Getting a CX driving .... like it should
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Thread: Getting a CX driving .... like it should

  1. #1
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Default Getting a CX driving .... like it should

    Hi Guys,

    My aim here is to try and get the CX to drive as well as the old safari wagon... To put this into perspective, I've never driven a CX that drives as well as it. It's centering is always aggrivessive, regardless of weather you move it 1mm from center .... or 1turn. It always tracks arrow straight regardless of the outside road conditions. For the first time ever I'm going to approach this task in a methodical manner. I've never setup a car from "scratch" before, rather just fixed/adjusted whatever was wrong.

    Here's my plan:

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    --make the lower arm bush tools
    --make the rollbar droplink puller and driveshaft puller tools if anyone out in internet world can supply the dimensions for them (these you can do without, however it's a PITA. the rollbar droplinks can be extracted with a 'T' splitter... at great risk to the boots). The driveshaft, if the snap ring won't pry out, split the driveshaft in place (sigh... guess what I always have to do.... I HATE re-tieing the ligarex in place).

    If I manage to make any of these tools, I'll make two sets ..... so I have a set I can lend out to anyone that needs them.

    Checks:
    --Rear arm bearings (should be good... all done in the last 30,000miles)
    --ball joints/bearings/tie rod joints/lower arm bushes in the car nose
    --whip out heater inlet trump and recycle ducting and carefully check steering rack mounting frame from above and below.

    To be done:
    --remove both front lower arms. Replace bushes if required, re-fit and setup (hopefully using a tool to set the caster).
    --press out top ball joints if required and replace
    --with heater ducting removed, disconnect daravi controller from rack. Center the controller, center the rack, center the adjustment cam and bolt back together.
    --repalce the top engine mount and fit clutch master cylinder while the heater box bits are out of the way.
    --Remove and brace steering rack subframe if any signs of fatique cracks are evident
    --run hydraulic lines for clutch while everything is apart for easy access.
    --replace any split driveshaft boots (where can you get quality items these days that last more than a few years and very low milage ??? ).
    --with the caster set and lower arms back in, re-assemble and set the toe-in to 2mm
    --replace handbrake cables and hammer sh!t out of handbrake mechanism so it doesn't rattle like buggery on dirt roads/motorkhanas leaving SWMBO and onlookers wandering what's falling off my car
    --setup clutch slave and road-test.

    Is there anything here i'm missing. I know you need to center the rack, controller, setup caster, setup toe in, check steering subframe for fatique cracks. Is there anything else that'll cause these cars to "wander" as they age if the front end is tight with no wear evident

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    Recondition Diravi maybe...

    The reconditioned unit I have in the C-matic gives much sharper centering than the previous worn out one. The difference to what I have in the Prestige is huge.
    Also the reconditioned one I have is originally from '76 CX2200 Pallas - I don't know if the Diravi controller was different from the later ones?
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Interesting point. The one in the car isn't too bad at all. However it has done nearly 160,000miles ..... hmmmm.... I do have a low milage CX2200 controller here ( less than 80,000kms from new on it from a wreck we had once). I wonder if it would fit in the later Series II car.

    Do you know a way of testing the controllers outside of the car ?

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    I reckon easiest way to test is on the car, when you have the heater tower and lower dash off it is not that difficult to swap over. I had to do that few times when I tried to find a one that works - I ended up finding out that all 3 I had in the shed were bad. Getting a good one required driving 200km to Lismore to pull it out from a wreck.
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    You know .... I might just try both and see what the difference. Maybe the really early '76 cars drove better 'cos the controller had more aggresive centering cams in them .... hmmmmmm......

    Of course there is no guarantee the one here is any good after sitting for so many years.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    JBN
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    When comparing a CX sedan to either a wagon or prestige, I believe the latter both have a longer wheelbase than the sedan, so there would always be some difference. The longer the wheelbase, the better the straight line performance at the cost of ability to turn sharp corners.

    As to a CX wandering, the worst I had was when the tie rod ends were worn. At times the car had a mind of its own and a tendency to change lanes automatically. Once replaced things were great.

    For precise pointing of the car, the lower arm bushes play a very big role. I proved that to myself when I replaced the dimply nylon between the inner and outer bush with a bronze bush. Incredibly precise steering but a mechanical feel on bumps. The original design was the best. I also believe that the lower balljoints and bushes are a designed weak point to take all the wear away from the upper arms. The upper arms are precision tapered bearings and pressed ball joints, both designed to last forever. The lower arm is designed for easier overhaul and needs it when the steering loses its precision. Remember, this was the last car designed by Citroen engineers who never listened to the company accountants.

