CX prestige hydraulic clutch
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  1. #1
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Default CX prestige hydraulic clutch

    Hi All,

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    well SWMBO has said she wants to start driving the stinky old CX if she needs to.... So I'm again on the lookup for a CX prestige hydraulic clutch. All I'll need is the slave cylinder. The master can be purchased from CX Basis/western hemispheres and probably Andre Pol. I can do the hydralics and clutch pedal myself most likely.

    I just need that slave cylinder though ................... Anyone here ever wrecked a CX prestige with a manual gearbox?

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! ARCHRIVAL's Avatar
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    Have you thought about the slave cylinder from ds hydraulic and what does the c-matic use
    BX 16v 89, I Renault Floride 62, Volvo P1800 68, Aston Martin DB6 68, Daimler 250V8 68, Jaguar XJC 76, Falcon Ute XL 62, Falcon Ute XY 4WD, Jeep Grand Larado 03, Mazda 6 Wagon 05, inter 483 tractor 86, makita cordless drill CX TURBO its dented D Special 1 62 ID192000 Xantia V6 2000 Cadillac STS stolen by the princess,KANGA 720DL LOADER

  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    The clutch maybe similar to the SM ?? The Maserati with the LHM hydraulics also has it. It's not a "standard" hydraulic clutch (were talking Citroen at it's peak here). It taps into the high pressure hydraulics and uses them to do the "hard work" of dis-engaging the clutch... There is quite a lot of plumbing to be added in order to retro-fit one. The clutch pedal assmebly is also different.

    I'm not sure if it's similar to the DS BVH... This clutch will also work (but be much heavier) if there is no hydraulic pressure in the system.

    Ted Perkins has done a pretty good writeup on it:

    http://www.tedperkins.com/hydraulic_clutch.htm

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! ARCHRIVAL's Avatar
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    Geeze talk about complexity
    BX 16v 89, I Renault Floride 62, Volvo P1800 68, Aston Martin DB6 68, Daimler 250V8 68, Jaguar XJC 76, Falcon Ute XL 62, Falcon Ute XY 4WD, Jeep Grand Larado 03, Mazda 6 Wagon 05, inter 483 tractor 86, makita cordless drill CX TURBO its dented D Special 1 62 ID192000 Xantia V6 2000 Cadillac STS stolen by the princess,KANGA 720DL LOADER

  5. #5
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    It looks nothing like a DS BVH clutch cylinder.

    Roger

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Rob T's Avatar
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    Master cylinders do come up on eBay occasionally but I have never seen a slave cylinder for sale. I asked Peter Raffels about the slave cylinders. He says they are NOT the same as SM / Maserati ones.

    I did harbour ideas of making a slave cylinder - even started doing drawings. But it is a lot of work and the project didn't get far. It would require some high precision machining and honing and selection of the right materials for each component.

    If I was to do it now, I would be using a concentric slave cylinder. There are plenty available commercially and at reasonable prices. Commonly used in race cars and quite a few current production cars. A trip to your local clutch specialist should give you some clues on how best to achieve a simple install with commonly available parts. Unfortunately they will all be designed for brake fluid so the seals will not be compatible with LHM. Seals are likely to be made specially for these so it is not likely to be a simple matter of just replacing the seals.

    You COULD make your own concentric cylinder. They are pretty simple and there is a vast range of seals, wiper rings, back up rings, wear rings and O-rings available for hydraulic oil. Adding power assistance from the hydraulic system adds a whole level of complexity, but I doub't that you would actually NEED the power assistance. Although it does have a certain amount of nerdy citroenesque appeal...

    The simple solution would be to slavage an existing sytem from the wreckers and use it with brake fluid.

    The following links were some that I found tonight...

    Wilwood unit on eBay

    LUK unit

    A few photos on a british-cars.net

    RAM Clutches

    AP Racing

    GMP Racing in Melbourne
    Robert Thorne
    Brisbane
    Citroenless - for now...

  7. #7
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Thanks Rod,

    the willwood unit looks interesting, though I doubt it would fit .... and if it did, how would we fill the reseviour ?? ....

    I think I prefer the external slave cylinder for simplicity of install (and it keeps brake fluid out of your bell housing). I think the hydraulic clutches fitted to PSA era Citroens are just standard master/slave systems too. ie: NOT using LHM, most likely brake fluid.

    Do you know of any LHM citroens that use a hydraulic clutch ? It's such a shame we can't find a slave cylinder for the proper clutch setup

    I wonder what is different about the SM setup ?? I'm sure we could buy in SM slaves from the US ?

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger
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    Xantia CT Turbo and Activa use a hydraulic clutch and so do C5 manuals, but I believe they are sealed units and would use brake fluid. They are not powered units. The DS BVH cylinders are just a simply slave unit and controlled by the engagement control on the manifold.

