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Thread: aussie built D's

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    aussie built D's

    has anyone compiled a register, or recorded chassis/engine number of D's built in Australia ? According to most books, there are no official records, is it possible to try to retrospectively preserve some production infornmation ? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

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  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Peter,

    the club has records of a lot of the Cit's owned by members. Aussie 'D's would be an interesting one to find out. There are so many of them stashed in sheds/paddocks/barns... Many of them probably rusted away & forgotton.

    Whenever you need encoragement to get yours going just drool over the pictures of Ferdi's car in the original DS for a while

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  3. #3
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    Who was it that assembled the ID's in AUS? Continental and General runs in my mind, but Bill Buckle (the Goggomobil Dart manufacturer) seems to stick in my mind too.

    Simon
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  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
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    According to John Reynolds book, the D's were assembled at West Heidelberg in Melbourne between 1961 and 1966 by Continental and General Co Pty Ltd. They produced an estimated 1400 cars, to french specification with RHD and some other mods.
    Does anyone know if Bill Buckle was involved in this Continental and General Co ?

  5. #5
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    was there different trim levels with the ID19's sold in Australia. The several I've seen have had two tone vynal interior, mine has single tone vynal interior, door trims with big foam handles (ie: the later pallas arm rests on the door trims).

    Being a 63 it appears to have mirrored french production by having the 2nd front & high pressure 'button' brakes.

    Incedently, anyone have a rusted out ID they are willing to part with. I need some spare parts, so would like to find a really, really rusty parts car (ie: something that's to far gone to be restored.).

    .

    seeya,
    Shane L
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts dogboy's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,
    I seem to remember Bill Buckle was involved in the early years....before continental...
    will look at my books tonight....
    Cheers
    Andrew
    Rev. Dogboy


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  7. #7
    Simon's Avatar
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    Actually that would be the connection, Bill Buckle was a Citroen dealer in the 1950's. His Goggomobil and kit car production was based in Sydney, so he wouldn't have been involved with Continental and General.
    1963 Renault R4 Van
    1964 Renault R4
    1967 Volkswagen 1300 Deluxe
    1969 Renault 8 Gordini 1300
    2002 Land Rover Defender Td5 130 - ex-CFA Region 4
    2005 Renaultsport Clio 182 Cup

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger!
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    thanks shane, would you be able to tell me what the body number and series of your car is ?

    As you say your car is a 1963 model with button brake pedal, this is different from the information in Reynolds book which says that the pendant pedal was repalced by a button in 1965. The 1962 car pictured in the book has a pendent pedal. The plot thickens .....

    Also it would appear that the oil bath air cleaner may have been fitted for "down under". The early D's i had in NZ were fitted with this type, as is a 1960 safari sold in australia. The safari seems to be a slough built import.

  9. #9
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Peter,

    hmm, I thought all the CKD kits out of france exactly mirrored french ID production. I'll have to look into, my cars been 'registered' as a 63 model according to all the rego labels, but is there a build date anywhere on the car.

    Incedently, if you want to see some more 'closeup' photos of my car, just look on this site...

    <a href="http://www.aussiefrogs.com/shane" target="_blank">Citroen Workshop</a>

    Yeah, Gibgib hosts my Citroen webpage. I'll find out the build number on my car for you, though it probably won't be until Monday that I'll post it. I'm off the the Arse end of the Planet again this weekend (Eoyon )

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger!
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    all my info so far has been taken from Reynolds book, which may or be be 100% correct, so it is is interesting to compare the experts with actual cars. As with all Citroens, there is probably no "standard" cars, or much consistency !

  11. #11
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    OK

    my chassis # is 93699, but that's not all. this is on a 'buckle motors' william st sydney plate thats riveted over the factory plate. I'll remove that when i get a chance & see what the factory plate says...

    shane l
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger!
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    thanks shane, your chassis number appears to be in a different sequence to the car shown in Reynolds book, maybe the mumber under the plate will shed some light on this.

