Got my "new" EFI ECU
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Default Got my "new" EFI ECU



    I dunno, looks like cit karma or something has got me...

    Today, very happy I went to pick up my parcel with my ECU from Holland. Fitted it to my car and absolutely nothing changed, no pump cycling when you switch on the ignition and no injector ticking when you turn the throttle spindle, so basically I am where I started 4 weeks ago when I initially switched on the car. ECU has power because after about 2 minutes you can feel the "fins" or heat dissipator getting warm, it starts to get warm in the center and slowly work it's way out.

    I believe Geert from Citroworld when he said he tested the unit and it was working but I don't know if it got damaged when it was in transport, it was unfortunately not packed in some kind of protection just a few bundles of newspaper. so I am at a loss now... I rechecked all the wires with the manual but nothing.

    I now strongly think I should just strip the car and sell for spares or something the car just doesn't want to work. Checked the earth to the body, all well. Injectors open and close perfectly when you turn the dizzy by hand or by operating the starter. Nothing else seems to do what it is supposed to. Put live on the fuel pump directly from the battery, it worked like it should.

    I will try troubleshooting again tomorrow but I doubt it will change.

    I should maby rip out the EFI system and put a carby on as I don't have enough to start with megasquirt. Sigh I really wanted the EFI to work.....

    Haven't tried hotwiring the oump and try to start the car like that, will maby try tomorrow


    Any hope guys?

    Oh I traced the "old" ECU's Bosch part number, it was designed for the 1972 Mercedes W123 280 6cyl


    Cheers
    Corne

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  2. #2
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    The early computers are virtually bullet proof,years ago mine filled with water,dried it out in sun and worked perfectly since. May i suggest your problem is more likely the relay or relays on battry carrier,cheap so replace them all and check if a wire is off on one of them,regards, Andy.

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Andy

    I suspect the relays too although I replaced all 3 with Hella units. Will find out if I can source the correct Bosch units. If the ECU has got power andall the wires are intact to the different components then it should just work.

    The wires were checked a while back but I will recheck them. I'm too frd up with the car right now haha. BLOODY CITROENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    One thing that my parents love about Cits.... They taught me to be patient!!! Ususally I'm the exact opposite


    PS Does someone here maby have the special Citroen/Bosch component/ECU tester that they are willing to maby get rid of? I think it maby a huge help...

    Cheers
    Corne
    Last edited by CorneSoutAfrica; 17th April 2011 at 07:43 AM. Reason: Added stuff
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
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  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Techbuy's Avatar
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    I know it's something you have already done, but its worth checking the continuity of all the wiring from the motor/sensors back to the ECU.
    it's a pain, but sometimes the connectors don't always make good contact it was one of the main problems we had serving photocopiers back in the 70's.
    If you can get something like "Electorlube" its a contact cleaner and open all the connectors, give them a spray even where they plug onto the sensors and ECU.

    two ECU giving them same result points towards wiring/relays.

    Take your time and step through one circuit at a time. Hope we can all help to get you running with the EFI.

    I have some Citroen DS doc's on these earlier ECU's that might help.
    They are too big to attach so will try to PM them to you.

    Cheers

    Colin
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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Colin, thanks

    All help I appreciate alot!! It's a new day with new hope When the car is going I owe just about all the aussiefroggers something!!

    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Something quite weird happened when I just got to the car before Sunday Lunch... I switched on the car and the pump started to run but only switched off after I turned the engine.... back off and on the nothing..

    I took a chance and used the old relay, the orinigal ones.. I noticed the amp rating on the new ones are 30 Amp and the orinigal ones 15Amp?. Switched the car on and everytime the pump will switch on when you turn on the car but won't switch off after a few seconds, it stays on even when you operate the starter, I wonder if it stays on because there is just about no fuel in the fuel line or fuel tank and maby the increased fuelpump power consumption causes it to switch off when it's full of fuel and reaching the 2 bar mark? don't know maby far fetched..

    I am going to change all 3 relays with lower amp relays and see what happens, maby the higher amp relays need too much power before it's triggered?

    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
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  7. #7
    DS
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    There is a section in the factory manuals where it tells you how to test all the terminals on the ECU with it out of the car on a bench. You can also test all the injection components through the main plug too. All the connections are numbered. All you need (from memory) is a multi meter. Why no find that section and do the tests?
    Last edited by DS; 17th April 2011 at 10:17 PM.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneSoutAfrica View Post
    Something quite weird happened when I just got to the car before Sunday Lunch... I switched on the car and the pump started to run but only switched off after I turned the engine.... back off and on the nothing..

