GS unidentified engine noises
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    Default GS unidentified engine noises

    The GS has made this whining noise for a while now and I cannot work out what it is. When I open the bonnet and try to locate the noise it seems to be deep down in the engine. Lately it is probably more frequent and I have been more concerned with the state of the cambelt bearings so have ordered them and a pair of new belts to be fitted in a little over a week.

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    The noise is a really eerie moaning and somewhat amusingly changes tone like some annoying musical old horror film. I have tightened the alternator belt but the noise is still there and it does not relate to engine load or anything related to the hydraulics.

    Could it be a serious problem like big end bearing wear?
    I just wish I knew what it was and if anyone else has come across this moaning/ screaming/ whistling noise. At times it sounds as if the engine has been supercharged like it is air rushing past a small opening but at other times it is a sharper sound that is very ear piercing.
    Any help is much appreciated.

    Cheers, Andy

  2. #2
    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Not from the manifold?
    1972 SM
    1989 BX 16 Valve

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    The exhaust? I will chock it up and get under to have a look. Cheers for that Donat. Are you taking your GS to Stanthorpe?

  4. #4
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Is it the alternator?? An altnerator under high load will "whine" quite loudly

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  5. #5
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Oh gee's...... That loud whining doesn't co-encide with the times your wife/girlfriend are in the car do they

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    he he, yeah do want some crackers to go with that?.....whining well it is not the alternator as the sound is much deeper than that and does not get worse under load, say with wipers and headlights on which is about the only thing electrical on this one!
    I got under to see if I could locate any air leaks from the manifold but just got a lungful of fumes. There are definately exhaust leaks where the Y-section clamps onto the tailpipe and holes in the Y-section itself. I have patched and sealed and bandaged but it really needs some serious work. I could not get in far enough to see anything happening on the manifold side of things but it does really sound like a crook bearing to me on closer inspection as it is a metallic sound.
    I called SKF to see if I could order the whole belt and bearing kit (VKMA 03010). It is not listed so they are going to make an enquiry overseas to see if any are left. I said I was involved with AF so he could do a deal for us if he can locate them.

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    is there a chance this could be one or more of the big end bearings?

  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Big ends don't whine .... They make a fatal sounding deep knock inside the motor (usually on startup is a good time to hear 'em knocking away before the oil pressure builds). I couldn't imagine a Citroen motor developing a big end knock. My old R12 used to give a big end rattle when she fired from cold though.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    Thanks Shane, what else could it be? It sounds like it is deep in the engine. I probably should get out there and record the noise.

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    A small clip I just uploaded to Youtube possibly showing just as much the necessity for new engine mounts.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2DHjlvipRE

  11. #11
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    that's belt noise .... remove the alternator belt and see if it goes away. It could be dry bearings in the altnerator too ?

    it sounds like it's idling on 3cylinders. Maybe a really good tune up will help things

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    I only tightened the alternator belt today and there is not much flex but the noise is still there. I will do as you suggest and take off the alternator belt. It wasn't idling well this arvo. Usually it is better and once it is warmed it runs beautifully. The headlights do faintly flicker so I guess the alternator and belt could be suspect. Thanks again Shane.

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Andy,
    My offering to your dilemma,

    I suspect you have a timing belt idler bearing seriously on the way out...that shreaking noise sounds like a very rusty bearing scream ( have you been crossing any creeks lately ? )
    Had a similar noise on a Camry..and it suddenly seized and broke the spring loaded tensioner mounting bracket off.


    Or as a seriously offbeat stab in the dark..the heel on the distributor points being dry or similar round and round bits in the distributor.

    I read you are investigating timing belts and idlers anyway .....

    Shane is correct about distributor howl .. why not take off the belt and spin the alternator pulley by hand and assess its smoothness that way.

    If I recall correctly GS and the flat twins use roller bearing big ends..the crank pieces are pushed together under huge pressure during assembly.. and deemed never to come apart .. I doubt the internal bearings would develop a high pitched scream.

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger!
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    PS I agree with Shane that it is only running on 3 cylinders..shout it some new spark plugs and maybe leads ( are they all pushed in and making contact in the distributor cap and properly on the spark plugs too inside the pressed tin cooling shrouds ?? ) and adjust the points gap.

  15. #15
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    Andy,

    unlikey that it has anything to do with the main or bigend bearings. Checks are to have it running at the point where the noise is most noticeable and shove in the clutch. If no change then put it in gear with the clutch still in. If still no change the clutch throwout bearing and gearbox input / layshaft bearings are not the problem.

