1966 DS19 Pallas Generator Fault
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  1. #1
    Member knipdlo's Avatar
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    Default 1966 DS19 Pallas Generator Fault

    Hi all, this is my first post here so I should start by introducing myself- I'm Tim and I am the proud new owner of a 1966 DS19 Pallas, I'm currently in Los Angeles, CA.

    I recently began having a charge issue once in a while with my car, I've since replaced the old battery with a new unit, and replaced the original voltage regulator with a NOS unit that came with the car (so should be working good). Yesterday the car began acting strange again, starting with a slow crank. I ran the car for a few minutes until it was fully warmed up, at various engine speeds to try to charge the battery a little. I shut it off, and later found it was too dead to start the engine. I started it with the crank and drove it back to the parts store intending to get a new battery. When I got there I tested the battery and found it at 12.5-7v the car cranked easily and all electrical accessories worked fine. I drove the car back home, and on the way noticed the generator light would flicker when it would go out.. (see videos below)

    I'm not really sure where to go with this, I believe the Gen might have been rebuilt recently and I think the brushes look ok? but I haven't had it out or apart at all..

    Another thing, the voltage at the battery (even in the charged state at the auto parts store) would only increase when the engine was revved excessively, say 2500RPM or more! even though the light on the dash goes out at about 1200/1500RPM.. So even with the gen light out the battery only has 12.5-7v, then when the R's hit around 2500/3000+ (I don't have a tach) it would climb to 13.5-7v..

    videos:
    Normal/Cold: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUZQzYl5Cbc
    Discharged/Hot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0pqoozbB6s

    Same car, same location- 10 or so minutes apart

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    Thanks in advance for the ideas or help!

    Tim

  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Being a generator it'll have brushes right?? (generators are waaayyy before my time). I'm betting the brushes are just worn out.... nothing cheaper and easier to replace than brushes

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  3. #3
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Hi Tim, the other fellow you might want to make acquaintance with, is Bill (aka Hotrodelectric) who's a CitroŽn tragic in Sandy Ego. A straight shooter, he may well have useful input.

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Generator probably, voltage regulator or wiring problem.

    Excessive revs to maintain generator output indicates a gen. problem.

    To check place a voltmeter across the battery terminals and check the voltage with nothing running. Then start the motor and check the readings.

    Stationary 12v or thereabouts is good start, and idle less than this, fast idle and above should be up to 13 plus volts.

    Suggest you replace the current regulator with the previous item - a new unit does not guarantee no problems. Try it and see.

    Best of luck,

    Fento

  5. #5
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Hi Tim, the other fellow you might want to make acquaintance with, is Bill (aka Hotrodelectric) who's a CitroŽn tragic in Sandy Ego. A straight shooter, he may well have useful input.
    That's a nice introduction, Adam- thank you!

    Tim- about the voltage regulator you installed. Was it a Paris Rhone/Ducellier unit, or a 'generic'? You do have it hooked up correctly (an easy mistake to make)? Also, there has been a couple of mentions of brushes. It's an easy check, but if the generator was rebuilt, they should be new. There is a possibility they're wrong, perhaps too short. There may also be a break in the wiring, although that problem showed up later in force on the 68- early 70 D.

    The All French and Italian Show is at Woodley Park (just off of Victory Ave. and the 405) this coming Sunday. Even if you don't bring your car, come on down- we can talk about your car at length there.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  6. #6
    Member knipdlo's Avatar
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    Thank you all for the replies,

    the regulator I used was a NOS unit identical to the one i removed, with the exception of the case color (new is goldish old was black) same markings except new one is a 22amp and the old was a 30 or 33 I think. I may swap them back, but the symptom is the same- mostly a flickering generator light under certain conditions.

    I took photos of the old regulator wiring before I removed it, so that is a non issue I think..

    I've heard a lot about the show and I'd love to go- but I was hoping to head home (NY) today until this issue cropped up.. as I'm staying on a friend's couch.. do you have any brushes/armature for this? I'm having trouble finding anyone around here that does..

