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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Default EFI D madness

    Hi everyone

    Well this weekend has been busy here, the EFI has the engine back but......

    In the time the engine was out I checked the wiring and saw a few potential problems. I got a Citroen manual that shows all the wiring to the relays and the harnass to the ECU. I checked every single wire but yea well looks like it didn't help althought they were all working. Next was the relays with the help of the manual I checked and replaced alot of female plugs, fixed them

    So today I want to start the car, nope nope. put on the battery and click click goes the fuel pump relay and the potential reversing relay ok, can't be a problem, the click only happens as you remove or put back the terminal wire to the battery.

    Strangely they get warm but the main relay is cool even though the ignition is switched off. plugged in the pump with the ignition off and the battery wired on. the pump has power, ignition on or off it has power, tried to start, there is spark but no injector opening, we took out the injector to see if it opens, no it doesn't.

    All the wires is hooked up, if I move the throttle spindle the injectors doesn't open like it should according to the manual. Is there something wrong with the wiring or the ECU? Trigger points, well I do not know if the work

    Any help EFI gurus?

    Thanks
    Corne

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    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Rally's Avatar
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    The fuel pump should not be running all the time , check that you are using the correct pin on the ECU.

    No injector pulse is mostly a problem with the "points " in the base of the dissy.Check and see if you have a output signal from the "points "
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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Thanks Rally!

    I got a new relay this morning and (hella) as the old one (main relay) looked quite dodgy on the outside...
    With this change I had the permanent running pump and clicking of the pump and potential reversing relays apon putting the wire to the battery terminal

    I then swopped the new main relay with the fuel pump relay. Now the relays switch audible off when you switch the ignition switch off and audible click when you switch it back on, but now the pump doesn't cycle at all not even the supposed 1 second after ignition turn on. I swopped the new relay then to the potential reversing relay and same thing, audible click on and off but no pump cycling. I will get 2 more relays and replace the potential and fuel pump relays too and go from there. I hope it's got nothing to do with the ECU (which I do suspect though it is a almost none problem giver)

    Rally how can I test the output of the trigger points in the base of the dizzy? I don't have a clue but I will like to check them and make sure.

    Another problem I noticed is when the ignition is switched on and I press the lever to have the starter turn smoke starts to emit from the underside of the voltage regulator, I then saw the exciter's male point broke off

    Could that have caused a system voltage spike of somesort and fried something?

    I checked the ignition system there is a nice firm spark at the sparkplugs.

    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

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  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    I just did the troubleshooting for no pump cycling.


    My battery is 12.38 volts.

    1st cause "no voltage at terminal 86 of pump relay(12V) because main relay not operating or cable defective." I get 9.1 volts at the moment at terminal 86 the old relays is used at the main and fuel pump relay potential reverse relay is the new one.

    remedy

    "eliminate any open circut"

    2nd cause " Voltage present at terminal 86 of pump relay but no ground at terminal 85" (I haven't yet checked that though.)

    Remedy
    "Fuel pump operates for app 1 to 2 seconds after switching on the ignition. check with voltmeter; ground for terminal85 is made by control unit. replace control unit"

    3rd cause
    "opencircuit in cable reom pump relay terminal 87 to + connection at pump"

    remedy
    "Eliminate open circuit"

    this is described in the Citroen EFI manual.

    Can you guys maby help with this descriptions? I think the 2nd cause is mu trouble so then it's likely the control unit...

    Ok before I think the worst, tomorrow 2 new relays in the place of the old, maby the relays cause a voltage drop?

    Also noticed now the injectors pulse when I remove the battery terminal or put it back

    cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

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    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    It's a holiday day today. I forgot!

    Drove through this quiet town to hopefully get a place open to help me with a relay, YES got an auto electrical shop open!.

    Asked inside and got one, now the owner asks me should the relay be 2 87 terminals or an 87 and 87a terminal

    There's my problem why the pump continues to run! I used the 87a as an 87 terminal to both the fuel pump and potential relay giving them constant power! Stupid stupid me!

    Now I'll recheck the mistake and hopefully the pump and injectors will start to co operate..

    I'll keep you posted

    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneSoutAfrica View Post
    It's a holiday day today. I forgot!

    Drove through this quiet town to hopefully get a place open to help me with a relay, YES got an auto electrical shop open!.

