Hand cranking late Special solenoid woes
  • Register
  • Help
Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Castlemaine Area
    Posts
    466

    Default Hand cranking late Special solenoid woes

    Hand cranking 1974 D Special solenoid woes.

    Luckily, what seems to be the solenoid spat the Dummy at Janet's Mother's place as they were about to go shopping. John at DS Motors suggested I check the wire and relay controlling the solenoid which I did yesterday.
    The relay did its job and gave a live wire on the load side when the starter button was pushed so that was okay.
    The solenoid was making NO noise at all. I put a jumper lead from another battery just in case but no difference. I touched the wire from the load side of the relay to Positive where the bullet connection is and just a spark and NO noise. At this stage I did my wrist in a bit on the crank handle when it wanted to come back at me and found by using my boot to crank the engine it started immediately.

    I decided to bring the car home and after parking the car thought I'd try starting it normally again. This time I got a clunk but NO turning over. Tried it a few times and it got worse as it went back to a bit of a click and then nothing- - just a spark.
    I'm convinced that it is the solenoid on the starter but thought someone might tell me different.

    Advertisement


    I'm used to pre "68 D's which are great as they have the solenoid at the battery.

    Anyway, It was good to be able to crank the car by "hand". Always a pleasure to find such an early mechanical tool on such a sophisticated car.

    Oh well, we'll take Janet's mum to a winery today in the "68 Safari. Hasn't got the CD Player and the seats are not as deep and comfy but it'll cruise - - - fine.

    John.
    Last edited by gilberthenry; 27th March 2011 at 08:57 AM. Reason: Spelling error

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Northern NSW
    Posts
    1,057

    Default

    Sounds like you may have worn out brushes in the starter motor.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Camperdown 3260 Australia
    Posts
    3,070

    Default

    G'Day John,
    The contacts inside the solenoid degrade to the point that they don't make contact no matter how strongly the solenoid armature draws back. Dismantling the solenoid will reveal a bronze disc on the back of the armature that will probably be all pitted and corroded. This can be dressed true again. If I remember correctly the contacts at the rear also can be removed once the 13mm Spanner size nuts are removed. These too should be dressed true. Then it is a matter of rectifying any deficiencies in the motor itself; commutator and brushes etc., and reassembling and adjusting the engagement.
    Before you remove the starter, test to see if the motor operates on its own by bridging the main terminals with a screw driver. Also test to see that current is supplied from the relay to the solenoid. Get someone to operate the starter while you hold a test light on the activation terminal at the solenoid with the other end of the test light grounded to the frame. This should confirm solenoid trouble. You will need to remove the exhaust manifold to do this. The manifold has to come out if you want to remove the starter motor in any case, so this is no big deal. I have not met Houdini, but I believe only he could get that starter out with the manifold in place.
    Cheers Gerry
    PS .Actually the clunk you got probably indicates that the relay is working fine and that the solenoid is not switching current to the armature.

  4. #4
    UFO
    UFO is offline
    CitroŽn Tragic UFO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Gerringong, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    9,721

    Default

    Wot they all said - oh the joys of removing a late D starter motor.

    While you're at it check out and maybe rebuild the engine mounts too, because you will be looking at the right side one when you get the manifold off.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    1,955

    Default

    Joy?
    I saw something about joy and it went like this:

    Oh well, we'll take Janet's mum to a winery today in the "68 Safari. Hasn't got the CD Player and the seats are not as deep and comfy but it'll cruise - - - fine.
    Nuttin wrong with that.

  6. #6
    Member knipdlo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Syracuse, NY
    Posts
    68

    Default

    if you're doing lots-o-hand cranking I'll throw in my :

    If memory serves

    when you insert the crank stand to the left side of the car, with the ignition off slowly rotate the handle clockwise until it is just below the 9 o'clock position- there you should feel the start of the compression stroke, let the handle hang- jump in the car and do whatever starting procedure fits your fancy. Come back around front and stand again on the far side of the car- pull the handle up and over the 12 o'clock position keeping your palms down. If the car backfires it will pull the handle back around to the 9 o'clock position out of your hands, without snapping your wrists

    The method takes a couple tries- when you get the hang of "throwing" it around the 12 you can have it started just as easy as by that new fangeled electricity!
    1966 CitroŽn DS19 Pallas, 1969 Ford F100, 1959 Austin Healey Frogeye Sprite, 1995 Ford Mustang GT 5.0 Convertible

    And remember, if the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy!

    The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself..