  9. #9
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Thanks David,

    I was wondering about the SM unit as it appears to tap into the main hydraulics ... I've asked on the SM list about it. Even if it's nothing like the CX's, at least it'll use LHM and the main reseviours hydraulic fluid.

    Strangely enough I've possibly been guided to a source for the CX hydraulic clutch fitted to a prestige that's currently being wrecked. Someone else in kindly finding out for me... You see I don't speak the lingo to request it Fingers crossed, I may end up with a slave cylinder. Best case, master/slave and pedal. We'll see in time

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  10. #10
    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    I'm virtually certain that the SM is the same fitment as the CX. I seem to remember being told this some years ago, by a well known source of SM spare parts.

    I have right here in my bedroom a brand new CX clutch master cylinder, as I too am hoping to put a hydraulic clutch on my car...(when I get round to fixing it)
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

  11. #11
    Member Sturla's Avatar
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    I would keep looking for a CX slave cylinder. I would not think a SM slave cylinder much more common than a prestige one? I got hold of a complete set from a danish source several years ago for my -78 GTI that I am very slowly doing up. It cost me as much as the car but then again the car was not very expensive. The rubber boot of the SM slave is listed as the same part as the D slave (well, where I found it on the net), if that is correct then it is not the same slave, the CX slave boot is 50mm at the base, the D is 32 or close on that. I bought one, and it is too tight.
    -74 DS23 bvh, -78 CXgti, -85 CXgtiT1

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! John P's Avatar
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    Shane, even if CX Basis don't list the prestige slave cylinder it would still be worthwhile starting an e-mail conversation with Jochen Heusel about the issue as he's bound to have needed one at some time. If they are unobtainable, he would know if there was an alternative. Petermelb, president of CCCV, has a prestige and may be persuaded to at least photograph his or give you some dimensions.
    2006 C5 2.0 HDI estate - daily driver
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  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    well thanks to a very generous aussiefrogs member ( I'm not sure if they want to be named), this arrived earlier this week:



    yes that's a new clutch master cylinder.

    Today I had this arrive in the post from Germany.



    Many thanks to Carsten ( a member of the Citroen SM yahoogroups list), who arranged with a friend in Germany to send me the hydraulic clutch parts and handled communications (as he can speak english). A public thanks goes to JŁrgen for posting these parts to me all the way from Germany. I was a little concerned about transfering money into an international bank account.... However due to the honesty of fellow citroen owners it's arrived without a problem.



    interestingly the throwout level is cast.



    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails CX prestige hydraulic clutch-p1050320.jpg   CX prestige hydraulic clutch-p1050314.jpg   CX prestige hydraulic clutch-p1050319.jpg   CX prestige hydraulic clutch-p1050318.jpeg   CX prestige hydraulic clutch-p1050316.jpeg   CX prestige hydraulic clutch-p1050317.jpg  

    'Cit' homepage:
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Rob T's Avatar
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    Shame you aren't coming to Cit-In. I could measure it up in a few hours. A complete set of drawings might prove useful one day...
    Robert Thorne
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    Citroenless - for now...

  15. #15
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Rob,

    what would you like measured up?

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  16. #16
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Very impressive Shane. Lovely guy obviously.

    I don't recall seeing anything like that from the Chevron Downunder clearout FWIW.

    Good to see how Citroen have managed to keep the hydraulics simple and with a minimum of pipes and fittings!

    How does it work?

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
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  17. #17
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Very impressive Shane. Lovely guy obviously.

    I don't recall seeing anything like that from the Chevron Downunder clearout FWIW.

    Good to see how Citroen have managed to keep the hydraulics simple and with a minimum of pipes and fittings!

    How does it work?

    Cheers
    It's just a master/slave hydraulic clutch that replaces the cable. However being from the *proper* citroen era, the master acts on valving in the slave, allowing high pressure fluid from the main hydraulics to depress the cluch. ie: you only control the activation of the slave.... You don't actually apply the clutch directly (much like the brakes, where you only open a valve to allow high pressure into the braking system).

    All manual CX's should have been sold with this system when they had already developed it. Using the heavy cumbersome cable operated clutch when they had already designed and developed this system was crazy

    The clutch in the car at the moment is *very* hefty. It'll be finger light with this installed.


    seeya
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  18. #18
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    It's just a master/slave hydraulic clutch that replaces the cable. However being from the *proper* citroen era, the master acts on valving in the slave, allowing high pressure fluid from the main hydraulics to depress the cluch. ie: you only control the activation of the slave.... You don't actually apply the clutch directly (much like the brakes, where you only open a valve to allow high pressure into the braking system).

