The LHM story
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Thread: The LHM story

  1. #1
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    The LHM story


    Lots of new (and sometimes not so new) Citroen owners ask what colour LHM is supposed to be. The above examples were taken from my 90,000klms BX 16V just after I bought it. The car had a log book showing all the services done, but unfortunately the previous owner relied on the service guys honesty & in any case probably didn't know what colour it should have been. If serviced when it should have been (as per the filled in logbook) this fluid should have been changed at 60,000klms. Some of the garbage in there was not in the reservoir. Should be of some help to owners as the colour we reproduced in both samples is pretty accurate.


    This came from a guy in Germany when I posted my LHM comparison on an overseas Bulletin Board. The arrows tell the story.
    Old LHM -> new Hydraflush -> hydraflush AFTER it had been in the system & done its job -> new LHM


    I had a little trouble interperiting his symbols on this but I think that this was the LHM either after 2500 or 25,000klms after the system had been flushed.
    Can we buy Hydraflush in Australia & how much it costs seems to be a mystery as is whatever you can use as a substitute. I have heard it suggested that blue aircraft hydraulic oil @ around $3 per litre can be used but if anyone is game to give it a try, give us the word after the event.

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    Alan S

    [editted by gibgib to enable images on the request of poster]

    [This message has been edited by gibgib (edited 27 March 2001).]
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  2. #2
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Alan S,
    Hydraflush is available here, one of our suppliers at work has it in stock so I can check the price for you. It is a debate as to how good it is thow, some people insist on it others recon its just just another one of those special tools that you don't really need, at work we just let the customer decide, the color of LHM thats easy but sometimes what is hard is trying to work out weather a drip is coolant or LHM, sometimes the only way to tell is to taste it (apprentices job).
    Regards,
    David.

    David Cavanagh

    FRENCH CONNECTION / PEUGEO WRECKING / RENOSPARES / CITROWRECK

    03 9338 8191 or 03 93354008

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  3. #3
    Local Tyrant gibgib's Avatar
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    Alan do you want me to edit your post so as the pictures appear in your post?

  4. #4
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by gibgib:
    Alan do you want me to edit your post so as the pictures appear in your post?
    Yes please gibgib. To me, Citroens are simple to operate in comparison to computers
    Look forward to your info on Hydra David; agree with you about LHM & coolant. One big disadvantage to DIY. No apprentice & causes "maritals" when you get the kids to do it
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  5. #5
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi guys,

    in case you didn't realise, LHM is $113 for 20litres through BP (bloody cheap, Brake fluid for my old 'D' is double that).

    Hmmm, 5cars that run and I'm riding my bike to work... CX = broken clutch cable, DS and ID - in bits being restored, GS = didn't renue rego, BX = girlfriends driving it...

    What I really need is another car to drive for when my CX stops!!, anyone have another old citroen that doesn't go for me to park out the back
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  6. #6
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Alan,
    I crashed out with the hydraflush, my man imported litres of it years ago and was so slow to sell when he finally sold all the didn't reorder, he also said none of the people who bought it said it was worth it, they said any improvement was so small you hardly noticed it but most agreed that by the time you thought about hydraflush your hydralics were probably to far gone to save, no one seems to buy it just to service there car as the book suggests, they all wait for a problem and then winge because it didn't work.
    I don't know anyone else who has it.
    David.
    David Cavanagh

    FRENCH CONNECTION / PEUGEO WRECKING / RENOSPARES / CITROWRECK

    03 9338 8191 or 03 93354008

    34 KING St
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    VIC 3042


    [email protected]

