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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Default DS Engine Mounts

    I wonder is someone could give me a step by step guide to changing the engine mounts of a "73 DS23? I am sure I saw a thread on AF on this but maybe it was lost in the crash.

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    I understand the method of reconditioning the mounts themselves but am interested in what tools and equipment I might need to get them swapped over. Forewarned is forearmed.

    Are the gearbox mounts also likely to need replacement if the engine mounts are shot or are they generally more durable?

    Thanks.
    Michael
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    The factory workshop manual downloads for #518 for a blow by blow. ( silly old fool richo is wrong, hopefully he's corrected himeself )
    A trolley jack and a large block of timber uner the sump has always proved a welcome friend.
    Right side is a task and test of dexterity as well as patience.

    Gearbox mount condition can vary. Some are good, others can be like marshmallows. I've experienced both. My preference has been to change both.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by richo; 14th April 2011 at 12:45 PM. Reason: #814 and #518 suggestion incorrect.

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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Thanks Richo, I will keep looking.

    Maybe I am blind but I thought I had searched both of those manuals fairly carefully without luck.
    Michael
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    Michael, my apologies, the brain is fading.
    The procedure is in an earlier manual, but doesn't really go beyond loosening a couple of obvious things, like the throttle mount shaft and speedo cable, then slinging around the water pump lift point and hold the weight from above, loosen or remove the trans support arm bolts, remove the heat shields and then you can actually get to the 14mm headed set screws.
    Remove them, then the fun part of removing the top securing nut. The hex sizes differ in my experience.
    My preference is to remove the engine pipe to make life easier and allow a higher lift. You can also remove the exhaust manifolds if you wish to spend the time. There's no real short cuts thatI can pass on, I've not learnt or known of any.
    Once you have renewed the bushings, set the pre height and replace.

    It's one of those jobs on a D where if you are changing engine mounts, why not replace the starter motor with a Valeo, change out or at least check the two wires from the starter to battery and their insulation. renew all the gaskets, replace any dodgy studs, buy the correct exhaust flange nuts and exhaust manifold nuts, renew the aircleaner mounting grommets, make sure the big flat washers are in place on top of the heat shields, adjust your valve clearances, have a water pump on hand after you have replaced the engine mounts, etc.
    Then you have bowled over the jobs whichare likely to give you grief over the ensuing time.
    Of course, if you aren't able ot afford all this stuff, then, at least renew the exhaust flange to manifold gaskets and replace the ( probably ) non genuine nuts with the correct type. You'll thank yourself.

    The higher you are able to lift the rear the easier the job, don't force anything. Hope this helps.
    Last edited by richo; 14th April 2011 at 12:46 PM.

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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Thanks Richo, Maybe this brain fade thing is spreading because I seem to be showing similar symptoms.

    Thanks for the tips. It is sounding like fun so no need to delay. I guess a hoist and an engine crane would be useful but I will attempt it with a trolley jack at home.

    I seem to recall many months ago, in a late night trawl of Aussie Frogs looking for DS info, I saw a posting about this procedure. Not only had someone listed the extension bars and flexi joints required but if I recall correctly suggested unbolting the bracket from the engine block rather than undoing the big hex on top of the mount.
    Michael
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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelr View Post
    Thanks Richo, Maybe this brain fade thing is spreading because I seem to be showing similar symptoms.

    Thanks for the tips. It is sounding like fun so no need to delay. I guess a hoist and an engine crane would be useful but I will attempt it with a trolley jack at home.

    I seem to recall many months ago, in a late night trawl of Aussie Frogs looking for DS info, I saw a posting about this procedure. Not only had someone listed the extension bars and flexi joints required but if I recall correctly suggested unbolting the bracket from the engine block rather than undoing the big hex on top of the mount.
    Michael, I won't be much help, I've done the Exhaust side but that was when I replaced my starter with the Valeo, so, manifolds were off. If you go down this path be prepared for new gaskets and maybe a few studs and nuts.

    I think the removal of the mount bracket may only be possible on the inlet side... ?

    Cheers
    Chris
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    Yes it was me who posted all the info and it was lost but perhaps has been rescued somewhere?

    And of course I am in NZ and the pics are at home.
    Craig K
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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Ah great!! I should have guessed it was you. You have done earlier all the jobs facing me now !

    I don't have the rubber parts yet but I do need to get this done over the next few weeks. Any further advice and tips welcome.
    Michael
    Member, Citroen Car Club NSW

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    Michael, I won't be much help, I've done the Exhaust side but that was when I replaced my starter with the Valeo, so, manifolds were off. If you go down this path be prepared for new gaskets and maybe a few studs and nuts.