    All manual CX's should have been sold with this system when they had already developed it. Using the heavy cumbersome cable operated clutch when they had already designed and developed this system was crazy

    The clutch in the car at the moment is *very* hefty. It'll be finger light with this installed.


    seeya
    Shane L.
    Thanks Shane. I get it. Why indeed would they not have used it? Into the Peugeot era with money going to the 604 development (with far fewer sold) might explain it.

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  19. #19
    Tadpole
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    Default cool !

    nice item to add to a nice CX !

    I upgraded my GTi T2 with one, my series 1 Prestige already has it... ;-)

    you have the clutch pedal set, master cilinder behind the clutch pedal set, and the slave cilinder to dis/engage the clutch.
    do you have info on how to assemble ?
    haynes has some !

    it uses low pressure LHM from a return line, which is pressurized by the clutch pedal/master cilinder. this activates the slave cilinder by opening up a high pressure line which in turn moves the arm.
    really nifty setup !

    on your pictures the was a multiway connector....... not sure I had this part installed....
    you do need a T-connector somewhere to interconnect.
    let me know if you need info / pictures

  20. #20
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cx25gtit2 View Post
    nice item to add to a nice CX !

    I upgraded my GTi T2 with one, my series 1 Prestige already has it... ;-)

    you have the clutch pedal set, master cilinder behind the clutch pedal set, and the slave cilinder to dis/engage the clutch.
    do you have info on how to assemble ?
    haynes has some !

    it uses low pressure LHM from a return line, which is pressurized by the clutch pedal/master cilinder. this activates the slave cilinder by opening up a high pressure line which in turn moves the arm.
    really nifty setup !

    on your pictures the was a multiway connector....... not sure I had this part installed....
    you do need a T-connector somewhere to interconnect.
    let me know if you need info / pictures
    Thanks,

    he must have thought the safety valve was required. I'll probably just stick a 3way junction into the feed line to the front height corrector. If shouldn't matter where it's powered from, so I'll pick a 3.5mm line somewhere nearby. I'll need to find a bleeder for it too (possibly the front brakes on a DS will have an external bleeder I can use, I'll need to check).

    Teds pages have a good writeup on it. There is no information in the shop manuals I have here, so I'm surprised the haynes manual covers it!

    http://www.tedperkins.com/hydraulic_clutch.htm

    You just need the diagram to work out the connections:



    1: pressure line from the master cylinder
    5: High pressure line from hydraulic system
    "Vis de perge" : is the 3.5mm lines that goes to a bleeder nipple i'll need to source
    8: Low pressure return.

    The master cylinder just has standard connections. suction and discharge. I'll have to figure out how to attach the suction side to the LHM reseviour so that it's always immersed in LHM (the return line connections could possibly be into air inside the reseviour ). Where does the suction line from the master cylinder attach on your CX's ?

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  21. #21
    Tadpole
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    Hello Shane,

    Teds internet page is very informative indeed !

    in my T2 there was a diameter difference somewhere in the high pressure connections. don't remember where, but that was an easy fix in my hydraulically experienced garage, so that shouldn't be a problem for you.

    the suction line going to the master cylinder comes from a T-connection, which is just interconnected on large LHM return line.
    in my Prestige there is a factory return line installed with a T connector. works like a charm! like a hot knife through butter ;-)

    in my T2 perhaps the return line that was cut to add the T is slightly smaller in diameter, so not a lot of return flow of LHM. when I press the clutch a few times, it is probably low on LHM, and then pressing the clutch requires more force.... I know this happens, so I am not in a hurry to change this (but may do so). so do use a large return line though ! then it shouldn't be a problem !

    I just have this one close by on my T2:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5251750326/
    need more pictures ??

    Jim


    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Thanks,

    he must have thought the safety valve was required. I'll probably just stick a 3way junction into the feed line to the front height corrector. If shouldn't matter where it's powered from, so I'll pick a 3.5mm line somewhere nearby. I'll need to find a bleeder for it too (possibly the front brakes on a DS will have an external bleeder I can use, I'll need to check).

    Teds pages have a good writeup on it. There is no information in the shop manuals I have here, so I'm surprised the haynes manual covers it!

    http://www.tedperkins.com/hydraulic_clutch.htm

    You just need the diagram to work out the connections:



    1: pressure line from the master cylinder
    5: High pressure line from hydraulic system
    "Vis de perge" : is the 3.5mm lines that goes to a bleeder nipple i'll need to source
    8: Low pressure return.

    The master cylinder just has standard connections. suction and discharge. I'll have to figure out how to attach the suction side to the LHM reseviour so that it's always immersed in LHM (the return line connections could possibly be into air inside the reseviour ). Where does the suction line from the master cylinder attach on your CX's ?

    seeya,
    Shane L.

  22. #22
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    well fitting that clutch is straight forward ...................... Other than finding it's 4.5mm lines not 3.5 ......arrrrrhhhhhhh I have a 3.5mm bubble flare tool and heaps of joiners off cars, but nothing for 4.5mm

    You just unbolt the cable, drop the bracket off, pull the throwout lever off the clutch and bolt the slave and cast lever in place.




    the master bolts up using the same mounting holes as the cable bracket



    The slave bolts up to the cable retainers. The bleed screw I was missing, however I found the bleeder from the daravi controller fitted.



    Adding the lines was quite problematic. You see I was expecting 3.5mm lines. I do however have quite a few lines I have pulled from cars over the years, so I just used "pre-existing" lengths for the master -> slave. The high pressure connection onto the slave was huge problem. How the hell do I go from 3.5mm to 4.5mm ??? There is not one single 'T' piece/connector anywhere on any car I can find to allow me to do this. In desperation I fitted a brake accumulator "base" from the aussie sold CX (it has a 3.5 and 4.5mm connection).



    This mess is *just* to convert from 4.5 to 3.5mm lines ... sigh....




    It was a [email protected] of a thing to bleed. I ended up plugging line to the master cylinders return, fitting a funnel and holding it up high while I pumped the clutch.



    I grabbed the high pressure from the priority valves feed to the rear suspension (that way the clutch has a low priority).

    I found the clutch now worked, but was incredibly heavy. A good 50% heavier than the cable clutch ( SWMBO could easily stand on the peddle and not depress it ).

    I found there was no fluid at the slaves high pressure line .... The brake accumulator base must have a one way valve in it



    Desperation .... my 3.5mm to 4.5mm 'T' piece. Yes that's a 4.5mm line joiner welded to a 3.5mm 'T' piece

    On trying the clutch again .... bugger it, now there's nothing there Then I tried engaging a gear and found the clutch *is* working...... It's just so bloody light, it feels like there is nothing connected to the pedal




    I just need to run the return lines and tdiy up/contain the added highpressure lines now... Damn that's one light clutch . Now one thing I noticed when I pulled the pedal assembly from the car is .......................... CITROEN ... WHERE ARE MY OVERCENTER SPRINGS This car was made just after Poogoe took over the Citroen range.... They must have deleted the bloody overcenter springs to save 15cents a car Little wonder the clutch is so bloody heavy in the petrol turbo models that have a much heavier pressure plate and no overcenter springs

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails CX prestige hydraulic clutch-p1050467.jpeg   CX prestige hydraulic clutch-p1050466.jpeg   CX prestige hydraulic clutch-p1050465.jpeg   CX prestige hydraulic clutch-p1050457.jpg   CX prestige hydraulic clutch-p1050459.jpg   CX prestige hydraulic clutch-p1050453.jpg  

    CX prestige hydraulic clutch-p1050462.jpg   CX prestige hydraulic clutch-p1050464.jpg  
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  23. #23
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    For anyone reading this in the future that's attempting to peform this conversion. Someone has just said "why didn't you tap out the hyraulic 'T' peices to take the larger pipe".

    I did try this, I tapped the M8 x 1.25 3.5 mm pipe fitting out to M9 x 1.25 (the 4mm pipe fitting), however the depth wasn't there to take the larger pipe. I doubt you could drill the joiners to a greater depth and keep the correct profile at the bottom of the hole so the hose seal will work. It's this "trashed" 3 way union I then welded the 4.5mm pipe joiner too

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  24. #24
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    I tried to cobble a return line for the clutch yesterday. No matter what I did it kept blowing any connections apart when you release the clutch. The reason is it expells the slave cylinder full of LHM each time the clutch is dis-engaged.

    I have been chatting to Ted via email. He said the master cylinder is plumbed to the same return line as the slave. It all makes sense now, I couldn't understand how the master cylinder worked when plumbed to the return circuit. You see it needs to always have LHM at it's inlet, so if it needs to suck in LHM, there is some available (otherwise it's sucking air, then the clutch wouldnt' work). This is a typically elegant yet simple solution Citroen have used. By plumbing the master cylinders return into the slaves return, each time you release the clutch a surge of LHM will flood the return lines filling the master cylinders feed line (as it's lower than the reseviour).

    I grabbed some fuel line today, I'll need to run a dedicated return line back to the reseviour (to avoid it blowing apart under the quantity of fluid being returned in one "spurt"), I'll 'T' it over the master just below reseviour height. I'm glad I worked that one out, it would have been frustrating if the randomly lost prime in the master -> slave circuit

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  25. #25
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
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    I'm sure people are sick to death of this one coming back to the top of the forum. Just a quick review.

    Clutch action ... the throw is now about 2inches, the clutch is nice and progressive. You can depress the pedal to the floor with a couple of fingers.

    Basically it's how the car should have always been. the clutch now matches the steering, brakes and suspension for ease of use and effort involved and sensitivity.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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