    I took a chance and used the old relay, the orinigal ones.. I noticed the amp rating on the new ones are 30 Amp and the orinigal ones 15Amp?. Switched the car on and everytime the pump will switch on when you turn on the car but won't switch off after a few seconds, it stays on even when you operate the starter, I wonder if it stays on because there is just about no fuel in the fuel line or fuel tank and maby the increased fuelpump power consumption causes it to switch off when it's full of fuel and reaching the 2 bar mark? don't know maby far fetched..

    I am going to change all 3 relays with lower amp relays and see what happens, maby the higher amp relays need too much power before it's triggered?

    Cheers
    Corne
    With the greatest respect, random acts of replacement probably won't fix the problem.

    As said earlier get friendly with a multimeter and the manual and go step by step, wire by wire, connection by connection through the whole injection system.

    It's the slowest and most frustrating method. But guarantees a repair.

    My feeling is that there is wiring fault which have re-instated when have been doing repairs.

    Unplug the ECU and start metering out every sensor and every relay coil.

    The ECU are very sturdy, Provided you have the correct ECU for the car then I wouldn't start by blaming the ECU.

  9. #9
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    You did say that hotwiring the pump makes it run DEFINITELY RELAY problem not ECU. Suggest you disconnect hose to cold start valve,place end in bottle,turn on ignition and see if you have petrol; if pump running and no petrol fill tank, Andy.

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Rob

    haha

    Im a very bad student. I rechecked all the wiring from the ECU plug connected to the ECU to each component, but I only checked the continuity, I got just about zero resistance on all the wires to each components.

    Next I checked the 3 relays they were ok BUT they differed in Ampere ratings. Although the boxes they came in was 12 V the amp AND volts differed. Fuel relay was a 20/30Amp 12V relay, main relay was 30/40Amp 12V relay and the impulse relay was a 10/20Amp 24V relay The markings on the relays were so small and bad (although they are Hella units), that me and my dad missed it, trusting the markings on the box. Used the fuel pump 12 V relay in place of the 24V relay

    And I just took the only working orinigal 10Amp 12V relay I had left of the car and used it as the fuel pump relay, switched the car on and the fuel pump started to pump but didn't stop, only after I switched the ignition off it stopped.

    I don't have 10Amp relays, does higher amp relays maby do something wrong? Unlikely

    Rob I did check all the wiring from the ECU plug to all the injectors, central earth, throttle position sensor, to relay plugs, cold start injector, to and from coil, and the plug to the distributor, all of them had just about no resistance..

    I don't know how to physically check the throttle position sensor, so I am not sure it's working but looking at the small printed circuit it looks fine

    I checked all I could or what I think is wrong

    Tomorrow I'll put power on the wires and see if there is any volt drop...

    Corne
    Last edited by CorneSoutAfrica; 18th April 2011 at 07:02 AM.
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
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  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Provided you have the correct ECU for the car then I wouldn't start by blaming the ECU.
    Rob at least this time round it is the correct ECU. The ECU in the car was a Mercedes 280 unit.

    At least the pump is switching on when the ignition is switched on now


    I owe you guys alot!

    Thank you!
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
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  12. #12
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    Corne,
    The amperage on the relays 10A/20A/30A is the amount of current it can handle (amps it will switch) and wont make any difference in the operation of your fuel pump.

    It is important they are all 12volt as a 24volt relay on a 12 volt system will not make contact or "stutter" mostly they just wont energise and make contact.

    Keep going, slowly getting there...
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1975 DS23 IE Pallas Auto
    1972 D Special 4Sp
    1/2 a DS23 Auto
    www.ds23.com.au
    Had a 1974 D Special 4Sp (by now reborn as a Toaster)

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Hi everyone

    I had a look on the internet and I came across this on Tony Jackson's website
    http://www.agua.nu/ds-files/tony-jac...leshooting.pdf

    It describes each component and what volts should be at what ECU terminal aswell as resistance, and tells you when, where volts should be a what terminal.

    I'll giv it a go and see what happens

    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

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  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    You should probably have a look around this site too:

    http://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/

    Next step I would take is pulling the cover from the computer and check the wiring from inside the computer (this way your checking the connection between the computer and it's plug as well).

    I think you will still have a wiring problem sadly

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  15. #15
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    There are two separate systems in the ECU. One manages the pump and the other the injectors. Starting with the pump, there is a power transistor that turns on and off the pump. It makes the decision based on a pressure sensor on the injector feed pipe. If that sensor is faulty you have no chance of succesful pressure management. Confirm with an ohmmeter and a pressure gauge that it is operational. If not change it. If it is and the pump performance is still intermittent, then you have a wiring or ECU problem.
    The other side of the system is engine model dependent. It times the injection and the volume supplied. The Mercedes and Volvo units look the same externally but have different parameters set up inside and are not interchangable if you want the engine to do any more than idle.
    When you have consistent fuel pressure, I can help you stage by stage to get the injectors operating.
    Here I have a copy of the Bosch test unit, which is not a lot of use at this distance but if you are likely to see a few DS EFI it is worth the effort to make one.
    Have fun!
    Think Global - Ride on Spheres

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Shane, thanks for the link

    I hope it's just a simple wiring problem, But how could they hide themselves so bloody good for so long? It's not like I haven't tested each wire.