  7. #7
    UFO
    UFO is offline
    CitroŽn Tragic UFO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Gerringong, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    9,721

    Default

    Not that it's any help, but I watched DS crank start his ID19 this afternoon. Only took a few turns. Not bad considering the car had not been started for probably over a year, therefore there was probably no fuel in the carby and he had to pump the fuel up as well.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    9,777

    Default

    I assume we all know NOT to wrap our thumb around the handle, lest a kickback break your thumb or wrist as alluded to already??? If this makes no sense at all and you think you might ever need to use a crank handle, ask someone to show you how before the need arises.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Camperdown 3260 Australia
    Posts
    3,070

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by knipdlo View Post
    if you're doing lots-o-hand cranking I'll throw in my :

    If memory serves

    when you insert the crank stand to the left side of the car, with the ignition off slowly rotate the handle clockwise until it is just below the 9 o'clock position- there you should feel the start of the compression stroke, let the handle hang- jump in the car and do whatever starting procedure fits your fancy. Come back around front and stand again on the far side of the car- pull the handle up and over the 12 o'clock position keeping your palms down. If the car backfires it will pull the handle back around to the 9 o'clock position out of your hands, without snapping your wrists

    The method takes a couple tries- when you get the hang of "throwing" it around the 12 you can have it started just as easy as by that new fangeled electricity!
    This method with D series and TA works only if you bring the car to the point of compression with the crank handle, wherever that maybe in the 360 degrees of rotation, and then have an assistant depress the clutch so that you can turn the crankhandle to the 9 o'clock position. Remember the D and the TA both crank the engine through the gearbox and the clutch. Therefore the crank dog could be in any position in relation to the crankshaft!!!!!!!
    Cheers Gerry
    PS Of course if you have a 5 speed or an auto D none of the above will work------------No crank dog!!
    Last edited by gerrypro; 27th March 2011 at 08:55 PM.

  10. #10
    Member knipdlo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Syracuse, NY
    Posts
    68

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    This method with D series and TA works only if you bring the car to the point of compression with the crank handle, wherever that maybe in the 360 degrees of rotation, and then have an assistant depress the clutch so that you can turn the crankhandle to the 9 o'clock position. Remember the D and the TA both crank the engine through the gearbox and the clutch. Therefore the crank dog could be in any position in relation to the crankshaft!!!!!!!
    Cheers Gerry
    PS Of course if you have a 5 speed or an auto D none of the above will work------------No crank dog!!
    Excellent point! I didn't even think of that!- and the thumbs are pretty crucial too.. haha
    1966 CitroŽn DS19 Pallas, 1969 Ford F100, 1959 Austin Healey Frogeye Sprite, 1995 Ford Mustang GT 5.0 Convertible

    And remember, if the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy!

    The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself..

  11. #11
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,426

    Default

    I don't think I'd ever use a crank handle unless I had no other choice.... eg: A traction you can't push start. On these cars you can retard the ignition to reduce the likelyhood of kickback with the advance/retard lever. ID19's have a bracket on the dizzie that you can wind a few turns retard on, then wind back after it's running (even if it doesnt' run back into the car).

    My grandfather shattered his wrist and arm when he was young crank starting a truck. On a DS I'd just push the bloody thing and drop the clutch. A well tuned car will start instantly (particually the old long stroke motors, there incredible.... first grunt of the starter and there away).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Camperdown 3260 Australia
    Posts
    3,070

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I don't think I'd ever use a crank handle unless I had no other choice.... eg: A traction you can't push start. On these cars you can retard the ignition to reduce the likelyhood of kickback with the advance/retard lever. ID19's have a bracket on the dizzie that you can wind a few turns retard on, then wind back after it's running (even if it doesnt' run back into the car).

    My grandfather shattered his wrist and arm when he was young crank starting a truck. On a DS I'd just push the bloody thing and drop the clutch. A well tuned car will start instantly (particually the old long stroke motors, there incredible.... first grunt of the starter and there away).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Actually hand cranking a D , TA or GS is dead easy. But as stated before NEVER wrap your thumb around the crankhandle. Grip the handle with the palm and four fingers only keeping the thumb well out of the way.
    Cheers Gerry

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Castlemaine Area
    Posts
    466

    Default

    Thankyou for all the discussion.

    I did clutch start the car in reverse in Janet's Mum's driveway first to get it in her shed. I had the nose pointing out to tow start it as the grass is too thick to push start. Then, when I came back to it I went through the process of checking things. It was then that I cranked the car. I know not to wrap my thumb around the crank handle and this was endorsed when Michael caught a tree on the grey Fergi tractor some years ago. His thumb was nearly ripped off as the steering wheel spun around unexpectadly. So I drive without my thumb wrapped around for the same reason.

    So the manifold will come off and the hints above taken into account.

    The '68 Safari did go beautifully as expected so Sunday was a good day. Picking up old lights and junk is part of the course from secondhand shops etc, so we came back loaded up. The wine coffee and lunch was nice and the country between Brisbane and Cunninghams Gap, on the way to Warwick is looking extra special at the moment, being green and lush. The mountain range is always a beautiful site.

    So thankyou for the input as the work of pulling the starter motor out can now be justified.