    I think the removal of the mount bracket may only be possible on the inlet side... ?

    Cheers
    Chris
    Thanks Chris, every bit helps. A lot of collective wisdom on this site.
    Michael
    Member, Citroen Car Club NSW

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    Hi Michael.
    I have a far reach portable engine hoist if you wish to borrow it. I believe we are both in the same area - northern beaches.
    You'll need a trailer or ute or van.
    regards, ss2115
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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    That is a very kind offer! I have sent a PM
    Michael
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    I always remove the brackets from the engine block rather than trying to wrestle the big but off the top in situ.

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    Correct. Because once you have maybe loosened the nut you then have to remove it underneath the arm/bracket.

    Remove the arm/bracket with the engine well supported.
    Craig K
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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    I always remove the brackets from the engine block rather than trying to wrestle the big but off the top in situ.
    As you might gather I have been putting off this job for a while. I could claim work commitments or weather excuses but really it is just that I have heard too many scare stories

    It seems that getting the big nut off the top of the mount is a juggle without the right tools so maybe the bracket removal is the way to go. I take it that is possible on both sides?

    Alternatively can anyone suggest where I can find a 26mm Crowsfoot spanner in Sydney for the top nut? The are like rocking horse poo it seems.
    Michael
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    Trust us please. Support the engine, take the bracket off the engine, attach rebuilt engine mount, reattach bracket to engine.

    I think you would find that you have to lift the engine so high to get the bolt out from under the mount that it is a huge job.
    Craig K
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    skp
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    Default DS rear mounts

    ACTUALLY, folks...

    Yes, the job is a bit messy, but not as bad as you have been directed.... I have never bothered with the front mount - they never seem to degrade like the rear ones.
    Do not think about removing the exhaust - this usually involves removing the head (!) or extracting all the exhaust studs from the head as there is not enough clearance ... and then there is the bottom end! The early ID-19 exhaust was SO much nicer!

    The MOST important tool is a couple of crow'sfoot spanners. One 14mm and another of 26mm.

    The actual replacement of the rubbers is not difficult. Dependent on your facilities, you may need to raise and lower the front end a few times.

    Steps:

    1. Raise the car on stands and uncouple the exhaust flexible at the front end ( at least )

    2. Remove the air cleaner, exhaust cover.

    3. Remove the RH suspension sphere.

    4. Dis-engage the steering column from the rack and withdraw it up, out of the way, making sure you don't loose the pre-tensioning tube clamps. Don't take it too far, just to clear the engine bay. Taking it too far up may result in complications with the upper bearing bush, spring etc.

    This should make the RH mount accessible. The LH is a doddle.

    5. Remove the 26mm locknuts at the top of the mount. (crowsfoot and a few extensions )

    6. Remove 14mm bolts holding the mounts ( the other crowsfoot and extensions )

    7. Lift the rear of the engine (block of soft wood on trolley jack will do ) to free the mounts. (Shouldn't need to remove / loosen anything else... but maybe throttle linkage)

    8. Mark the position of the lower locknut on the mount shaft. Drill the spot welds to open up the mounting, fit the new rubbers ( bit of rubber grease is good ), compress the parts in a vice and pop rivet it back together. Replace the lower locknut to it's position.

    9. Raise the engine a bit further... (the old mounts had collapsed!!) and fit the new mounts. Fit the mounts into the block brackets and loosely fit the upper locknuts.

    10. Lower the engine until the mounts are just touching the pads, and fit the 14mm retaining bolts. Check that they are all in place, lower the engine, then tighten all mounting bolts and nuts.

    11. Re-fit the steering column, spheres etc. and lastly, the exhaust.

    The 26mm crowsfoot spanner may be difficult to source locally. I can lend you the two I made up ($$!!), if needed.

    Stuart Pekin
    Perth

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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Thanks Stuart, it all went exactly as you instructed.

    I found that the mounts had been replaced before and the housings welded together but it was easy to grind off the welds, replace rubbers and then close them again using the Mig welder.

    A hydraulic bottle jack and a block of timber was fine for raising the back of the motor. Point one (below) "uncouple the exhaust flexible" sort of glosses over the fact that the engine pipe and the flexi had grown used to each others company.