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  7. #7
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    David,
    Have you ever heard the story about the aircraft hydraulic fluid?
    It surfaced last year when a guy in Holland started selling an LHM substitute which he claims makes Cits ride & stop better & gives longer life to the hydraulic system. It's called Renard Blue Hydraulic fluid. Citroen promptly gave it the thumbs down & told owners that they would void their warranties if caught with it in their systems. These guys over there swear by the stuff & claim that PSA & Total are trying to keep any opposition out, which may or may not be right. However in the middle of the debate, a guy pops up & politely says it's a rip off as it's only aircraft fluid which is a fraction of the cost of LHM. After firstly denying this, they eventually admitted that this was the case but that the secret was the additives which were in it to give it better lubricating properties.
    Someone then popped up & quoted the brand (of aircraft fluid) & type, where it could be bought & at what price & claimed he got this information from the guy at Plaiedes & basically agreed with the proposition that it can be used in lieu of LHM. Nobody seems game to talk about potential long term damage & as cars overseas don't seem to last as long as ours, to them it really isn't an issue.
    Incidentally, this debate on LHM last year came about through someone saying that it was rumoured that LHM may start to disappear in the near future due to Citroen phasing out the hydrapneumatic system in favour of the more mainstream type suspensions etc & the use of the very expensive LHM+
    If you're interested, you can read about the Blue LHM at Ron Veltkamp's website.
    I would be interested in people's comments on this, yours in particular as you work at the coalface.

    http://members.tripod.com/citf2/citf.html

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  8. #8
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Alan,
    Well I don't know, I've never heard of this aircraft fluid you talk of, I will look into it but I really don't alter from what the manufacture recomends, I could just imagine fitting an expensive hydralic pump and it failed and trying to get warranty on it. I do here of alternative fluids being used, we had a CX from Alice Springs in running transmission fluid in its hydralics, the owner said its been there ten years and never a problem, he said all Cits in Alice used it, I have seen lots of damage caused from wrong lubricants that "experts" say is ok so I tend to stick as close as possible to original.
    David.

    David Cavanagh

    FRENCH CONNECTION / PEUGEO WRECKING / RENOSPARES / CITROWRECK

    03 9338 8191 or 03 93354008

    34 KING St
    AIRPORT WEST
    VIC 3042


    [email protected]

    https://www.facebook.com/FrenchConect

  9. #9
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    there is people looking into this fluid problem at the moment. It's an ongoing huge task, but checkout here:

    http://www.compufort.com/users/cando/tony.html
    for the latest.

    and here for summarys of what's been found to date:

    http://www.compufort.com/users/cando/

    Auto trans fluid is probably the worst type of mineral oil that can be used as it's full of friction enhancers so the band in the auto box will grab. Thin motor oil would be much better, at least it's not going to wear components out...

    We have very cheap LHM here, so why not keep a 20litre drum of the stuff in reserve if you live somewhere like Alice Springs??

    seeya,

    Shane Leviston
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger!
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    OOOhhh thats rite youre cars dont have shocks ? Do they have springs ?
    Thats what this LHM thing is about !!
    You are correct I know nothing of citroen. The only fluid brand I use in my lovely 405 is Amsoil.

  11. #11
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    The following are a series of messages I recently posted on another forum which unfortunately does not have an archives section, hence they are going to be lost if not retrieved & stored here.
    Whilst at first they may appear to be somewhat disjointed, the reason being that they are in response to several different requests for help.
    They deal with problems such as "how can I get the fluid out of the brake lines" "I suspect I have air in the hydraulic system" and "my hydraulic system is contaminated with dirt."
    By reading the responses, I hope that it may answer questions about the perceived "mysteries" of a very basic piece of engineering; the hydraulics of the BX. Even if you don't believe the problem described is shown here, then perhaps the solution will be.

    There is a bleeder at each brake and one on the brake valve. My thoughts are on bleeding that too little time & effort is put in to this part of the operation. Whenever I bleed any Citroen (I own a couple of CX's as well as the BX) I usually do them at least twice & give the suspension a work out between one bleeding and the next. This can theoretically release any air or garbage in the suspension.
    Firstly clean the area around the bleeding nipples thotoughly. Use new plastic hose & a clean jar. The initial bleeding normally produces contaminated LHM which is discarded. Second time around if clean work practices are involved, the LHM can be returned to the tank & bleeding can be as long as you want it to be. Remember to nip off bleed screws whilst the assistant still have their foot on the brake.
    I have even seen it done that long lengths of plastic tube is used for the front brakes & after the initial bleed to get rid of rubbish, these tubes are fitted & placed in the LHM tank & the contents simply "circulated" to rid it of all air.
    Also check the return line to the pump from the tank is sealed off & is not cracked or hard as this can give an ongoing problem with air contamination.


