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Thread: DS

  1. #1
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    DS

    Just saw a gorgeous DS in the city today beautiful colour. Makes me want to buy one but not sure if they come in a full automatic gearbox? If they did were they reliable? Also how heavy was the old DS, its looks like a tank?

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    Any comments info about weight etc??? wink

  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    The DS is actualy quite light for a car of it's time. Look at the slender roof pillars, alluminium bonnet, fiberglass roof etc... I think it's about 1300kg all up with pallas trim (someone 'll correct me ).

    The car isn't hugely big, but the wheelbase is ENORMOUS! Bigger than a Chev impala by about 4inches. Just look at the wheel placement, they are right in the corners!.

    The automatics, well there's a couple of people here that love 'em, and think there ok. But really in the 'D' they were a dog of a box Dunno why, it's just a Borg Warner, but for some strange reason it wasn't to reliable at all I've seen in print several times the 'urban legend' that when the cars were new, if they were manuals, drivers were sent to the docks to pick 'em up, if they were auto's they were trucked back to the showroom... Probably a load of crap :p :p :p

    As a everyday usable car, a Dspecial would be a good start (I think that's what were supposed to tell everyone). But me?? Well I reckon no matter how new you are to them, a BVH or 5spd manual DS21 injected is the way to go. Closely followed by the DS23injected, then the carby cars from the largest capacity down.

    At the moment I've got my eye's out for a late 50's DS19. YYYYuuuummmmmm Lettus know if you see one around

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Bruce H's Avatar
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    Shane, IIRC the CCCQ was told this fact by none other than Jim Reddiex.
    Bruce H

    Now 99 Xantia SX x2; 96 Xantia SX; 76 GS Club Estate x2; 76 GS Club; 74 GS Club; 88 VW T3 Reimo
    Before: AX Gti; BX 19TRi Estate; CX 2200 Super & Pallas; CX2400 Pallas; CX 2400ie Prestige auto; DS3 DStyle; GS Pallas; GSA Club; Xantia Image Estate; Xantia Exclusive; Xsara VTR R4; 1.4 Special Estate; Virage; R16TS

    Contact for the Australian Citroen GS GSA and Birotor Register http://australiancitroengsgsaandbiro...com/index.html

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Hi Daniel,

    I am one of the Auto DS owners Shane refers to- I think that for a town car it is a pretty good way to go - it has its faults, the biggest one being that it gets too hot too quickly and takes along time to cool down again - way too much stuff crammed in under the bonnet. (EFI, Autobox, A/C) There are ways around it, but I would say that it is a labour of love to get it all right!

    IMHO the biggest problem with the Auto is that they seem to have totally stuffed up the ratios - first is far too high - up to 50mph, second is then too low - takes you just over 75, and you are thus undergeared in top also - car is doing 3000 rpms at 60 mph (100kms appr). Does mean you can take any hill you come to, but at the expense of noise and fuel economy. I have had situations where I have been flat out at 2000rpm in first climbing a very steep hill and wondering if we were going to get there! The EFI engine also does not develop max torque till over 3000rpm, so coupled with an inefficient torque converter you can have a lazy time low down.

    A D weighs between 1250-1400 kgs depending on the specs - thay are not fliers low down, but once you get them going nothing will stop them. Engines in the later cars are from 1985cc and just over 100bhp in a D special to 2347cc and 140bhp in an EFI DS23

    I agree that a D special is the way to go to start with - they are simple (comparatively), lots more space under the bonnet. The simpler trim has usually lasted better than the Pallas cars in our climate, and has a sort of seventies appeal about it now. D specials can be still bought fairly cheaply.(As Donat can testify - he can't sell his for a really low price).

    Almost all Autos are also fuel injected - the EFI is generally very reliable, but if it does play up can be a pain to get fixed as it is now nearly 30 yrs old and people just don't know how to fix these things - with EFI these days they just plug in a new computer and away it goes.

    The very rare Hydraulique late cars are very collectible - they were all private imports, as the Semi-auto box was banned by the ADRs after 1970 - they are real fliers - especially if you set the box up to change fast - although that can be at the expense of the synchros in the long term - it can change a lot faster than any human I know.

    5 speeds are getting pricey now - and usually come with the complications of EFI or A/C or worse both!

    Paul

    BTW - Shane, I recently saw a car that is not supposed to exist - it looked perfectly original though - was a DS 23 Auto, Carby, non Pallas, with A/C, from 1973. Had been off the road for ten years, and took very little to get it going again - has gone to Tassie to live now I gather.