    OR if you have a good generator, I'd be interested in purchasing it!

    thanks,
    Tim

  7. #7
    Member knipdlo's Avatar
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    Update:

    I was getting suspicious of the Autozone battery.. so I brought it back and had it tested- BAD, tested again- BAD. I told the guy I wasn't about to chance a third bad autozone battery, so could I please get a refund. He made some bad noise but finally I got it refunded, and replaced it with a new Interstate (should have done this from the start) runs perfect now, holds strong at almost 13v when idling.. Gen prob needs a rebuild sometime soon.. but at least it doesn't dive to 6v when its running with only the coil for draw..

    Also checked again for draw when the car is off- nothing

    Seems like its sort of sorted for the moment.. But I'm going to look into regulator and generator testing and updates/ and also maybe someday an alternator swap out- does anyone have any insight on that process??

    Thanks again, and happy to have found a helpful bunch of folks online!
    Tim

  8. #8
    Member knipdlo's Avatar
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    Also Hotrodelectric I don't know if you remember me but I met you at the Ventura Rendezvous, I was the young kid with the gold BMW wagon, we rode over to the Mullin museum if I recall..

    Thanks for the help! I still have your card!
    T

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    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    I know Hotrodelectric personally.
    He knows your car personally.
    You missed him by moments last night as he passed through your area.

    Frank

  10. #10
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knipdlo View Post
    Also Hotrodelectric I don't know if you remember me but I met you at the Ventura Rendezvous, I was the young kid with the gold BMW wagon, we rode over to the Mullin museum if I recall..

    Thanks for the help! I still have your card!
    T
    Oh, Lord yes, I remember now. Yah- we all went over in Steve Hammond's D. I spoke to DaffyDuck about your car earlier this afternoon, come to find out I knew the car and the PO. We were talking about your problem, and one other thing that occured to me was ensure that the negative battery cable was tight at both ends- battery and engine block.

    For sure a bad battery will cause your problem. My clue should have been AutoZone.

    I was in the Echo Park neighborhood of Los Angeles during the past week wiring up a 69 ID for a friend and helping him get his car ready for Woodley Park.

    An alternator conversion isn't difficult, especially with a 2-wire one like a Delcotron SI10 (my favorite for general conversions), or any number of others. You certainly don't need a lot in the way of output. The only real limitation is how you fit it underhood. Bosch seems to be a favorite here, but the ones normally talked about on this board are not easily available in the US.

    I know Hotrodelectric personally.
    He knows your car personally.
    You missed him by moments last night as he passed through your area.
    I see you did manage to get signed on
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  11. #11
    Member knipdlo's Avatar
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    Yup, that'd be me!

    Great car, great PO.. Wish I had met him..

    I'm trying to find a way to stick around long enough to go to the FR/IT show..

    I'm sure in the future I will look closer at my options for alternators, and maybe if I make it to the show we'll chat about how all of that would work..

    thanks again for the replies!
    T
    1966 CitroŽn DS19 Pallas, 1969 Ford F100, 1959 Austin Healey Frogeye Sprite, 1995 Ford Mustang GT 5.0 Convertible

    And remember, if the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy!

    The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself..

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    The car is half way across the USA today, running on the VR that was in the car when he bought it, and doing fine. The NOS part from the box crapped out in Utah.

  13. #13
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    The car is half way across the USA today, running on the VR that was in the car when he bought it, and doing fine. The NOS part from the box crapped out in Utah.
    Why does that not surprise me...
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Fascinating to follow your exploits, fellas, as someone who finds himself bunkered up in either the Del Amo Marriott or the Hilton near that huge shopping mall at Costa Mesa sometimes and some names being familiar I would be tickled to 'bump' into a D person in LA. I do remember seeing 2 Ds at a garage on PCH/Torrance area in the early 90s.Trouble is from now till mid Feb I don't know when I'll be there next.Aaaahh!
    Regards
    Lou