    The troubleshhoting list at least tell you what volts should there be at the ecu's terminals. Hopefully it is a faulty wire. The idea of a (maby) damaged ECU is out of my mind for now. I'll give power to the ECU and check from there. They have a nice section telling you what to check if your pump doesn't operate like it should. One wire caught my attention, the earth...

    Besides that, one wire in particular worries me as to which terminal/position of the rterminal it should go to. I include a picture of the schematic. The manual says to negative operation of the starter at battery terminal. Another manual (non Citroen) says it should go to the ignition switch. So where should it go? Directly to the negative pole on the battery or ditectly to the positive or to the starter relay where it excites the starter or where?

    http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/...Ischematic.jpg


    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
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  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    There are two separate systems in the ECU. One manages the pump and the other the injectors. Starting with the pump, there is a power transistor that turns on and off the pump. It makes the decision based on a pressure sensor on the injector feed pipe. If that sensor is faulty you have no chance of succesful pressure management. Confirm with an ohmmeter and a pressure gauge that it is operational. If not change it. If it is and the pump performance is still intermittent, then you have a wiring or ECU problem.
    The other side of the system is engine model dependent. It times the injection and the volume supplied. The Mercedes and Volvo units look the same externally but have different parameters set up inside and are not interchangable if you want the engine to do any more than idle.
    When you have consistent fuel pressure, I can help you stage by stage to get the injectors operating.
    Here I have a copy of the Bosch test unit, which is not a lot of use at this distance but if you are likely to see a few DS EFI it is worth the effort to make one.
    Have fun!
    Gerry

    The pressure sensor on the fuel line, where would that be? The car had a mercedes ECU but now the Citroen unit 0280 000 011

    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    The lead marked 25 goes to the negative terminal. Lead 18 'Connected to battery +ve by starter operation'. This ensures the fuel pump is running when the motor is cranked over. Then when the engine fires (over 200rpm) the ECU registers this and keeps the pump running. This protects against cylinder flooding from a faulty injector.

    The fact that your pump runs all the time worries me. It should not run when you turn on the ignition.

    Greg
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    More info from the Bosch Injection Manual. Engine will not start If pump does not run it suggests

    1. Cables to pump or pump relay cables on fuel pump relay defective, Check on fuel pump for good connections.
    2. No voltage at terminal 86 of pump relay because main relay not operating or cable defective.
    3. Voltage present at terminal 86 but no ground connection at terminal 85
    4. Open circuit in cable from pump relay terminal 87 to +ve connection on pump.

    Engine will not start, pump runs

    1. Connection from wiring harness (cable 18) to starter motor terminal 50 defective.
    2. Pressure sensor cable not connected or open circuit
    3. Open circuit in cable connection at temp sensor 2 (coolant)
    4. Np pressure build up in ring main - pipe pinched or regulator defective

    The other area I would check is the thermo time switch wiring and associated relay. If this is not set up properly the engine could be hard to start.

    Greg
    Mine

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    Toyota Prius

    In the family

    Xantia SX

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    I raised more questions than answers.

    I'll start with the relays..

    i told you about the impulse relay that was 24 V I changed that with a 12V unit from the fuel pump relay and used the orinigal 10 amp relay in the position for the fuel pump relay. I then switched on the car and the fuel pump immediately went on and didn't stop.

    Ok today I bought 3 identical bosch 30 amp relays and put them in place, switched the car on and the fuel pump went on and didn't stop, I briefly operated the starter and the pump went off, switched off the car and back on, this time the pump was dead. I switched off and went for a cool down, after 10 minutes I came back and switched the car on, briefly operated the starter and again it went off.

    What could cause that?

    Next. hooked on the fuel tank with petrol in, switched on and the pump started, my dad looked inside the intake manifold and he heard fuel pouring in... I took out all 4 injectors out of their position and switched back on, all 4 sprayed without stopping

    Ok maby the wires leading to the ECU aspecially the earth could be faulty? Checked terminal 9 on the ECU (earthwire) back to the car's body (main earth of injection system) Earth all good.

    While I was there I checked the pressure sensor, had the correct amount of ohms across the terminals and infinite resistance between earth and the other three terminals.