    I found it necessary to remove the lump of cast iron bolted to the firewall on the passenger side (vibration damper?) to get the mount out and I wish I could have located a 5 year old with skinny arms to reach in on the exhaust side, but apart from that all plain sailing.
    Michael
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  18. #18
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    Default DS Engine Mounts

    Well for once I had a really easy and happy experience with a big job! I have had the guards, bonnet and radiator off my 62 ID to fit the reconditioned set of "clockwork" brakes. I have had a hold up with the radiator - now sent out for recoring and complete reconditioning - so having a set of engine mounts "on the shelf" - the last set rebuilt by Richo and bought from him a couple of years ago - I decided to have a crack at replacing mine.

    It must be significantly easier on the early (front exhaust) model because it was a simple 3 hour job all up with for once no complications. One comment is that you do not need to touch or remove the steering column on these early cars, it is enough to disconnect the front exhaust pipe and take the exhaust manifold off and then there is plenty of room to remove the mounts. In fact there is more room and it is easier on the RHS than it is on the inlet side where the elbow room for tools is quite restricted by the fuel pump and distributor.

    I did take the mounting brackets off the block still attached to the engine mounts (on both sides) but I would recommend trying to loosen the large (26 mm) top nut with a socket and extension while the units are still on the car because it is easier while everything is solid on the car to break the sticking nut. I did this on one side, not the other, so had to resort to using a vice on the one done off the car.

    The mounts that came off measured 8 to 10 mm less in height and were much spongier than the new ones going on which are preset in height to 98 mm from base to the top edge of the lower (height setting) nut on the thread. So I fully expect to regain a lot of height on the motor, which is needed because the radiator fan was fouling badly on the bottom of the aluminium radiator shroud.

    I was suprised to find all the exhaust manifold studs in good order and the bolts came off readily. I do have new brass ones to put back on and will use copper based antiseize grease on refitting. The exhaust shield is lined with flaky white asbestos which is riveted onto the shield, replacing that with modern heat shield material will be a job for another day. Does anywhere sell big fat blind (alloy?) rivets that can be hammered into place in the same way as the originals? I haven't seen anything in the general shops.

    I did have to use a big metal bar as a "persuader" to manouvre the rear of the block back into line when bolting up the mounts as it had swung away to the drivers side while free of the mounts. I just levered the engine towards me while I was on the passenger side gently releasing the engine crane with one hand to get the mounts sitting "just so" and as straight as I could manage on both sides - having bolted them back onto the block first while the engine was a inch or so above final position. The weight of the motor held them in place while I bolted them down to the brackets on the side of the chassis frame.

    Job done! Hooray. Once again my thanks to Richo for the reconditioned mounts and his guidance at the time on how to fit them.

    regards Leconte





    Last edited by Leconte; 17th July 2016 at 12:06 AM.
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    Is there any great need to weld together the two parts of the engine mount? Surely once in place the bolts hold the two halves together?
    I've just superglued the base to the bottom rubber. Can anyone see any pitfalls to this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by badabec View Post
    Is there any great need to weld together the two parts of the engine mount? Surely once in place the bolts hold the two halves together?
    I've just superglued the base to the bottom rubber. Can anyone see any pitfalls to this?
    IIRC when I did mine years ago I held them together with a couple of rivets then bashed the rivets flat with a hammer and drift. I worked on the same theory as you that the bolts going through them hold them together.
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    skp
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    Actually, the bolts do NOT hold the upper and lower rubbers together inside the casing. They DO need to be riveted / welded together.

    SKP

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    Quote Originally Posted by skp View Post
    Actually, the bolts do NOT hold the upper and lower rubbers together inside the casing. They DO need to be riveted / welded together.

    SKP
    Hello, sorry, I still don't understand why. My little grey cells are getting tired

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    I think SKP may be confusing a DS mount with an SM mount. On an SM mount the mounting bolts do not go through the tabs that hold the upper half to the lower half, so you definitely need to rivet/weld them back together. On a DS mount the mounting bolts do go through the tabs and therefore will help hold the two halves together. I can't say, however, if the bolts will do the job by themselves.
    Cheers,
    John T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by citroenthusiast View Post
    I think SKP may be confusing a DS mount with an SM mount. On an SM mount the mounting bolts do not go through the tabs that hold the upper half to the lower half, so you definitely need to rivet/weld them back together. On a DS mount the mounting bolts do go through the tabs and therefore will help hold the two halves together. I can't say, however, if the bolts will do the job by themselves.
    Last time I looked at my lightly riveted and bolted through mounts they were still perfect.
    Craig K
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    It seems that there are variations in the engine mounts. The one I took off the D Super 5 this morning has the bottom of the threaded bolt passing through the rubbers with a metal plate on that end. The shaft is punched to retain it to the round plate. Do you drill the splayed metal from the punch out. Fit the shaft and then weld the shaft to the plate?
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