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loudel View Post
    Fascinating to follow your exploits, fellas, as someone who finds himself bunkered up in either the Del Amo Marriott or the Hilton near that huge shopping mall at Costa Mesa sometimes and some names being familiar I would be tickled to 'bump' into a D person in LA. I do remember seeing 2 Ds at a garage on PCH/Torrance area in the early 90s.Trouble is from now till mid Feb I don't know when I'll be there next.Aaaahh!
    Regards
    Lou
    Lou, drop either me or DaffyDuck a PM, we can give you directions to the next LA club meeting., which will be the annual Christmas party at the Harpers in Sunland (think northern LA proper). We also have an exents calender at our wesite Socalcitroen.com. Next year's calender should be up shortly.

    If you want to meet up with a few Citroen tragics in the off time, I'm sure something can be arranged with little fuss.

    Matter of fact, anyone here is invited to our meetings. Trust me, you'd be an instant hit.



    Bill
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Bill, thanks for the invite. If I get a trip up your way I'll let someone know. Though I rely on public transport when in LA getting about is not too difficult just time consuming. I'd be tickled to attend one of your meetings.
    Regards all
    Lou

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    I was there at the show.
    It was great.

    The 66 DS19 lost a tire tube at the valve stem, so he put on the aged spare which didn't last too long. So he drove it on 3 wheels who knows how far now.



  18. #18
    Member knipdlo's Avatar
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    Well, I arrived in NY- DaffyDuck is correct.. Lost the 20A voltage regulator in the Mojave, at high noon.

    After that fix, everything was great until Tulsa where I have friends that I stayed with for a few days.. Pulled in and the tube stem was hissing.. Threw on the spare and drove carefully waiting for the new tube to come in.. then promptly blew out the 40 some odd year old Michelin spare tire.. at around 50 mph..

    Got a new tire in Tulsa, and got on my way.. got to around St. Louis, MO and found the fuel pump seemed to be failing (surging and bucking at high engine speed/more than 1/2 throttle) but I babied it into NY where it got a little worse and wouldn't go over 65 or 70mph.. I picked up some gas near my house last night (12 gal) and then I drove it last night to go to a friend's house and came home, parked it, and tried to start it this morning- fired right up like always and then stalled after about 30 seconds of running and wouldn't start.. went round and round with the ignition system and thinking I flooded it.. finally pulled the #1 plug and found it was dry and just lightly gray.. pulled the fuel line from the carby and it was dry.. cranked engine for about 8-10 seconds.. no fuel from the line..

    Hey, at least it happened in my driveway!

    and a couple pictures for your enjoyment..










    1966 CitroŽn DS19 Pallas, 1969 Ford F100, 1959 Austin Healey Frogeye Sprite, 1995 Ford Mustang GT 5.0 Convertible

    And remember, if the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy!

    The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself..

  19. #19
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Doubly cool! I didn't realise it was a black plate Cali car.

  20. #20
    Member knipdlo's Avatar
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    it was one of the best experiences of my life.. 3300 miles in a 66 Citroen..
    1966 CitroŽn DS19 Pallas, 1969 Ford F100, 1959 Austin Healey Frogeye Sprite, 1995 Ford Mustang GT 5.0 Convertible

    And remember, if the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy!

    The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself..

  21. #21
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Doubly cool! I didn't realise it was a black plate Cali car.
    IIRC, the PO (passed away only a little over a year ago) had the car from new. Daffy Duck knows the story better than I, maybe he'll elaborate.

    Quote Originally Posted by knipdlo View Post
    it was one of the best experiences of my life.. 3300 miles in a 66 Citroen..
    I was talking to Daffy about your car just a couple of hours ago. He mentioned you were having drivability problems, thinking it was the points. I guess we know now it was the fuel pump giving heartburn. A low pressure electric one is an easy hookup until you can rebuild the factory one. Also- on the subject of fuel, your car should have a Weber, which isn't as prone as the Solex, but carefully check the press-fit fuel inlet for the carb (that is, if Holmes didn't already make the pipe-fit fuel inlet mod). They're prone to loosening and eventually falling out, with disasterous results.