    Asked inside and got one, now the owner asks me should the relay be 2 87 terminals or an 87 and 87a terminal

    There's my problem why the pump continues to run! I used the 87a as an 87 terminal to both the fuel pump and potential relay giving them constant power! Stupid stupid me!

    Now I'll recheck the mistake and hopefully the pump and injectors will start to co operate..

    I'll keep you posted

    Cheers
    Corne
    Corne,

    Also be aware not all 4pin/5 pin auto relays have the same pin out (ie pins in the same place).

    The relays with the mounting bracket seem to have different pin outs to the plug in type.

    The number versus functions are the same 'tho.

    I got caught with this difference a couple of days ago.

    cheers

    Rob

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Thanks Rob

    Yea almost got caught with the same thing, the orinigal Bosch relays are very different in pins position. I figured them out though.

    Ok now the injectors are pulsing but the pump still doesn't prime when you switch on the ignition or when the engine swings, I wonder if the 12.38 volts in my battery are too low? though I think they are enough

    Going to perform the troubleshooting testing and see if I can find the problem

    cheers corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneSoutAfrica View Post
    Thanks Rob

    Yea almost got caught with the same thing, the orinigal Bosch relays are very different in pins position. I figured them out though.

    Ok now the injectors are pulsing but the pump still doesn't prime when you switch on the ignition or when the engine swings, I wonder if the 12.38 volts in my battery are too low? though I think they are enough

    Going to perform the troubleshooting testing and see if I can find the problem

    cheers corne
    If the car has a tachometric relay or similar switching the fuel pump it needs a signal derived from the start position on the ignition switch. It also needs a tacho signal off the points or dizzy sensor cct. It also needs a signal from the ignition on and always on 12 volts. Finally a feed to the fuel pump.

    I would be looking in this area for a problem, as a very temporary trial, power the fuel pump directly and see if the car starts. That will confirm a tachometric relay problem.

    Attached are details of the Bosch tachometric relay, it gives an overview of the operation.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by robmac; 21st March 2011 at 10:22 PM.

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Rob

    Thanks I'll keep an eye open, I just checked tha manual and they have the same part number from Bosch for all 3 relays I bypassed the pump directly to 12V and it worked

    I think my battery is too flat, the cranking starts to go down and the relay clicking is not audible anymore. First battery charge now

    I'll go your route when all else fails today, shops closed so I can't get a relay

    cheers
    Corne
    Last edited by CorneSoutAfrica; 21st March 2011 at 10:57 PM.
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneSoutAfrica View Post
    Rob

    Thanks I'll keep an eye open, I just checked tha manual and they have the same part number from Bosch for all 3 relays I bypassed the pump directly to 12V and it worked

    I think my battery is too flat, the cranking starts to go down and the relay clicking is not audible anymore. First battery charge now

    I'll go your route when all else fails today, shops closed so I can't get a relay

    cheers
    Corne
    Corne,

    Does the fuel pump relay connect to an external control box/board./jesus box ?

    If so suspect that.

    It's also possible there is NO tachometric relay - the 504 ti of similar vintage didn't have one.

    So maybe it just a standard switched relay - another thought- some manufacturers used a vacuum bellows off the inlet manifold to switch the relay. No vacuum = engine off. This would need to bypassed whilst starting.

    I really don't know enough Cits FI.

    If there is no safety function a Bosch tachometic relay would be a good addition!

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Corne,

    Does the fuel pump relay connect to an external control box/board./jesus box ?

    If so suspect that.

    It's also possible there is NO tachometric relay - the 504 ti of similar vintage didn't have one.

    So maybe it just a standard switched relay - another thought- some manufacturers used a vacuum bellows off the inlet manifold to switch the relay. No vacuum = engine off. This would need to bypassed whilst starting.

    I really don't know enough Cits FI.

    If there is no safety function a Bosch tachometic relay would be a good addition!

    Rob

    Teh furl pump connects to a relay and from there to the control unit then pump I believe. It does use a manifold pressure unit to tell the efi how much fuel to inject when the car is running and a full load switch, that's about it.

    I tried to start the car again, slight "fump" at the exhaust but didn't connect the fuel pump, connected the pump to inject but nothing. Have the charger on now, will wait a bit to get it up to power, maby the power is just too low.

    If the car finally runs I will make a plan and get that type of relay, i think it could be a better bet

    cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Ok now I am really thinking it's the ECU.
    When I dissconnect the pump and try to start the car It feels like the engine has almost life thump at the exhaust and the engine pulls deal like it's firing too advanced stopping the engine from turning, switch on to let the injectors inject petrol then it is running without that thump or anything, getting too much petrol? All the injectors opening simultaneously(I think so)= bad control box?

    I'm stumped and this being just about the only efi d in South Africa.... I'll email citroworld to find out if they have a controlbox

    cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneSoutAfrica View Post
    Ok now I am really thinking it's the ECU.
    When I dissconnect the pump and try to start the car It feels like the engine has almost life thump at the exhaust and the engine pulls deal like it's firing too advanced stopping the engine from turning, switch on to let the injectors inject petrol then it is running without that thump or anything, getting too much petrol? All the injectors opening simultaneously(I think so)= bad control box?

    I'm stumped and this being just about the only efi d in South Africa.... I'll email citroworld to find out if they have a controlbox

    cheers
    Corne
    Is the cold start injector jammed open and over richening the mixture?

    Where does the fuel relay get the coil feed from ?

    Can you post a cct diagram of the injection system?

  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    The old Djet works bacwards to the modern injection. ie: the calculator sends 12volts to the injectors (modern cars seem to have permanent 12volts at the injectors and the ECU earths them).

    Are the injectors themselves earthed?? If there not well earthed... it won't run. I found the injectors were all seized on mine (I freed them up with some WD40 and "massaged" the tip of them to get them working again).

    You have the fuel pump running, but do you have pressure at the injector rail ?. From memory you should have 28psi there.

    seeya,
    Shane L
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Hi everyone

    Ok When I switch on the ignition the fuel pump doesn't prime that 2 seconds or so, When I swing the engine the injectors open all fine. I am not sure about the cold start injector that could be over enriching the mixture. I have pressure at the fuel rail, the injectors do fire with a mist of fuel at each injector (checked them)

    Shane, the injectors earth at a central point onto the body, the earth runs from the main harnass plug that feeds the injectors with power and you hook up your water sensors too with this particular harnass, it this line the earth wire is included, they do have earth I mad *very* sure of it..

    My injectors were all sticky too, they work now, did the same as you.

    Robmac, I'll try and post part of the manual with diagrams I used

    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Does someone have a link to tony jackson's site? maby I can link the manual to this posts so you guys can see the layout I used to figure out the wiring.

    Thanks
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    No matter got it, but it's the whole file. Im not into computers soo much to do the finer things

    http://www.agua.nu/ds-files/tony-jac...0Injection.pdf

    look at page SPI82 and on

    Cheers
    Corne
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneSoutAfrica View Post
    No matter got it, but it's the whole file. Im not into computers soo much to do the finer things

    http://www.agua.nu/ds-files/tony-jac...0Injection.pdf

    look at page SPI82 and on

    Cheers
    Corne
    Crikey Corne that a site has a really fast connection speed - I downloaded the 10 meg manual in about 30 seconds.

    That 20 mbbs odd from an international site which is pretty darn good!

    I'll have a look tomorrow and try to make some suggestions.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Couldn't resist I've just had a look.


    TEST 1
    Turn ignition on
    Remove relay 20

    Put a shorting jumper across the relay contacts ie wires 33 & 28, pins 30/51 & 87
    Pump should run if NOT check for 12 v power on 30/51 (wire 33) or cable on 87 to fuel pump is intact (wire 28) -

    If Pump runs with this test OK move to Test 2

    TEST 2

    Turn ignition on
    Remove relay 20

    Put a meter (20v DC range) across pins 85 and 86 (26 =+ve, 19 =-ve))
    You should read approx 12vDC

    If not follow wires back to ECU and check connections/ wiring.

    ** Check loop wire 26 (this feeds +ve to the coil of pump relay when the main relay is energised)


    My feeling is

    You a have terminal in the wrong place in a relay socket
    OR
    A "loop point" in the wiring is open circuit or missing, ie where the power or earths daisy chain
    OR
    You have a dodgy connector, ie a connector is "pushing"out of a relay socket when you fit the relay
    OR
    A dodgy ECU connector
    or
    A faulty ECU (hopefully not but they can be fixed DJet uses discrete components & it's possibly an fuel pump relay switch transistor blown which should be obvious because it's black or blown)


    Most of this fault finding can be done point to point, with battery disconnected, using a multimeter on low ohms range to check for continuity.

    It's a very comprehensive manual and typically German easy and logical to follow.

    I have a full circuit diagram, but in pdf it's 900kb, too big for AF posting.

    If you send me a PM with your email, I'll send to you. Any good electronic techician should be able to repair and fault find the ECU. If it in fact that!
    Last edited by robmac; 22nd March 2011 at 10:46 PM.

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Thanks Robmac I will do the procedure this afternoon it's lunch time now. Checked the coldstart relay, nothing no spray nothing, fuel in the line but have to hook on the guage later and verify the fuel pressure..

    don't think there is a dodgt connection at the relay cause you have to manually connect each wire to the relay.

    Cheers
    Corne
    Last edited by CorneSoutAfrica; 23rd March 2011 at 01:12 AM.
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    We took out the duzzy and turned it by hand, the injectors do open. injector 1 and 3 open together and 2 and 4 open together.. That ok?

    Robmac did what you say, pump work when I put in a jumper and between pins 85 and 86 I get 11.38 volts
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

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    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    update!!

    She will almost almost run, she will run about half a second without the starter but as I put the plug for the fuel pump to the relay to pump petrol she stalls and the whole process starts again. It is as if she floods...

    Checking the petrol pressure just now, 2 bar exactly.
    Last edited by CorneSoutAfrica; 23rd March 2011 at 06:21 AM.
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneSoutAfrica View Post
    update!!

    She will almost almost run, she will run about half a second without the starter but as I put the plug for the fuel pump to the relay to pump petrol she stalls and the whole process starts again. It is as if she floods...

    Checking the petrol pressure just now, 2 bar exactly.

    Could plugging the fuel pump relay in be shorting or loading something? IE power is being removed.

    Sometimes the engine will run for a few seconds on the fuel injected by the cold start injector.

    At this stage Corne, you need makes friend with your multimeter and take some measurements. It may be a learning curve but it will speed up fault finding

  24. #24
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorneSoutAfrica View Post
    We took out the duzzy and turned it by hand, the injectors do open. injector 1 and 3 open together and 2 and 4 open together.. That ok?

    Robmac did what you say, pump work when I put in a jumper and between pins 85 and 86 I get 11.38 volts
    Hmm, it's starting to sound a little like mine. First thing ... Robs right, it sounds like it could be running on the cold start injector until it times out. Yes the injectors fire in pairs (that is why there is two contacts for the Dject in the dizzie rather than four). I'd be disconneting the fuel line feed to the cold start injector and plugging it's line. You see it could be the one flooding the engine. You don't actually need the cold start injector for the motor to start.

    When I finally got mine running, a pair of the injectors were constantly being ran flooding it. I pulled the calculator apart and did some basic testing. I hooked it up to a 12volt power supply on a desk and traced the power through. Replacing one of the capaciters fixed my problems on replacement. The computer in these old cars, is really an electronic calculator. It's made of entirely using "off the shelf" electronic components. You can repair it easily.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Nov 2010
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    South Africa
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    I removed the cold start injecter to see if it was the problem it was plugged in but the hole it went into was plugged up so it wasn't clost to the intake manifold.

    Me fixing the capacitor? I still want to use the ECU one day

    I got one from Citroworld which works, I'll rather wait for that ond and have this one fixed by someone who knows more than me.

    I forgot to mention the throttle switch, when moved, still doesn't let the injectors pulse though on certain occasions when I switch on the ignition I heard an injector buzz constantly till I moved the throttle a bit, it stopped then, happened about 3 times.

    I'll play around some more but the control unit is my main suspect

    cheers
    Corne
    Last edited by CorneSoutAfrica; 23rd March 2011 at 05:51 PM.
    1968 ID21 break
    1971 DS21 IE BVH Rouge de grenade (Madamoiselle Rouge)
    1974 DS Pallas Sable metalisse My first restoration (Edith) Now BVH
    1973 DS pallas Metallic red. "Rusty"

    1947 Traction Avant

    Modern

    2006 C4 VTS 180 Coupe

    What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?
    - Vincent van Gogh

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