DS Hydraulic pump
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Default DS Hydraulic pump

    Lately Moby Dick has been sounding a bit raucous in the pumping department and slower to rise.

    Cycling has always been rapid because of the internal leakage in the steering pinion. This is a known problem.

    What concerned me over the weekend was the old beast seemed a lot slower to rise up from cold, and the pump sounded very harsh.

    So tonight I bit the bullet, pulled out my spare pump and changed them over.

    I should point out that the spare pump ostensibly came from a working car, but is an unknown quantity.

    With the spare aboard, the pumping noise is certainly quieter, but it's pumping for longer.

    Let me elucidate.

    With the old pump, it would build up to cut out pressure reasonably quickly, and cycle for maybe 10 seconds every 10 to 15 seconds. (This is at idle by the way.) Steady state is a regular cycle every 10 to 15 seconds. As I say, the leakage through the pinion valve is a known fault I've measured and proven. (But not yet addressed)

    Now the replacement pump is on. It's quieter, but it seems to be pumping for maybe 30-40 seconds to get up to cutout pressure. Once there it's quiet until the pressure drops to cut in when it then pumps for maybe another 30 odd seconds before achieving cutout.

    If I lift the engine revs, obviously it reaches cutout quicker, but the duration of the "cut-in to cut-out" pump cycle is noticeably longer.

    This seems to me that the pump is perhaps struggling to produce the pressure required to achieve cut in? Maybe a couple of the cylinders are bludging a bit?

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    Given that the old pump sounds a little rattly inside when turned by hand, what does the brains trust think my chances are of being able to recondition it?

    And on that topic, can anyone point me towards a good descriptive process of reconditioning the pump? If it comes to that, any recommendations of reco people. Is Pleiades still doing his thing in the North?

    I admit I haven't yet done the searchy thing, but I've just come up from the Shed and am about to relax with Top Gear and a good Scotch, in that order.

    Any or all input is valued and will be given due consideration.

    Cheers, (hic) Pottsy
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") Seasoned traveller
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Next project
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  2. #2
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Hey pottsy,

    Rebuild them yourself. It's not that hard. Start with the one that's off the car, then do the other one once you have installed the first one. The only tricky special tool you need is something to remove the can. You could make one yourself or borrow mine (which is Buttercup Bob's old one. I made a set of clamps to hold all the valve gear together for reassembly out of a mangled DS inner guard! There are good diagrams of them in the early DS repair manual. To reinstall the can I used half a dead sphere as a dolly in the vice. You could carve a dolly from a piece of wood.

    The DS repair manuals have good instructions how to do it. The DS19 repair manual on the red CD has the best diagrams. Repair manual 518 has the best photos. I think Jint Nijman's website has a page about it, too. My internet is pretty dodgy tonight so I can't really go chasing it for you.

    I have a list of the right o-rings, but not where I am right now. I could get it for you in 2 or 3 days.

    If the pump body is cracked you will need to replace it, and new bodies are not easy to find. It may not be cracked, as if it was you would notice the fluid leakage. If the front bearing is stuffed you will have to replace it. The rear bearing seems to last pretty well. Apart from that, all you really have to do is pull it apart, clean everything, replace the o-rings and give the valve discs a light touch with fine emery.

    Keep the components of each cylinder together. I use an egg carton. The push rods are apparently different lengths, which is why you need to keep each cylinder's bits together, but I have not yet measured any differences in push rod length within a pump. The main issue is that none of the push rods is too long to prevent easy rotation of the shaft.

    Use plenty of LHM as a lubricant when you put it back together.

    Once it is all back together, spin the pulley and you should hear a sharp croaking sound.

    Roger

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    I know the pump can look a bit daunting but I did mine at home with basic tools except for the removal of the can as Roger Wilkinson mentioned. Admittedly I assembled mine twice before I got it right but the first time was just a trial run! I used a conventional bearing puller to disassemble and reassemble the pump and made a wooden block to push the can back on.

    There is a good description of the process here plus some useful tips:

    http://www.schaalbouw.nl/citroen/pumpoverhaul.htm

    and an interesting video here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZPxu...eature=related
    Michael
    Member, Citroen Car Club NSW

    DS23 Pallas 5 sp. "Francoise" , BX19TRi Auto "Jacques Dutronc" , Teardrop Trailer "The Toad", BMW R65 "Rosamund"
    In the past: Renault 750, Dauphine, R4, R8, R10, Peugeot 504 Familiale, ID 19 (x2), Safari (x2)

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Pottsy,

    Gudday!

    Removal of the can is a piece of piss - firstly blank of the discharge port with a plug (same thread as most wheel studs / bolts), or clamp in a vyce with leather, oil jointing, etc, to seal the port, fill the pump with whatever oil you have lying around, the thicker the better, fill your grease gun with oil, connect it to the spout on the 'can' and pump. The can will detach from the body with no problems, no damage, very quickly and under full control. The trick is to make sure there is no air remaining in the pump body, otherwise you may be sprayed with oil when they separate. The use of modified bearing pullers is inconvenient, expensive and have the potential to distort the can. Avoid them.

    If the valve body is cracked use a heavier oil, and pump a little faster! Soo easy!!

    Standard grease gun fitting, two inches of garden hose and two hose clamps - why has this simple procedure been so mystified over the years?

    Replace by using a wooden block hollowed out to match the curvature of the can rear PLUS a layer of felt, place it under a press (drill press will be fine) to replace.

    Remove the nut holding the drive pulley by using your sphere removal tool to lock the pulley. The pulley diameter and the sphere diameter are the same.

    All seals and bearings are available as a kit, also replacement steel valve bodies, from Roger Parker, Oleopneumatics, on (08) 8339 6943. Price and service highly recommended.

    I use a metallic 'cup cake' baking dish to separate the parts, egg cartons may leave fibres on the parts. Keep all matched parts together.

    The main point is to ensure absolute cleanliness during the reassembly process - most important!

    regards,

    fento

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    When I left I donated a set of holders for the parts and spring clips for the reassembly, to the NSW Club!????
    Think Global - Ride on Spheres

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    Sometimes, a car that is slow to rise has a partially blocked strainer screen.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Wow. Thanks guys. I'm encouraged to go for it now. Just have to find the time to do so.

    It sounds like the task may be a lot easier than I envisaged. Looks like a phone call or two to Roger might be on the agenda.

    Daffy, I cleaned the strainer screen while I was changing the pump last night, but the difference between pumps is too huge to be accounted for by a bit of flow resistance in the inlet. But thanks for the thought. Sometimes it's the simple things like that we ignore.

    Cheers, Pottsy (better get back to work now)
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") Seasoned traveller
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Next project
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

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