    I checked power between terminal 16 and 11 on the ECU harnass plug and got 11.9 volts(ignition switch on) And also between terminal 11 and 24 also had power with ignition on.

    Still what worries me is where the wire on the impulse relay that should go to the negative operation of the starter at battery terminal, where it this position? I don't have a clue, maby that's where the problem is?

    I noticed the ECU got pretty hot during the testing, I don't think it should get this hot though or do they?

    And what it terminal 50? The battery positive terminal?

    Thanks
    Corne
    Last edited by CorneSoutAfrica; 19th April 2011 at 03:54 AM. Reason: Added
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    You have a serious problem with the ECU if the injectors are all injecting continuously. They each have a solenoid internally which is driven by a transistor switch inside the unit. These are pulsed in sequence with a pulse width that manages the engine fuel demand. If any are on all the time then their transistors are blown or the battery is connected in reverse to the unit. If the latter, then it is too late - it will probably have blown all four transistors and the power transistor for the pump relay. That would explain why it is overheating.
    Relay 21 is a reversing polarity relay that keeps the pump going when the starter is actuated and its wiring is critical.

    Disconnect the plug from the ECU and measure at the plug the voltage between
    cables 32 and then 35 (wires black and lilac) and the body of the ecu. - note the black goes normally to battery + and the ground is yellow (pin 11), with the ignition on They must show that they are both positive. If reversed the ECU has been blown.
    Then remove an injector plug and measure the resistance between a pin on the ecu side and those 32 and 35 pins on the ecu socket and also to ground.
    Reverse the meter test cables and repeat the measurements. You should find that one end of the the injector plug is connected to +12 and the other has an open circuit or about 700 ohms to ground depending on the polarity of the meter. If it is connected to ground then the drive transistor is dead and presumably all the others.

    gerry

    Note, I have all the test information and the external wiring in front of me in the manual but for the circuitry inside the ECU I am relying on my memory.
    Think Global - Ride on Spheres

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Ok Gerry

    Wait I'm not with you. Cable number 35 according to my scematics leads from the main relay to the coil, now there is about .9 volts to the car body, I should unplug the ECU OK I did, but how would I be able to check voltage if it's not connected. Sorry for my stupidity but please set me straight.

    Cable 32 gives me 12.31 volts.

    I thought the potential reversing relay must be connected correctly that's why I ask where is the negative operation of the starter at battery terminal wire 30 is connected nowhere at the moment
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Gerry

    You gave me a fright with the previous post

    Although the injectors are stuck open I rechecked the triggerpoints, when I just turn the dizzy the operation is very intemittent, took the trigger points out and pushed them open by hand and now nothing I then carefully opened the contacts by pressing the little points shut and lifting them with my nail, then they clicked, I think my trigger points are worn out thus keeping my injectors open for long periods of time... Does this sound plausible?

    I can't find points in South Africa, closest to getting points here is Mercedes that also used precisely the same number, they can get me a set for 2000 Aus dollar a unit!

    The fuel pump still starts and keeps pumping but when you operate the starter it stops.

    I opened the control unit and I can't see any burnt components nor that smell of burnt components, still smell like the old 386 computer in the shed...

    Cheers
    Corne

    P.s Out of curiosity I contacted BS- autotune, they have a fully functional almost plug and play system will hear what it costs later


    Uhm nah forgrt that 2000 euros far too expensive!!!! Sjeesh!!


    Cheers
    Corne
    Last edited by CorneSoutAfrica; 19th April 2011 at 09:10 AM. Reason: added stuff
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneSoutAfrica View Post

    Although the injectors are stuck open I rechecked the triggerpoints, when I just turn the dizzy the operation is very intemittent, took the trigger points out and pushed them open by hand and now nothing I then carefully opened the contacts by pressing the little points shut and lifting them with my nail, then they clicked, I think my trigger points are worn out thus keeping my injectors open for long periods of time... Does this sound plausible?
    Hi Corne- those trigger points probably just need a clean- only a very low current runs through them in operation so they don't wear out like ignition points do. If one side of the points are dirty and not making contact, then the injectors won't fire. The ECU needs to see the trigger signal from one side then the other to reset the internal circuitry to make each set of injectors fire in turn.

    Cheers,
    Ben.

  25. #25
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Forget about the fuel pump for now. So long as it's running that is all that matters in order to get the car running. It needs to continue running when you crank the motor though. I'd hot wire it to always runs for now. Once the car is running nicely, then worry about the fuel pump.

    Remove power from everything and power *just* the fuel pump and let us know if the injectors are still spraying. It's possible you have one (or many) injectors leaking vast quantities of fuel into the motor!

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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