    John

  7. #7
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Now this is interesting. I was asking on the CX list had anyone tried beefing up the lower arm bushes. How exactly did you go about it?? I don't mind slightly more noise (after all this is why a DS is so thumpy on small bumps.... no rubber at all in it's front end).

    Top arms are much easier than the lowers. Same bearings as the rear arms. You just fit a new set of bearings @ about $25bucks a pop and it's done.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    I don't think there will be any difference in the Diravi controllers, just wear in the balls that control the slide valve. Look forward to a huge thread with plenty of pictures to make as feel inadequate

    Greg
    Mine

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    In the family

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  9. #9
    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Now this is interesting. I was asking on the CX list had anyone tried beefing up the lower arm bushes. How exactly did you go about it?? I don't mind slightly more noise (after all this is why a DS is so thumpy on small bumps.... no rubber at all in it's front end).

    Top arms are much easier than the lowers. Same bearings as the rear arms. You just fit a new set of bearings @ about $25bucks a pop and it's done.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    I got the idea from John Hunter, who owned a CX series 1 which he visually transformed into a series 2 (plastic bumpers,etc). He owned a panel shop in Sydney. He also had a brace of Weber DCNF45 carbys which gave me the idea and set me on a world wide search for them.

    Anyhow, when a got a new set of lower arm bushes, I took the outer bush and the OLD inner bush to a machine shop. I instructed them to machine off the nylon from the old inner and manufacture a bronze bush that would be a tight fit on the inner and a sliding fit inside the outer. I greased it with that black moly grease.

    I never tried to remove the top arms as there was no movement in them. Although they are the same bearings as the rear arm, they don't get the crap in them that the rear arms do.

    With the bottom arms, I didn't use a splitter to remove the bottom ball joint after unscrewing the big nut, but undid the two bolts holding the metal guard and balljoint to the hub and coaxed it apart using a screwdriver. I am neither a mechanic by trade nor a butcher by trade, but liberally use skill sets from both.

    John

  10. #10
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hmm.... I might try that ... If I can find a bronze bush that's a similar size, I could turn it down to fit. I was thinking the rubber outer would be where all the slack is. Maybe turning down some modern bushing to fit on the outer may work?

    I didn't think the actual bearing part you mention would have made a difference. It obviously does!

    Top arm bearings do wear just like the rear arms. It's the limited arc they move through that's the issue (just like at the back). They wear grooves in the seats, then the bearings break up. You can't find if there "gone" without removing the rollbar droplink, otherwise it strongly tensions the top arm preventing you finding the slop.

    Removing the lower ball joint is easy, the top one is *always* sloppy in my experiance (in the up 'n' down direction), however it appears to have no impact on handling. It's the rollbar ball joint that's hard to get off without damage to the boot unless you have the special tool that I'd like to fabricate.

    The top ball joints easy to change ..... if you have a 1million ton press. I've actually damaged my 12ton press doing CX top balljoints

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  11. #11
    Tadpole
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    Default Diravi Units

    Greg the difference between the early Diravi & 1978 onward:
    Early, had a tighter centering cam, & the slide valve has a slight taper each end giving more progression but higher LHM usage. And of course the trunnion tie rod ends. The ones post 83 or so had a nylon cowcather filter in the supply instead of the sintered bronze on the U piece supply line & I don't think they had the sintered filter between the head & case either. Seem to dimly recall you can identify the early unit, as it had two centering holes in the top of the unit for the alignment rods used when assembling.
    Regards,
    Chris in the West

  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stuart View Post
    Greg the difference between the early Diravi & 1978 onward:
    Early, had a tighter centering cam, & the slide valve has a slight taper each end giving more progression but higher LHM usage. And of course the trunnion tie rod ends. The ones post 83 or so had a nylon cowcather filter in the supply instead of the sintered bronze on the U piece supply line & I don't think they had the sintered filter between the head & case either. Seem to dimly recall you can identify the early unit, as it had two centering holes in the top of the unit for the alignment rods used when assembling.
    Regards,
    Chris in the West
    Ok ... this is how I think I should approach this .... Pull the most worn lower arm I can find from one of the cars here... See where they wear. If it's the bearing bit that John suggests, I'll add bronze bushes to the lower arm bushes. If its the outer rubber part..... well we'll worry about that when I get to it.

    I'll try both controllers and report back any difference found (if the old '76 one is still ok that is).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger
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    If the control unit has worn balls, it will randonly run left or right when the wheel is in the straight ahead position. You'd notice the problem most at full lock (can stick there) and going though an S-bend path, such as a roudabout (loose about straight ahead).