    Thanks again, John.

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! wiley_coyote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Uijeongbu, South Korea
    Posts
    122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    Sounds like you may have worn out brushes in the starter motor.
    Exhaust heat may have also damaged the starter innards over time.

    Can't find it now, but thought I saw a newer c35 starter fitted to a 5-bearing engine once. Was from a French website describing a fellow's adventures restoring his DS. The newer starter was quite a bit smaller, reflecting the global improvements made with starters in general. Not much help if C35's were never sold in Oz, though...

    I'll try to look through my archives for the article.

    My own experience with newer, smaller starters upgrades on older cars has been good, both with Chrysler's and VW's.

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Castlemaine Area
    Posts
    466

    Default

    It's okay. I'll get the odd things fixed as it shouldn't be too difficult. We actually have a C35 Van which is only one of two in Australia. Maxim Motors brought our Van and a pickup into Australia with the intention of importing them but with all the red tape and changing them to right hand drive Jim Reddiex decided not to.
    Ours is a diesel and an incredibly reliable workhorse "up at the farm".
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hand cranking late Special solenoid woes-safari-gympie-2008-4.jpg   Hand cranking late Special solenoid woes-safari-gympie-2008-3.jpg   Hand cranking late Special solenoid woes-c35-towing-56-ds.jpg  

  16. #16
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    8,185

    Icon3

    Quote Originally Posted by wiley_coyote View Post
    Exhaust heat may have also damaged the starter innards over time.

    Can't find it now, but thought I saw a newer c35 starter fitted to a 5-bearing engine once. Was from a French website describing a fellow's adventures restoring his DS. The newer starter was quite a bit smaller, reflecting the global improvements made with starters in general. Not much help if C35's were never sold in Oz, though...

    I'll try to look through my archives for the article.

    My own experience with newer, smaller starters upgrades on older cars has been good, both with Chrysler's and VW's.
    There is a readily available replacement starter for D models here in Aus, made by Valeo, smaller i.e. shorter so a small mod is made to the rear of the heat shield fitting (I moved the rear bracket, just a couple of pop rivets, jackafrica used a threaded extension to reach the back of the starter . These spin much faster than the original, I have one fitted to my D and can highly recommend

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Dťesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Dťesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Dťesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  17. #17
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Pingelly, Australia
    Posts
    19

    Default Sounds like a similar late D problem

    Last night I was driving home when some nutcase went straight over a crossroads give way sign, crossing my path. Luckily I was driving the 74 DSuper so when I slammed my foot on the brake it came to a swift halt, thus avoiding a collision. Just as well as the other car driver was probably uninsured and unemployed and I would have been left with a big repair bill.
    Anyway I continued home glad to be alive, parked the D and retired. The next morning the D would not go . It tried to turn over a few times and then...nothing.Dead.I remembered this recent post and referred back to it. I am thinking the cause might be a loose wire on the starter/solenoid dislodged from the sudden braking last night. The starter motor has been very reliable until now.Starting first time usually. So I am trying to avoid taking the exhaust manifold off to get at the starter only to find a loose wire, just out of sight. Any ideas anyone?
    Still it is good to know that the D can be crank started and driven rather than transported to get repaired if necessary. Shouldnt all cars have this facility?
    I have had to remove the liscense plate to give access to the crank. I am thinking, is there a way of refitting the plate to allow easy access? Can a hole be drilled into the plate,legally? All is not lost. I also have a 74 DSpecial so I am still on the road.
    Quote Originally Posted by gilberthenry View Post
    Hand cranking 1974 D Special solenoid woes.

    Luckily, what seems to be the solenoid spat the Dummy at Janet's Mother's place as they were about to go shopping. John at DS Motors suggested I check the wire and relay controlling the solenoid which I did yesterday.
    The relay did its job and gave a live wire on the load side when the starter button was pushed so that was okay.
    The solenoid was making NO noise at all. I put a jumper lead from another battery just in case but no difference. I touched the wire from the load side of the relay to Positive where the bullet connection is and just a spark and NO noise. At this stage I did my wrist in a bit on the crank handle when it wanted to come back at me and found by using my boot to crank the engine it started immediately.

    I decided to bring the car home and after parking the car thought I'd try starting it normally again. This time I got a clunk but NO turning over. Tried it a few times and it got worse as it went back to a bit of a click and then nothing- - just a spark.
    I'm convinced that it is the solenoid on the starter but thought someone might tell me different.

    I'm used to pre "68 D's which are great as they have the solenoid at the battery.

    Anyway, It was good to be able to crank the car by "hand". Always a pleasure to find such an early mechanical tool on such a sophisticated car.

    Oh well, we'll take Janet's mum to a winery today in the "68 Safari. Hasn't got the CD Player and the seats are not as deep and comfy but it'll cruise - - - fine.

    John.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •