Citroen C5 202 Antipollution/catalytic converter
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Thread: Citroen C5 202 Antipollution/catalytic converter

  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default Citroen C5 202 Antipollution/catalytic converter

    Hey, Have a Citroen C5 V6 2002 model. The ECU is displaying Antipollution/ Catalytic converter fault. Have been to my local mechanic, he does not know much about Citroen's but he did check the the ECU the fault codes that came up were:
    P1359
    P0300
    P0301
    P0302
    P0303

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    Only had the car a few months, any ideas what could be causing this fault. Is this something only a dealer could fix?

    Any help would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger
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    I think these are misfire fault codes. Check for failing coils, blocked catalyst and possibly air leaks where the inlet manifold bolts down - it can distort slightly.

    Edit: You don't have to replace all the coils at once and you can mix the Sagem type with the later Delphi type coils. However, if you are replacing any rear coils, it may be sensible to replace the three of them with Delphi type coils as you need to remove the black plastic manifold to change one or three of them. Front coils are easier to get at. Keep any known good coils removed as spares in the boot.

    Are you running it on normal unleaded? Use 95 or better. E10 is normally below 95.
    Last edited by David S; 3rd March 2011 at 01:13 AM.

  3. #3
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Yeah, it sounds like the coil packs for cylinders 1-3 may be dodgy - not an uncommon feature of a PSA V6, unfortunately.

    P1359 is (I think) a CitroŽn-specific "Ignition Coil 3 Control short circuit to +" and the others are all generic OBDII codes relating to misfiring on cyl 1, 2 and 3, as listed here:

    Generic OBDII codes
    Regards,

    Simon

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    Hey thanks, Are they serious faults? Have been running on 98 as was unsure of what octane to use, just recently noticed on the fuel cap it said to use not below 95 so the last time i filled up i put 95 in.

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    You need to address these faults or you will likely find yourself stuck one day. The V6 doesn't run very happily on 5 cylinders or less and will shudder quite badly at about 70K in my experience. If it's not misfiring at present, then there could well be some other problem brewing. It would be a good idea to see whether the engine software has ever been upgraded.

    Did the car come with a good service history?

    Edit: As a general comment: The C5 V6 is often overlooked in the used market, but it offers a lot of equipment and comfort for the money - if you don't buy too cheaply. With the V6, you also get the HID headlamps, which are a real improvement over the regular halogens. This example from the classified could be quite good value for someone:
    FS:[SYD] 2003 C5 V6, 140ks
    Last edited by David S; 3rd March 2011 at 07:25 PM.

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    Yea the car came with log books, all servicing has been done and stamped in log book by a authorised Citroen dealer up to 80,000 and i just had it service for 90,000 in January at a Citroen dealer. I have a service record that came with the car with the dealer sating " Replace auto ECU with upgraded software" dunno if that means the engine software has been upgraded.

    Have noticed the shuddering last night when over 70km/hr. Seem fine for a while but after the engine heats up it starts. Have booked it to go into the dealer service center on Monday.

  7. #7
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    That upgraded auto ECU comment is a positive and the engine software would have been updated to be compatible.

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    I have similar symptoms. My C5 is a 2004 V6 with 110 000 km. Had all coils and manifold seal replaced about 6 months ago, apparently curing its intermittent misfiring. The symptoms would generally commence on startup and continue throughout that journey. Suspect only one cylinder at a time, but worst cases seemed to be two.
    The problem reappeared this week, and the car is currently in Citroen Hospital being diagnosed. Again it appears on startup and persists for that trip. (Next few trips may be trouble-free). Fault message display reads "anti pollution fault" followed by "catalytic converter fault". Occasionally the continuous fuel consumption reading locks on --/-. This tends to be associated with worse misfiring.
    Question if I may: The diagnostic system logs faults, but are they in sequence and are they time & date coded? Also, if coils fire correctly but combustion fails (eg due to fouled plug or unsuccessful injection) presumably no electrical fault is logged, but a sensor may still log an a/p and/or c/c fault?
    Thanks.

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    UPDATE on troublesome symptoms:
    The C5 has had episodes of excellent running, but some underlying fault persists. Failure of brake boost led to replacement of booster, but has recurred recently. Problem disappeared after switching off engine and restarting. Intermittently, engine power is lost almost totally and only a crawl is possible. Latest occurrence of this was when cruising at 60 km/hr. Switch off and restart eliminated the symptoms. I am convinced all symptoms have a common underlying cause.
    Sadly this particular car has become the most unreliable vehicle of any make I have ever owned or driven. When it works it's delightful, but my confidence in its reliability has reached rock bottom. The sophisticated Citroen diagnostics seem quite incapable of capturing symptom patterns leading to swift and effective diagnosis.

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    Considering the garbage fuel now being imported to Australia and having ethanol etc added just to get it to run may be a major cause in causing the misfiring in this engine as I had similar problems in my V6 Magna switched to premium unleaded problem solved but found it inadvisable to use shell premium as it proved to have bad additives for the engine life. But solved all problems by buying a C4 grand Picasso Diesel just need to buy only from BP which seems to have the best quality Diesel. if your diesel is not a blue tinge then its not good

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkelly View Post
    uestion if I may: The diagnostic system logs faults, but are they in sequence and are they time & date coded? Also, if coils fire correctly but combustion fails (eg due to fouled plug or unsuccessful injection) presumably no electrical fault is logged, but a sensor may still log an a/p and/or c/c fault?
    Thanks.
    Depending on the fault, the fault log will record the time, km and other information the ECU has been coded to log when each fault, or fault condition, appears, and in some cases disappears. So, they can be retrieved in date/time order and you may get the same fault logged repeatedly over time alhough the log has a finite size. You do have to remember that many fault codes result from some other root fault and that some are 'phantom' or spurious faults that nobody would become very excited about. Some conditions give rise to a fault code, but also a downgrade mode in other areas and systems. For example, perhaps certain problems with the diesel particle filter system might cause the cruise control, among other things, to be disabled as part of a service downgrade. The cruise control dropping out would not be the root problem, although it's what the driver might notice most.

    The ECU is capable of shutting down ignition on a cylinder where it finds a fault. You can sometimes get intermittent 'phantom' coil faults that can be hard to tie down. Early V6's apparently had software that was quite sensitive in some situations, sometimes resulting in 'phantom' faults and misfires. I'm sure your C5 would have had the engine software upgraded long ago, but there's obviously some stramge issue that's proving hard to resolve.

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    I have a C4 that had a coil pack failure just recently with lots of the same codes and problems with antipolltion and cat faults. Then a dead misfire

    Rather than taking it to the dealer I replaced the coil pack and plugs myself. now all is well

    I NOTE the vehicle supposdly had the plugs checked at the relative 60K and previuos services

    But when I replaced them the gap was off spec by a sizeable difference.

    I wonder what effect this would have on the col pack and ECU sensors ??????

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Depending on the fault, the fault log will record the time, km and other information the ECU has been coded to log when each fault, or fault condition, appears, and in some cases disappears. So, they can be retrieved in date/time order and you may get the same fault logged repeatedly over time alhough the log has a finite size.
    Thanks David. This is extremely helpful in my discussion with service agent (experienced Sydney dealer). If time & km have been logged for most recent fault(s), it should be possible to judge if the faults are independent or causally related. I deplore "diagnosis by substitution" for intermittent faults of any kind. If the data are there in the fault log, they need to be extracted and used to refine the diagnosis.
    Cheers. Michael

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    Thanks everyone.
    Re fuel type, I have used only 95/98 (usually Mobil) since buying the car in Dec 2009. Have taken it from 80 kkm to 120 kkm since then.
    Re plugs & coils, all have now been replaced and I have confidence that all physical work and replacement parts are to the required standard. I am less confident that all dots have been joined diagnostically, but I am not being charged for experimental time.

    I hope that patience and skill will soon get to the bottom of the problem - as you can imagine, my present confidence in the car when pressing either accelerator or brake is dwindling!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkelly View Post
    Thanks everyone.
    Re fuel type, I have used only 95/98 (usually Mobil) since buying the car in Dec 2009. Have taken it from 80 kkm to 120 kkm since then.
    Re plugs & coils, all have now been replaced and I have confidence that all physical work and replacement parts are to the required standard. I am less confident that all dots have been joined diagnostically, but I am not being charged for experimental time.

    I hope that patience and skill will soon get to the bottom of the problem - as you can imagine, my present confidence in the car when pressing either accelerator or brake is dwindling!
    Best of luck. Do the doctors say they get patients like this often?