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    JBN
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    Shane, I thought first up that it was the rubber of the outer bush that compacted and produced movement. Later I found that just replacing the inner bush was virtually as good as replacing both inner and outer. At the time, I was able to buy bags of inner bushes separately from the outer bushes through a contact in France. There they apparently always sold them as separate items. In Australia, they were always sold as a complementary pair. With the bronze bushed inners, the steering was razor sharp, BUT it did feel a bit matallic hitting say speed bumps.

    In short, the minute gap difference between worn and new inner bushes seems to be magnified in real road conditions, such that a sensitive driver (I am a New Age man) can notice the difference in the precision of the steering. Anyone new to a CX would wonder what the hell you are complaining about, having rarely come across a car with such a precise steering.

    John

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    Sensitive new age guys, with worn balls and tight bushes..what sort of site is this guys ?

    Sorry couldn't help myself

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    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzelhund View Post
    Sensitive new age guys, with worn balls and tight bushes..what sort of site is this guys ?

    Sorry couldn't help myself
    My wife calls me an Old Woman. I'm just trying for some balance.

    John

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    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    Shane, I was wondering what tyres you are running? The reason I ask is that a friend who has an S1 turbo running 16" Alfa rims had a similar problem and it was mostly down to the fact he had a different brand of tyre on the rear to the front tyres.
    The previous CCCQ president also commented to me one day that with the defensive driving courses that they have organised, it was clear that it didn't matter so much what brand of tyre but more that all four wheels have exactly the same tyres. He also said that Michelin performed the best for the Citroens that wore them. Just a thought but it could make all the difference if you have put different tyres on the front which is commonly done on CX's due to fast tyre wear on the front and virtually nothing on the rear tyres. My wagon has the very old Michelin 185/80's on the back while I'm about to buy the second round of front tyres since I've owned it.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Andy,

    nah, not tyres. My experiance with them under CX's had always been you can barely pick the difference if driving in a straight line. This one feels like geometry change to me. Any differences tyres make would be consistant while your drive (not a sudden movement as the car moves over bumps for example).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    JBN
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    Shane, are you sure the steering knuckles are OK? They can really give unpredictable results if they are worn.

    John

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    Shane, are you sure the steering knuckles are OK? They can really give unpredictable results if they are worn.

    John
    Can you remember all the problems I had with inner tierod joints ?? (Lost in the crash). I have several brand newies here and the slop in them is staggering. the bush they used behind the balljoint in manufacture is way to soft. The car basically drove itself wherever it wanted with them fitted (brand new, straight out of the box). I welded up the bush section of them remove the soft bushes from them. they are now just a ball joint.... Better hope we never crash into gutters at high speed 'cos there's no give in there (then again, GS's, DS's, tractions and SM's have no give in there's either).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  21. #21
    JBN
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    There is even less give in kerbs and gutters.

    John

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    Member Sturla's Avatar
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    Apparently it is possible to adjust the steering governor to increase the return force of the steering.
    http://www.cxclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1058

    Will this be adjusted differently for the earlier/vs the later models?

    The lower bushes, I would concur the rubber is not wobbly while the nylon bush is worn away.
    -74 DS23 bvh, -78 CXgti, -85 CXgtiT1

  23. #23
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Sturla,

    did you rebuild the steering controller yourself?? I've never seen pictures of anyone dismantling and replacing the balls in the controller.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Better hope we never crash into gutters at high speed 'cos there's no give in there (then again, GS's, DS's, tractions and SM's have no give in there's either).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    G and D don't have such rubber bushes because their steering is no Diravi and hence buffers the big hits through the steering. For CX with Diravi it needs some buffering to protect from damage when hitting the gutters etc. You better avoid them...
    Why SM does not have such no idea.
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimmo View Post
    G and D don't have such rubber bushes because their steering is no Diravi and hence buffers the big hits through the steering. For CX with Diravi it needs some buffering to protect from damage when hitting the gutters etc. You better avoid them...
    Why SM does not have such no idea.
    I've been trying to find the pictures that I took of the slop with the new inner tierod joints.... but it appears I've lost them in the crash. The car was unsafe to drive at any speed with them fitted. I still have another newie there, so I'll refit that joint and take a piccie of the slop in them again when I'm working on it.

    The alternative was don't drive the car ... I imagine most of the tierods you find on ebay will be these "sloppy" ones as owners realise what they have purchased and re-sell them again and again.

    I have no doubt if you purchase a pair through Andre Pol or CX Basis and request they verify they aren't "sloppy", you'll be fine. I'm certainly happy enough with the ones fitted to the car at the moment. CX's doen't crash into gutters or anything like that fortunately. That's the XM's forte. The damn thing always drives into stuff 'cos it doesn't turn when you move the steering wheel.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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