. Because of the diminution of responsiveness, comfort-optimised structures tend to be less safe than tauter, less comfortable, ones (other things being equal).

    The Bridgestones available in the size are two Ecopias & one Turanza.

    The Ecopia range is optimised for fuel efficiency & wet grip suffers from that focus. The Ecopias are the EP100 (which has tested badly in the wet & is definitely to be avoided I suggest) & the new EP300, of which I know nothing except that it's part of the Ecopia range & thus likely to be sub-optimal in the wet.

    The Turanza (comfort & quietness optimised) is the ER300. An old type now & not rubbish in the wet but not better than mediocre. I can't see why one would choose it over the PC2 or FM800. Actually I can think of one reason. Bridgestone still do "4 for the price of 3" deals & they are a decided "good thing" (I've bought 4 sets of RE003 Potenzas for my wife's & daughter's Foresters in 215/60-16 on such deals). If cost is an issue & you can wait until May, it might be worth seeing if the Turanza ER300 is made available on such a deal. Then again, as the unit price is 235, the saving over a PC2 or FM800 wouldn't be huge. Ecopias & Potenzas are on at the moment but I wouldn't get either Ecopia unless you're desperate to save a few percentage points on ongoing fuel consumption & initial purchase price.

    There are other tyres which might be suggestible when I have a clearer idea of what you want in a tyre (my guesses from your brief remarks might be awry).

    Personally, I'd get the PC2 but YMMV (I am indifferent to tyre longevity, for instance)

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 17th March 2018 at 01:20 AM.

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    Just wanted to add my bit on the topic of 4 & 2 wheel alignments, from way back at the beginning of the thread.
    Peter seems to have the tyre side covered and, while I personally don't like Dunlops, I urge you all to listen to his advice as I believe he knows what he's talking about.

    I've decided to comment tonight because I aligned a Peugeot 307 today due to the fact it "failed" the safe-t-stop (one of those platronic roll-over type devices mentioned earlier) due to the rear wheel alignment. Now, as an experienced alignment technician with a bit of a thing for strange french cars, I know there's no rear adjustments, and Peugeots of that era do have about 6mm of toe in at the rear. Designed that way for high speed stability.

    However, we are a Mitsubishi dealership and the service advisor that sold the alignment did not know this. He only knew that the car failed the silly little test. The person who sells you a wheel alignment is usually not the person who performs it, so it doesn't really matter what they know about the underside of your car, as long as the tech is good and you get charged for the correct job. The way I used to get around this when I was selling, rather than performing alignments, was to quote for a 4 wheel job, adding that it may be cheaper depending on what is adjustable.

    I'm not a fan of the roll over test machines. They are great for brake and suspension testing, but their alignment results I would always take with a grain of salt. I have seen some pretty wild discrepancies between what the test says and what the alignment settings actually are.

    One last thing. Someone said on here 7 years ago that the only adjustment is toe (I think he said parallelism) and that it doesn't go out by itself. Um, YES IT BLOODY DOES!!! Quite quickly too if you live in Adelaide! Have your alignment done every time you put a set of tyres on, then every 10 000km or so with a tyre rotation. It will dramatically improve tyre life.

    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leeroy69 View Post
    Now, as an experienced alignment technician with a bit of a thing for strange french cars, I know there's no rear adjustments, and Peugeots of that era do have about 6mm of toe in at the rear. Designed that way for high speed stability.
    Does the C5 have rear adjustment? If not, is there any point in having a front and rear alignment?

    With each alignment, I think(?) a steering angle sensor reset should be done. The Bob Jane agent I visited advised this would cost $110. The Jax agent said they would do it at no charge, provided the car was compatible with their machine.

    C5 wheel alignment and tyre question-angle-sensor.jpg
    Last edited by turnbull151; 16th March 2018 at 10:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turnbull151 View Post
    Does the C5 have rear adjustment? If not, is there any point in having a front and rear alignment?

    With each alignment, I think(?) a steering angle sensor reset should be done. The Bob Jane agent I visited advised this would cost $110. The Jax agent said they would do it at no charge, provided the car was compatible with their machine.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    No rear adjustment on the C5. There is a version that does have rear toe adjustments, but it is a very late model, and I'm afraid I can't tell you which one. I just remember looking up at the one I came across and thinking wow! Same as the Peugeot 508 rear end, which happens to be the only recent model Peugeot with an adjustable rear.

    So in answer to your question, no. Any store that charges you for a 4 wheel alignment is ripping you off. This is where it gets difficult though. Technically, any alignment where a sensor/target is put on all 4 wheels is a 4 wheel alignment. This is the way 99% of alignments are done, and the best way to do it, as the front can be adjusted to compensate for any misalignment of the rear so you still end up with a straight steering wheel. It also means you can see how the rear end is sitting and identify any problems. So really stores are charging for front adjustment, or 4 wheel adjustment, not 4 or 2 wheel alignments.

    As for the sensor, if the steering wheel is currently straight then it doesn't need to be reset. The only time I have reset steering angle sensors on any vehicle after an alignment is when I have dramatically changed the actual angle of the steering wheel, otherwise you're just resetting it to the position it was in previously anyway, and what's the point of that?

    Hope that helps mate.

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  23. #23
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    The C5 2001 to 2008 has trailing arms without adjustment, but the multi-link rear end used in the 407 and X7 C5 does have adjustment. So does the C6 as it uses the same suspension layout. The C6 in particular seems quite sensitive to wheel alignment changes as bushes settle and a proper 4 wheel alignment can be of real benefit if the car feels a bit unstable at higher speeds.

    Most of the alignment problems, particularly at the front, will be down to soggy/torn suspension bushes. The 407/X7/C6 front ends are prone to the upright bottom eye bush becoming soggy and the rear lower control arm bush tearing. However, you might recall reading about one member here who lived with poor C5 X7 road manners for what seemed like a few years, suspecting problems with the Hydractive system and eventually finding a bent lower control arm. Tired wishbone bushes on the front control arms will also cause the early C5 to 2008 to wander badly at even modest speeds. I remember driving one 2005 wagon that was so bad it wandered all over even when pulling away from traffic lights. If they are worn or soggy, replace them and enjoy the improved driving experience.
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    Hi Guys,

    My advice to anyone using a two poster hoist with a C5 is to loosen the the cap on the hyd tank first.

    Regardless of what you have it on the hoist for, you often don't want the suspension in high, and if you realise the pressure via the rigidity sphere, you can still have a lot of oil in the system, because the wheels are hanging.

    If you put the the car back onto the ground and the cap is tight, there may be more oil trying to get back into the tank than the tank can cope with.

    Two things can happen, either the tank explodes, or it blows off the pipe that takes LDS down to the power steering. It's an easy precaution to take, and stops a huge mess to clean up.

    Best regards,

    Greg
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    Thanks Allan, I have just ordered the B/stone "super-cats" and am having them fitted today. So looking forward to taking "ELLA" on a country jaunt. I took the "buy 3 for 4 offer also". $411 for the lot seems v/good value. Ecopia look the goods, was a toss up. Will see how the alignment is before I get them to do anything, I don't suspect any issues, but the old tyres have been on this car a long time I suspect, as the treads are OK, but the walls are cracked badly. Will report back soon.
    Paul.

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