    Run with the alternator belt off. No change then alternator is out. Remove the fan, place a spacer (same size as the pulley centre, bit of pipe?) retighten and run briefly (no more than one minute) This eliminates any fan / cooling air noise.

    No change then stop the motor and DO NOT restart untill you have replaced the cambelts AND belt tensioner bearings.

    Forget the distributor, they do not whine, and with the belts off turn the oil pump by hand to make sure is is turning freely.

    Keep smiling,

    Fento

  16. #16
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    It really does sound like a dry bearing.... You really shouldn't run the motor until you have checked the timing belt tensioners. Loosing the alternator 'cos the bearings have seized is one thing .................. Losing a cambelt 'cos a tensioner has seized is quite something else

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    Andy,

    That sounds like cambelts rubbing on air cooling shrouding - VERY DANGEROUS

    Don't drive it/run the engine until you have fixed it.

    Cheers,

    Ken

  18. #18
    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy N View Post
    The exhaust? I will chock it up and get under to have a look. Cheers for that Donat. Are you taking your GS to Stanthorpe?
    I'll be in Europe as of tomorrow night and away during the Cit-In. Are there any confirmed GSs turning up this year?

    By your description of the noise, I had similar with the manifold many GSs ago, but it could be the alternator, cam belt and everything else all rolled into one - which I hope not for you sake. Have you had John Walton look at it?
    1972 SM
    1989 BX 16 Valve

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    OK thanks for all your help guys, I will take the front of the car off and get in there and deduct each possibility one by one. It could be as simple as Ken's suggestion of the belts rubbing on the cooling shroud. I'll investigate and report my findings!

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    Good luck Mr.Bushmechanic (referring to your location rather than skills and pragmatic approach), hope it will be sorted for Cit-In. Or else you may have to take the taxi to Stanthorpe

    I don't know if I am much better with my engine electrics wizardry problems in the Prestige... but I can always take the trusty old c-matic if all else fails...
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimmo View Post
    Good luck Mr.Bushmechanic (referring to your location rather than skills and pragmatic approach), hope it will be sorted for Cit-In. Or else you may have to take the taxi to Stanthorpe

    I don't know if I am much better with my engine electrics wizardry problems in the Prestige... but I can always take the trusty old c-matic if all else fails...
    Oh gees, pragmatic eh! What a compliment...and actually I have been known to do a bit of bush mechanics to get out of trouble. Not long ago somewhere close to where you live up at Mt. Nebo with the green CX and the alternator cable shorted and melted the metal on the battery clamp. Someone stopped who had some zip ties so tied the cable up to the battery and wedged a gumboot in so that the cable didn't short out on anything again. Got all the way home no troubles at all!

    If the GS isn't roadworthy I may have to take the ruosteinen vaunu (C-matic CX wagon) and hide it's ugly bits away from those who like to poke at rust and watch it fall out!

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Bruce H's Avatar
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    AFAIK Andy's is the only GS registered to attend the Cit-in. Not trying to put any pressure on you to get it fixed
    Bruce H

    Now 99 Xantia SX x2; 96 Xantia SX; 76 GS Club Estate x2; 76 GS Club; 74 GS Club; 88 VW T3 Reimo
    Before: AX Gti; BX 19TRi Estate; CX 2200 Super & Pallas; CX2400 Pallas; CX 2400ie Prestige auto; DS3 DStyle; GS Pallas; GSA Club; Xantia Image Estate; Xantia Exclusive; Xsara VTR R4; 1.4 Special Estate; Virage; R16TS

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  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    How many CXs registered?
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    It is all fixed now. I managed to order the cambelt tensioner bearings and belts in time to get the work done. CBC Australia has all the parts needed and also included a camshaft seal which wasn't needed just yet.
    One of the cam bearings, the one that tensions the longer belt on the passenger side had seized at least partially anyway so I don't know whether the sound was the belt running over the seized bearing or the bearing occasionally freeing up but with a protest. Surprisingly the belt was in good condition perhaps a little stretched that's all. I was very lucky however as it was a long drive to get it to where it was fixed but the noise didn't come up at all on the trip.
    With new belts and bearings it is another thing to cross off the list but time is running out to have things fixed by Cit-in. The front suspension and steering needs a huge amount of work as does the front brake system.
    Oh and while the front was off I noticed the hydraulic pump gaiter is weeping and didn't have one so at some stage very soon the front will have to come off again. I think then I will do some work to the engine.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails GS unidentified engine noises-engine-front-gs.jpg  

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    Ahh the bane of owning a GS - the front has to come off all the time. You should try an airconditioned one!!! Lost count of the number of hydraulic pump gaiters I changed on my 3 GSes

    Cheers,

    Ken W

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