    <small>[ 15 May 2002, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Paul Smith ]</small>
    Paul Smith

    1974 DS23 EFI BW Auto
    1974 G Special 1220


    http://www.simplicitas.com.au

  5. #5
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    Thanks paul and it sounds like they are an ok car. Im always worried about the suspension though. A person told me all was linked up together and if the suspension fails thats the end of it...I think they were all trying to stir me up...people think im crazy... disappro

  6. #6
    UFO
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    danielsydney:
    Thanks paul and it sounds like they are an ok car. Im always worried about the suspension though. A person told me all was linked up together and if the suspension fails thats the end of it...I think they were all trying to stir me up...people think im crazy... disappro
    Daniel

    I think you need to come along to "D Day" on Sunday 2 June. We meet at the seawall at Botany, then cruise "en convoy" to Kurnell National Park for a BYO picnic lunch. Last time we had 31 DSs and we expect more this time. It will be a great opportunity to lots of talking and asking about ALL sorts of DS.

    Send me a message if you want more info.

    All others welcome to come have a look too, however, non DS and other brands are not to include themselves amongst the convoy. You can tag along or go ahead and take pics

    May see some of you there?

    rgds

    Craig
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    This is one of the great furphies about Citroens, daniel. The Citroen suspension system is really one of the EASIEST to work on on any car. Try changing a front "spring" on a conventional car in five minutes. You can in a Dee!

    The hydraulics on later LHM cars are more reliable than with the old 'red fluid' early cars, but my experiences with the DS have been of great durability in this area, even though the "youngest" vehicles are now over 25 years old.

    Don't be put off by the hydraulic suspension. Its one of the best systems ever designed for a production car. The ride is simply superlative and there is nothing nicer than taking one of those doubting sceptics for a ride over a few railway crossings, potholed roads etc etc, and then showing them some of the "tricks" , like how how to change a tyre. They very quickly change their tune. Never met anyone who regretted buying a decent D. Almost everyone is hooked for life.

    Cheers

    Rod
    Rod's Home Page

    Rod's car page

    Peugeot 407 SV HDi estate 2008, Peugeot 407 SV Hdi Sedan 2006, Peugeot 406 ST (deadish), Peugeot 307 XSE, - Previously 403s, 404, 504, 505 sLI Wagons, 306 XSi, Renault 12, Citroen DSpecial

  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Danial,

    dunno how many people I end up telling this to, but the suspension is the least of your problems, the car will be long gone & dead before it wears out. Rust is the biggest problem, remember these cars are a minimum of about 30years old now (that's older than me & you), so there is more important things to worry about.

    Basicly if you want a french car with a strong Auto box your looking at old Pug's or Citroen CX's. Don't know about Peugeots but the only flavour of Citroen CX's sold with auto box's was the CX2500ie pallas which still have quite high resale values (and probably always will ).

    Here's a nice 'D', haven't seen this colour before. Maybe I'll paint my DS21 this colour?

    <img src="http://digilander.iol.it/pallas21/images/m2.jpg" alt=" - " />

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  9. #9
    Tadpole
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    Craig, if I'll still have my D, I would love be take part in the D Day in Sydney myself.. but no frowning upon because I'm a CCCQ member- that's all I ask
    --------------------
    Donat

    1977 GS PALLAS
    1975 D SPECIAL
    ??? ????????
    -------------------&gt;&gt;

  10. #10
    UFO
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    CitroŽn Tragic UFO's Avatar
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    Donat

    Certainly no frowns - only welcoming smiles and handshakes. ALL DSs are welcome, whether belongong to the CCC of NSW or not. If you can legally drive it on the road, it can come along.

    I have a strong suspicion that Bob Dircks will be down in Buttercup.

    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  11. #11
    Tadpole
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    Craig,

    yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa of course it is! approve
    --------------------
    Donat

    1977 GS PALLAS
    1975 D SPECIAL
    ??? ????????
    -------------------&gt;&gt;

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! glenn shaw's Avatar
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    daniel, i think there has been a lot of crap written about the bw32tc automatic, if you read some of the shop manuals for late ds' you get a few pages on the manual box and one paragraph on the automatic. that paragraph simply says to maintain the fluid level between the 2 marks, it says nothing about changing the fluid, cleaning the filter or keeping the bands adjusted. the factory manual is comprehensive but anyone who has the haynes type manual will be lured into simply ignoring maintainance and asking for trouble. look after it and it is no worse than any other bw35, lets face it, it might be a different layout but plates/seals would be the same inside which is where problems normally arise and need rebuilding. the auto in my ds23 injection pallas has been out twice with former owners, at 11,000km a turbine nut came loose on the front of the shaft and much later on a shift cable problem was traced to a circlip coming off inside. since i have owned it the only problem it has exhibited is the tendancy to stick in low when cold due to a sticky centrifugal govorner,once warm it shifts up and is no more problem until the oil cools off again. this is a problem that affects a fair few bw35 transmissions no matter what they are in and is'nt a serious problem. it is usually cured by giving the govorner a good clean up with petrol to free it up but it is getting around to fixing it. i have been through the process of having a rack rebuilt, spheres gassed, pump rebuilt, rear boots changed etc and i had never been around a ds before let alone have much mechanical ability but i was lucky in the fact i had a very good mate (onya pete!) who guided and helped me so fear not, anything is possible if you get over your fear of it. i had an lhm leak appear on the lh side i dreaded fixing but found it was a high volume low pressure line from the steering rack and naturally you had to be a gynacologyst to get your hands in there to tackle it. but i did and now have a new hose ready to go on to cure that problem. in all, the ds is a magnificent car you have to experience in all facets. it is beautiful to drive but can try you dearly working in confined spaces but makes ownership all that more special but i have decided i can no longer keep mine as well as my light 15 which is crying out to be restored. so if you are interested i can sell you a very nice ds23 pallas automatic with fuel injection and no air con for $15,000 or best offer- photos can be sent on request. cheers glenn.