    Just remember that you collapse the suspension, then slacken the 12mm bolt on the regulator/accumulator & leave it loosened. Remove the tank, drain it & clean it, don't lose the white plastic disc on the bottom of the tank (this MUST be removed to clean the tank properley.) Clean the two filters (one half moon shape in cross section whilst the other is cone shaped) Wash the filters the fittings and the interior of the tank with clean petrol. BEFORE you put your hand in the tank to wash or wipe, inspect the metal lip which your hand has to go through at the opening - IT IS RAZOR SHARP !!
    Place the tank back in position & half fill with LHM. Refit filters to block, look at ball bearing that has fallen out & convince yourself that it shouldn't be there refit the block to the tank & the retaining clip to hold the tank into position. Prime the intake (or supply) line (approx. 12mm black hose that goes from the tank to the pump.) by pouring LHM into the hose via a funnel. Tighten the 12mm plug on the regulator/accumulator and reset suspension height via the height adjustment lever in the car. Fill the tank about 3/4 full with LHM. If the car refuses to rise, switch off motor & prime the intake again (start the car if necessary & then quickly refit supply hose to tank as soon as the pump starts operating.
    Now a point to remember; the brakes are dead ends so the old or contaminated LHM is still in the lines to the 4 brake calipers. When you bleed them, you will find the liquid a dirty colour which will progressively turn to the bright green of fresh LHM as the old stuff is pumped out. This must be discarded. This will be an amount of approximately one litre combined, which you will need to get rid of. This is why I said 3/4 fill the tank. As described below, the ideal set up is 3 people doing the bleeding. When completed, make sure that the LHM tank is correctly filled which I personally judge by being able to touch the level with my index finger when put in through the filler hole when the car is running and the suspension set on normal ride height.
    The three people bleeding system is quite simple & does not require all 3 to know "all about cars."
    #1 In the drivers seat starting the motor & putting the foot on the brake pedal when requested.
    #2 Standing at the side of the car shining a light into the LHM tank & topping up as required.
    #3 Doing the rounds of the wheels doing the actual bleeding.
    Whilst 3 may not be mandatory, it just makes the job so much less hassle free & prevents little accidents like forgrtting the fluid level & sucking a heap of air into the system, kicking over the LHM drum as you race from one side of the car to the other in case the tank runs dry etc.


    A recent suggestion of bleeding the hydraulics & filtering through a filter medium (I suggested a swab made from old pantyhose) just may be worth considering if dirt is circulating and causing an intermittent problem.

    As I said at the outset; I hope it is not too disjointed so as to tend to confuse more than assist. I would suggest that this information should be looked at to assist anyone who has never changed their LHM, cleaned their filters or bled air from the system or for those more experienced DIYers who may have simply overlooked something & this may help to jog your memory.

    Alan S

    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  12. #12
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    Howdy Guys,

    I just read the July edition of Practical Classics mag. which had a buyer's guide on DS's. Anyway, in the article they mentioned a mob called Pleiades in the UK that are Cit hydraulic specialists. On their website they reckon they have an Aussie branch. They're at:

    http://www.pleiades.uk.com/

    Cheers

    Stuey

    PS. the article in the mag was pretty informative...


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  13. #13
    Local Tyrant gibgib's Avatar
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    Pleiades are at Gayndah, Queensland.

    Never been there but I've heard there are probably more head of Cit there than anywhere else is Aus.

    Maleny would have to be a close second???

  14. #14
    Local Tyrant gibgib's Avatar
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    BTW,
    Here is their ad they print in the CCC of NSW magazine....


  15. #15
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    If anyone has any serious hydraulic problems, the guy at Gayndah is Peter Raffles and he can be contacted at P.O. Box 40 Gayndah 4625 Phone: (07) 41 612512
    He used to offer a diagnosis catalogue for a couple of dollars but that was before the days of GST. The number of Cit owners in Gayndah is quite extraordinary as are the variety of models. I know of one Sydneysider who called in to see the Hayes/Huth collection about a year ago who intended spending "a couple of hours" and ended up leaving still not having fully absorbed the collection after 6 hours. There are quite a number of Cits at Maleny but unfortunately most seem to be in one persons backyard.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  16. #16
    Local Tyrant gibgib's Avatar
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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alan S:
    There are quite a number of Cits at Maleny but unfortunately most seem to be in one persons backyard.

    Alan S
    Ha ha!!!

    frog likes this.

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