    If anyone else would like to send me the chassis number and series number of aussie or slough built D's to add to the list, this would be appreciated. If you don't want to post it here, please email me at [email protected]

    It doesn't matter if the car is running, or stored in a shed or paddock, or is a wreck, please send me the numbers.

    Cheers Peter.

  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Peter,

    try this guy, Bob Dirks, he has a paddock full of Slough & aussie built ID's (& DS's).

    Drop him an email to [email protected]

    I'm sure he'll help you out. Well he covers about 30,000miles a year in a 57 slough built DS19, so I guess he must like the oldies

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Forgot to add,

    you can check out his latest cars here (he's just got them)... Drrroooolllll very, very early DS's....

    <a href="http://www.aussiefrogs.com/shane/bobscars/bobscars.html" target="_blank">http://www.aussiefrogs.com/shane/bobscars/bobscars.html</a>

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Leconte likes this.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  15. #15
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by petermelb View Post
    thanks shane, your chassis number appears to be in a different sequence to the car shown in Reynolds book, maybe the mumber under the plate will shed some light on this.

    If anyone else would like to send me the chassis number and series number of aussie or slough built D's to add to the list, this would be appreciated. If you don't want to post it here, please email me at [email protected]

    It doesn't matter if the car is running, or stored in a shed or paddock, or is a wreck, please send me the numbers.

    Cheers Peter.
    Hi Peter, Wow,! Time sure does have a habit of slipping by when you're not looking. How did you get on with your original question.? I see that you seem to be the one doing the listing. Isnt that always the way,? I started to ponder the question of how many and where etc with regards to our New Zealand fleet of D's. THAT was in 1979 and I am chuffed to think that after so many years, I have the most comprehensive D e'Register on the planet. This year I have completed a full computer based Register (e'Register) as the paper one got so out of hand that it was impossible to glean quick information from it. The computer work took me a solid 310 hours to log all of my information plus the countless hours fine tuning the e'Reg so that it could deliver any amount of information. Briefly, I have D 'tails on 932 New Zealand cars. Info starts with the Reg plate number, MY register number for it, All known details of the car, Engine, Chassis, Twin lamps, single lamps, swivelling, trim, colour, Model, If it is in storage, scrapped, accident write-off, on the road, under restoration, Owners names if known, sightings through the years and by whom.! and so it goes on. I can give figures of "How many" of all sorts of facts. The think I DONT know, is how many came to New Zealand.!! That is next years project. Am I near with 932 cars listed? or am I miles out yet.?? If anybody wants to know anything about the D e'Register then ask away. Sadly, out of my 932listed entries, there are only 112 cars still active on the road.!!! 97 have exemption and some of those are being worked on, 16 are accident write-offs, 25 have been exported, 6 of those to Australia. More for sure to Ozz but I dont know unless somebody tells me., There are 96 Safaris on the Register, There are 461 single headlamp cars and 359 Twin headlampers, of those, 91 are listed as swivelling lamps. There are 55 Proper DS's (BVH), 5 off 3 speed auto, 54 off 4 speed and 70 off 5 speed. Phew, still lots to find out judging by the missing figures. The Computerised Card system holds 3,227 separate cards as I have listed Chassis, Engine, Rego, and Hull numbers on grouped Cards so that I have an instant list of all sequenced numbers. I have up to 5 Car cards per car entry. I have pictures too and Owners are listed. If I put in the word (for instance), P Dekker, I get 4 Card entries listed. All mention Melbourne so maybe that is you.?? The four car cards are AX 713 '62 safari, CG 9084 '61 ID, (That may be CG 9804, I would like to find out), I also have AA 5613, '64 safari and HK 6016, changed to ND 6800, a nice '74 safari which I saw at Gracious Motors in 1993 (for $9000.00)... O.K., Seems I am on my favourite subject and it has run away with me. I would still like to know if you are proceeding with any sort of register over there and how it is going. Asking Owners to do anything is mostly very very frustrating but the true believers are only too happy to provide every single bit of info they have.. (maybe just to get me off their scent.) I noticed the other day that I have at least or maybe only, one car that was built in Victoria and if you like, I will go see if it has any numbers. Be warned, I may be back later......MWahahahahaaaaa. Baz C NZ D Register Owner.