    It is puzzling that most of these devices seem to behave well - touch wood we've three PSA products, none younger than 15 and never ever have had an electrical problem like what you describe. I shouldn't have said that. But then your horror story - I don't have time for that sort of nonsense and my old Renaults are much more reliable.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    The fault log will be useful, but don't read too much into it in isolation. Not every problem results in a fault anyway. It can help the technician, but you are really better off reyling upon the opinion of an experienced technician / dealer when it comes to interpreting it. It's probably proving to be a difficult problem to pin down, especially so if it's intermittent.

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    David, I have suggested to the dealer that they try to simulate the fault, by hooking up a data logger and then "interfering" with various systems until they can capture 1 or more of the faults. The loss of brake boost seems to me to offer the greatest potential for simulation, since there must be a rather limited number of things that could cause it with the engine apparently running "normally".

    Do you know if Citroen have an internal dealer-to-dealer "help network" for troublesome faults? There must be tens of thousands of V6 petrol C5s around the world (or is that a wrong assumption?).

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    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkelly View Post
    The loss of brake boost seems to me to offer the greatest potential for simulation, since there must be a rather limited number of things that could cause it with the engine apparently running "normally".
    As it's based almost purely on manifold pressure, surely "loss of brake boost" means either a significant inlet manifold leak or a poorly-running engine.
    Regards,

    Simon

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    Quote Originally Posted by SLC206 View Post
    As it's based almost purely on manifold pressure, surely "loss of brake boost" means either a significant inlet manifold leak or a poorly-running engine.
    Thanks SLC206. The intermittent nature of this symptom - first time present for 12 hours with multiple engine restarts, then vanished completely, second time present for 30 secs, then vanished when restarting - is the puzzling phenomenon. Is an intermittent major manifold leak possible? Or, is there any engine system that monitors, regulates or dumps manifold pressure under any situation? I am discounting a problem with the booster itself as it was replaced between the 2 incidents.

    Also of interest is that during the first episode of brake boost loss, engine performance was essentially normal, but on the second occasion, roughness preceded the brief loss of boost.
    Last edited by mkelly; 4th August 2011 at 05:26 PM.

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    Update on the peculiar C5 symptoms:

    The car spent 2 weeks in Citroen Hospital with injection harness being fingered as the culprit. It's been replaced and thoroughly road tested (about 500 km).

    24 hours after pickup I get the same symptoms: rough idle, anti-pollution fault and no brake boost.

    It's been suggested that some C4s suffer from "left foot braking syndrome" - some confusion of the engine management software with unexpected pedal actions. Whilst mine is a C5, and I don't routinely left foot brake, I do so when manoeuvring in tight spaces. I also tend to start automatics with my foot on the brake (where it has to be anyway to release the transmission from park). Does anyone know of any potential consequences of these actions for C5s?

    Thanks.

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    Hi mkelly,

    My 2007 C5 2.2 Hdi responds to left foot braking eg at intersections with a two second pause, a "beep", and the message "engine management system faulty". Does not sound like what you are experiencing.
    Has never happened again now that I keep the left foot anchored to the rest pedal.

    Never happened with my 2003 C5 Hdi, though.

    Perhaps this snippet of info may help in some way.

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    Thanks Rossie. Hard to say if it's related or not, but I guess we can conclude that certain pedal combination on some models may "confuse" the EMS software. The dealer has assured me that my habit of starting with my foot on the brake is quite okay.

    Today's experience was scary, although happening only at low speed. First incident was sudden engine cutout while moving away from a petrol station. Restarting caused the engine to idle for about 5 seconds and then cut out again After 4 switch offs and restarts the fault disappeared.

    Second incident was at low speed in a carpark, when the car screeched to a halt all by itself when the transmission shifted from 1 to 2. This happened even when selected manually, but I couldn't readily tell whether it was brake actuation (eg by the stability system) or transmission lockup.

    Back to the drawing board unfortunately.
    Last edited by mkelly; 22nd August 2011 at 09:50 PM. Reason: extra information

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    Does anyone know of any Citroen technical/service forums? Haven't had much success finding any on the net. Presumably there are troubleshooting channels within the Citroen dealer network, but they wouldn't be visible to the public.

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    The UK citroen site has a lot more experience with C5s. I have been looking for a solution to a diesel problem of a similar nature and found quite a useful discussion on teh various things they have tried.

    Try this:
    http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/ and somewhere in there you will find a section on Citroen/C5

    Best of luck, Erik

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    Thanks Erik. Found a couple of promising leads there just now.
    Much appreciated. Michael

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