  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Glenn,

    those factory manuals you speak of should be available through most the Citroen Car Clubs here. I'm sure we have sent CD's off to most of the clubs.

    Anyway, I think the Citroen car club of NSW is actively making copies of them. I also make copies to send out to poeple. But me being me take forever to get around to actualy posting them

    By the way, the manual needs to be No: 814 to have the Automatic bits in it.

    regarDS
    Shane L.
    PS: The manuals available are here:
    <a href="http://www.aussiefrogs.com/shane" target="_blank">http://www.aussiefrogs.com/shane</a>
    PPS: I still reckon the the CX has the only decent (reliability wise) automatic gearbox that Citroen have made. I've never heard of one dying!
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Bruce H's Avatar
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    Sorry to spoil your day, Shane, but we have a club member with a CX25 languishing in the back paddock because the ZF's stuffed and repair costs are felt better spent on his collection of Ds.
    One of the car mags also bad-mouthed the CX auto box's reliability, but whether they really meant auto or c-matic who knows?
    Bruce H

    Now 99 Xantia SX x2; 96 Xantia SX; 76 GS Club Estate x2; 76 GS Club; 74 GS Club; 88 VW T3 Reimo
    Before: AX Gti; BX 19TRi Estate; CX 2200 Super & Pallas; CX2400 Pallas; CX 2400ie Prestige auto; DS3 DStyle; GS Pallas; GSA Club; Xantia Image Estate; Xantia Exclusive; Xsara VTR R4; 1.4 Special Estate; Virage; R16TS

    Contact for the Australian Citroen GS GSA and Birotor Register http://australiancitroengsgsaandbiro...com/index.html

  15. #15
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    For all to know. In the most recent "just cars" there was an auto DS it looked out of this world(white) it was $15000. That would be a good car but out of my price range however maybe thats what the ones in good condition cost i dont know?

  16. #16
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Daniel,

    well I'm not exactly sure what exact cars are worth, but here's a try:

    ID19's : rusty cases sitting in poddocks --Free to exceptional cars (upto $12,000 I've heard paid).

    Dspecial: Around $5000 for a reasonable car, upto $10,000 for an immaculate (though I've never heard of one selling for 10,000). Rusty sad cases can be obained for around the $1000 mark.

    DS21: If it's an injected pallas in good condition (non automatic) $15,000+. I haven't really seen any others except for the exceptional cars for sale for a long time. Automatics are hard to say, If there's someone that's looking for one, they can command good money, however if no-one want's one I'm not sure what they bring --They probably just don't sell until an 'auto' person wants a car

    Carby non pallas 21's should be availabe for around $3500 for sad cases (though I haven't seen one for sale fog ages)-- Usualy rusty...

    DS23's generaly are worth a couple of thousand more than the 21's of the same spec ????

    What do other people think??? The aussie market is hard to 'guess' when so few cars come up for sale.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  17. #17
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Bruce,

    yeah I guess everyone has bad luck, but I've been on the CX lists at yahoogroups for nearly 5years (since back when Blair hosted the lists). I can't remember EVER hearing of an auto-box failure in all this time. These are extremely active lists as well. Synchro problems are much more prevelant that auto problems.

    Then again I could be all arse about. I'm sure Dave Cavanagh would be able to tell you guys which auto-box's he never has to fix

    There was a metalic green DS23ie pallas auto under a carport in Ballarat for years. Infact since I was a little kid. My father of course new all about it. The guy had bought it, drove it for a week or so and the auto died. He waited for parts for nearly a year & had it reparaired & it died again in a matter of a few days (they had forgotton to tighten something in the gbox). This of course completly trashed the box, so it was fully reco'd and he parked it under his carport where it sat for as long as I can remember. Basicly it sat there never moving until about 2years ago when he died, it suddenly dissapeared along with the old 60's falcon behind it. The car probably hadn't been used in 20years, I'm just really, really hoping it turns up somewhere oneday, and wasn't sent through a crusher to clean up his yard. It was starting to look very sad after all those years of sitting.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger!
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    As usual shane, youre right on the mark, agree with you on D prices, although the top of the market seems to be closer to $20,000 for restored top of the line cars. There was a restored Pallas for sale in canberra for $25k, a late safari advertised recently for $20k. with parts and restoration costs, these asking prices are probably not unreasonable

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