  16. #16
    Tadpole
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    Here is a copy of the NZ D Register entry for thwe one Aust. built car that I have on file. As if by some sorta magic, turns out that I owned this for a while and must have pics somewhere.. I bought it as a wreck, rusted and incomplete. She was stripped for parts. Here is the Card Copy and I note it has a strange Chassis Number in comparison to what I would expect.
    D Register entry 0499 EG 5388 1963 ID 19

    CARJAM NO INFO
    CAR SCRAPPED FEB 1987

    GREEN / WHITE

    COLOUR NOTED AS 222432
    CHASSIS ! SERIES 6582

    ENGINE 19730933 SERIES 6582 ?
    ENGINE. (changed) 19712125 ID 19 P


    ! CAR BUILT BY CONTINENTAL AND GENERAL DIST PTY LTD
    WEST HEIDELBERG
    VICTORIA
    IMPORTED to NZ MARCH 1970
    IMPORTED AT 96,000 MILES
    SCRAPPED AT 102,988

    SEEN BAZ 5/10/1983 PAPATOETOE M/WAY

    BOUGHT FOR SCRAP 1/1987

    BAZ HAS ORIGINAL LOG BOOK. BOOK NUMBER 822963

    MARCH 1970 J BAIRD 8 CHURCHILL AVE MANUREWA AUCKLAND
    JUNE 1983 R OLSEN 62 NORMAN LESSOR DRIVE REMUERA AUCKLAND
    31/7/ 1983 BEGUELY 4158 GRT NORTH RD GLEN DEAN AUCKLAND
    APRIL 1985 GERARD GOLDER 4 COOPER CRESC OTARA AUCKLAND

    .................................................. .................................................. .............................

    Any info on the Chassis number serieses for Aus. built cars would be interesting.
    Cheers everybody. Would be interested to know if this Chassis number is typical of the Victoria built D's. (Dont ya just LOVE 'em.? ) Baz C.

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    Default Heildelberg built id19 identity plates.

    As I am sure you all know the Heildelberg built cars had 3 numbers on their identification plates.
    The top one labelled as "Body No" could be considered the chassis number and this number was exactly the same as the engine number.
    The middle number is labelled "Series"and is either a 4 digit number commencing with "6" or a 5 digit number commencing with "12".
    It has been suggested to me by a well known Citroeniste that the"6"and the"12"were Continental & General's code to identify the cars during production because at this time they were building Peugeots and NSUs and also importing several other makes.
    All the early cars (pre '63) I have seen or have records of have the "6" prefix and all the later cars(new front & button brake) have the "12" prefix.
    I would suggest the the first car series number started at 6001 and ran sequentially until the finish of production and the "new" model commenced at 12001 and followed through until production ceased.
    This ties in with the 1400 that have been estimated to be built.
    The bottom number is labelled "Colour" and is a 7 digit number commencing with either 222 or 225 and after a gap has a further 4 digits which indicated the actual colour.
    In Olivier De Serres book "DS Le Grande Livre" only seven colours are listed as being available.
    and in John Reynolds "Original Citroen DS" the same 7 colours are listed however it is known the Heildelberg also used several other colours.
    I do not know what the codes 222 & 225 represent,it does not indicate trim colours and I have seen two 4 digit color codes with both prefixes so if anyone knows what the 222 or 225 represent please advise.
    Brian W

  18. #18
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    Peter,
    IIRC the info in De Serres' book was supplied by Bill Graham (and John Couche?), after consultation with Ferdi and others. Bill may still have some source material. Let me know if you dont have his phone #.
    roger

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    One of the assemblers at Heidelberg told me in 1971 that the Citroens were assembled at the rate of two every three days. They weren't on an assembly line but on dollies that were hand pulled around the factory. He remembered them well. The factory at West Heidelberg was run by Continental & General from late 1959. I don't know if they were the builders of the plant or its connection with the Northern Assemblers plant. Both did Simcas. C&G took over Peugeot assembly from Canada Cycle & Motor Co who had a plant in Keys Rd Moorabbin and from Harden & Johnston in NSW. The plant also assembled Studebakers. C&G also handled NSU but I don't know if they were assembled. When Australian Motor Sports went to test a Heidelberg Citroen in 1959 they were told none were available and they were given an imported car instead. Renault took over the plant in 1966 and only Renault and Peugeot were assembled.