    The pics are terrific. Somewhere in the midwest (Tulsa, maybe?), I guess?
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knipdlo View Post
    it was one of the best experiences of my life.. 3300 miles in a 66 Citroen..
    Fabulous photos. Not too many Citroens through those parts......

    We recently drove from Phoenix to LA via Flagstaff, Las Vegas, Big Pine (then Sequoia and Yosemite) and down the coast to San Francisco, so I can understand the "feel" of your journey.

    FWIW I've had a couple of old Michelin tubes die at the valve stem, with the rubber losing its bond with the valve housing. I fear they were 30 years old, so think it best to keep to no more than 20 years for Michelin tubes....

    Keep enjoying it. They're not enjoyed if they just sit in the dark.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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  23. #23
    Member knipdlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    IIRC, the PO (passed away only a little over a year ago) had the car from new. Daffy Duck knows the story better than I, maybe he'll elaborate.
    Indeed its a HECK of a story, one that I am still learning about.. he truly loved this car his entire life.. it has been extremely well cared for in regards to mechanicals, but I'm going to do some cosmetics here very soon. He put money on the car at the 1965 Paris Motor Show, and it was delivered in LA on Feb 22, 1966. I have literally every paper from the initial deposit to the customs paperwork, to receipts from a year or so ago. I also have pictures he took at the time of delivery, with the car wearing its French plates (which I have the paperwork for also) and which the car still wears albiet faded under the California black plates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    I was talking to Daffy about your car just a couple of hours ago. He mentioned you were having drivability problems, thinking it was the points. I guess we know now it was the fuel pump giving heartburn. A low pressure electric one is an easy hookup until you can rebuild the factory one. Also- on the subject of fuel, your car should have a Weber, which isn't as prone as the Solex, but carefully check the press-fit fuel inlet for the carb (that is, if Holmes didn't already make the pipe-fit fuel inlet mod). They're prone to loosening and eventually falling out, with disasterous results.
    Holmes changed this I think? It has a banjo bolt style on it? with the hose attached to that fitting via hose clamp..

    I was thinking that too (re: electric pump) where would you suggest hooking up to?

    Who sells rebuild kits? Western Hemispheres? I'll ask Daffy about it too when I talk to him..

    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    The pics are terrific. Somewhere in the midwest (Tulsa, maybe?), I guess?
    Thanks, if I recall most are from between Albuquerque, NM and Amarillo, TX.


    Hotrodelectric! I've been meaning to ask- the clock was disconnected when I bought the car, and I don't see any hookups behind it that seem to go to it.. save for one green wire with a pin type connector- is that it?
    1966 CitroŽn DS19 Pallas, 1969 Ford F100, 1959 Austin Healey Frogeye Sprite, 1995 Ford Mustang GT 5.0 Convertible

    And remember, if the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy!

    The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself..

  24. #24
    Member knipdlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Keep enjoying it. They're not enjoyed if they just sit in the dark.
    Cheers
    Thanks for the comments on the photos..

    thats a TRUE quote! No car was ever engineered to sit around! And I'll NEVER own a trailer queen..
    1966 CitroŽn DS19 Pallas, 1969 Ford F100, 1959 Austin Healey Frogeye Sprite, 1995 Ford Mustang GT 5.0 Convertible

    And remember, if the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy!

    The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself..

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    Not just black plate.
    Original owner.
    The title was recently signed for the first time in history.
    The car is on LHM, has a fanstastic service record dating back to 1966, and no accident history showing in the COMPLETE file folder.

    I have driven the car aplenty over the years, and it is the real deal.
    Right down to the Michies.

    BTW, Tim bought it, and drove it about 5000 miles since.
    I serviced it with him maybe 2 weeks ago.
    He didn't tell me he was going to cross the country with it. I told him he could, and it would, but ordirnarily I toss in spare spare tires and such when I know a car is going to go so far so soon.


    Regards.

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