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    Default Aussie built id19's

    The information supplied by Russell is not quite correct.
    The article that he refers to was published in"AUSTRALIAN MOTOR SPORTS" in November 1961.
    In the article the tester laments that it was not possible to test a recently Australian assembled version as there were none available with sufficient mileage to withstand several hundred miles of hard driving.
    I have an original copy of the article which has the title"THE UNORTHODOX ID 19"
    The first of the id19's arrived here in late 1958 and had been built in Slough (UK) with the first (as far as I am aware) article being published in "MODERN MOTOR" in January 1959.
    "MOTOR MANUAL" published a road test in April 1960 (Slough built) and CITROEN reproduced this article as a brochure.
    The first of the French built cars were road tested by "MODERN MOTOR" in May 1960 followed by a "WHEELS" test published in November 1960.
    March 1961 saw another "MOTOR MANUAL" test published this time using a French built car (the photograph they used for the dash was one of a Slough built car).
    As mentioned previously AMS published a test in November 1961 and lastly (once again as far as I am aware "WHEELS" published an article in January 1964 and the car tested was a Heidleberg built car.
    This could well be the only test was that carried out on an Australian built car during the time that they were being built by Continental & General.
    There may well be other tests published during the perion 1960-1966 that I am unaware of so if anyone has more information of other tests I would love to hear about it.

    Brian W

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    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petermelb View Post
    thanks shane, would you be able to tell me what the body number and series of your car is ?

    As you say your car is a 1963 model with button brake pedal, this is different from the information in Reynolds book which says that the pendant pedal was repalced by a button in 1965. The 1962 car pictured in the book has a pendent pedal. The plot thickens .....

    Also it would appear that the oil bath air cleaner may have been fitted for "down under". The early D's i had in NZ were fitted with this type, as is a 1960 safari sold in australia. The safari seems to be a slough built import.
    It is possible that the Reynolds book is wrong. I have seen plenty of 63 and 64 IDs with the mushroom brake button. When I joined the CCCV in Late 66 These were the common Ds in the club. anyone who had a 66-67 model had just paid a fortune for it through PJ Regan Motors
    Cheers Gerry

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    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    Yes, that's correct I think Gerry. The master cylinder brake became hydraulic in late 61 but still actuated by a pendulum brake - as with Harriet and His Royal Highness etc - I think of this as a real 62 feature. Late 63 I think the pendulum gave way to the button. I think of 64 as the real button year...and there after. It's a second nose thing...

    Tim
    Last edited by Middlemoon.1; 4th November 2011 at 10:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slough40 View Post
    ....

    ......
    The middle number is labelled "Series"and is either a 4 digit number commencing with "6" or a 5 digit number commencing with "12".
    It has been suggested to me by a well known Citroeniste that the"6"and the"12"were Continental & General's code to identify the cars during production because at this time they were building Peugeots and NSUs and also importing several other makes.
    .....
    Brian W
    If so, would the Pugs and NSU's from the same period have an identical chassis plate with a 'Series' series commencing with numbers other an 6 and 12? Maybe, the Pug people can comment on this? What would be on cars built her at that time? You'd think it would be a similar system of numbering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    If so, would the Pugs and NSU's from the same period have an identical chassis plate with a 'Series' series commencing with numbers other an 6 and 12? Maybe, the Pug people can comment on this? What would be on cars built her at that time? You'd think it would be a similar system of numbering.
    Years ago the CCCV visited the plant at Heidleburg. I believe it was either 1969 or 1970 approx. The production of Citroens had stopped but they were producing Peugeot and Renault at that time. I remember seeing R16s on the line together with 504s. I believe there were also R12s. I am not sure whether or not the plant was still owned by Continental and General!
    Cheers Gerry

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