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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! ARCHRIVAL's Avatar
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    Icon5 cx 5 speed box

    Has anyone rebuilt a 5 speed late CX gearbox and are the parts ie syncros gaskets and bearing sets available. As with the rest of the work supposedly done on the T2 in the eastern states the syncros on 2nd gear are shot (very nasty trying to get into 2nd either up or down if your giving the lady a bit of stick ) even though they were supposed to have been replaced less than 5000mile ago .No wonder Bob could not cope with this car almost everything that he had other people do to the car wasn't and he was dealing with the so called best in NSW I will be preparing a through breakdown for others info later on when I finish doing all the major items.

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    If it's got 75/95 full synth in it you'll find it'll play up.
    Even only an 85 can give problems in some. It has to do with the materials they made the synchros out of they reckon. Some of the specialists also have this insane idea that ATF is a better bet (talk to an oil company Industrial chemist and watch his reaction with that one)
    I'd suggest before you start spending heaps on ripping gearboxes apart, you invest about $20 in some VMX80 Castrol and give it a try; you might be surprised at the difference if anything any higher has been put in it.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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    Fellow Frogger! ARCHRIVAL's Avatar
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    Default Thanks Alan

    I'll give it a go .If I can remember when I changed the fluids when I got the car some 6 months ago both engine and gearbox looked like treacle . I know the old p1800 volvo box takes single grade engine oil SAE 30 so a lighter oil may be the go .Nothing worse than crunching gears when your trying to be cool in such a sexy beast
    BX 16v 89, I Renault Floride 62, Volvo P1800 68, Aston Martin DB6 68, Daimler 250V8 68, Jaguar XJC 76, Falcon Ute XL 62, Falcon Ute XY 4WD, Jeep Grand Larado 03, Mazda 6 Wagon 05, inter 483 tractor 86, makita cordless drill CX TURBO its dented D Special 1 62 ID192000 Xantia V6 2000 Cadillac STS stolen by the princess,KANGA 720DL LOADER

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    FWIW, my D Special is like it's had a new gearbox fitted since I changed the oil and included a tube of Nulon gearbox treatment. Even SWMBO reckons it is far easier to change gear now.

    (Not to mention that a couple of weeks ago while doing an oil change I discovered that the retaining nut on the gear change cable was completely off the thread. Tightened that up and it's even better! )
    Craig K
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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Without flogging it to death; this is a good read.

    http://www.nulon.com.au/

    (Go to "Specialty Products" and then to 'transmission and diff treatments.'

    Used in conjunction with the Castrol VMX80 we've had some really spectacular results in every car European and Jap, that we've used it in.


    Alan S
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    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    I have tried replacing synchro rings in CX four speed gearboxes without much success. The best I had a third gear on last was just short of a year.

    Apparently what happens is that the syncho surface attached to the gear gets too rough and chews out the synchro rings. This is thought to occur because of water getting into the gearbox oil and seems to be more likely if the gearbox is left unused for a period of time. There is some thought that it is less likely to happen in fluid T lubed gearboxes.

    The only successfull method of repair that I have heard is to have the synchro surfaces on the gears built up by welding and then to get them machined back down to the right dimensions and taper.

    After wrtiting this, I think I might take the 5 speed CX wagon out for a spin this weekend.

    Ken W

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    The 5spders have a very good reputation for being a near bulletproof box. My guess is as Alan says it's got the wrong oil in it. I was quite surprised to find yours had the synchro's replaced. Really try to Nuelon, my first experiance with it was in a GS gbox, the difference was incredible. Those specialist in Sydney must do excellent work considering the cars done next to no km's since the synchro's were changed

    The 4spders seem to wear down the running surfaces on the gears themselves. The only time I've have a decent run out of synchros is when I pulled the synchro rings and gears from and old C-matic box .................................... Which raises the subject, why the hell do synchro's last forever in the C-matic, yet last bugger all time in 4spders .... There IS NO DIFFERENCE, THE GEARBOX IS IDENTICAL .... The difference ??? The oil, I changed my 4spders to Total 'T', or if you like Castrol TQF with an immediate and dramatic improvement ... If you use the C-matic ATF fluid in the 4spders there synchros have incredible life, and the gearbox will work extremelly well. They are garbage with the recommended manual gearbox oil in them.

    Now the 5spders I wouldn't put ATF near it, as it works well with proper manual box oil. Mines done 140,000 hard miles, and show little sign of synchro wear. Sure it's slightly notchy & crunchy when cold, it most likely was when new too

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 17th February 2006 at 10:38 PM.
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    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Now the 5spders I wouldn't put ATF near it, as it works well with proper manual box oil. Mines done 140,000 hard miles, and show little sign of synchro wear. Sure it's slightly notchy & crunchy when cold, it most likely was when new too

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    My turbo has done 138,000 miles, and I have to tell you, the box feels nice as CX's go!! Ok, it's nowhere near as good as a modern car, but I can't really fault it. Difficulty engaging gears can sometimes be down to worn out or dry linkage rods. The gearstick in my turbo has worn out bushes in the bottom, which mean the stick is very sloppy. These bushes are available, but only from specialist suppliers.
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    When I had to rely on "specialists" doing my work, I found one in particular who insisted on using 75W90 the reasoning being that this grade didn't leak as much and the thicker oil made for smoother changes......

    When we stopped using him after the empty gearbox saga, we switched to the straight 80 with immediate improvement.
    I suspect that the boxes in CXs would have been ZF and if so, were possibly early versions similar to the BX 5 speeders which as has been proven responds well to the VMX80 and G70 treatment.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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    Fellow Frogger! ARCHRIVAL's Avatar
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    Default Thanks guys

    thanks for the input now all in the memory bank. All i have to do now is find some time to do something about it VMX80 and G70 treatment I presume that is the nulon additive
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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARCHRIVAL
    thanks for the input now all in the memory bank. All i have to do now is find some time to do something about it VMX80 and G70 treatment I presume that is the nulon additive

    Yep,

    Available at SuperCheap in a white tube.



    Comes as 125mls and 250 mls but as I think it uses 125 per up to 4 litres from memory, all you need is the small tube (about $11.00) and if you do the fill, do a couple of thousand, dump it out and refill with another fresh mix, you only save about 50 cents buying the bigger tube and this way you can be that bit more accurate with the amount you put in.



    Alan S .
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    At the risk of straying off the thread a little, has anyone ever used Nulon products in an LHM system? If so, was there any benefit?

    Nulon's website specifies their diesel additive (HP) for hydraulic systems, but without anything specific I'm very reluctant to play with the original spec.

    Coincidentally, Nulon don't list Citroen in their list of cars that come up in the "find a Nulon product for your car" link.

    I've been using G70 and E30 for years with very satisfactory results. Most spectacular was a Renault 16TS that ran out of engine oil while I was cruising along, and still drove fine (with no oil pressure at all!) for a couple of kms as I sought a garage to fill it up again. (Smacks of butchery I know but it was (a) an ideal time to try out Nulon's claims and (b) I was prepared to replace the motor anyway.)

    I seem to recall that the sales guy's party piece for car magazines way back when was an old Renault 12 he had as a daily driver. He'd dump the oil out in front of the test crew then hand them the keys and say "see you in a couple of days!" No-one, to my knowledge and limited recall, ever blew it up!

    I was sold and used it ever since! (Must have been about 1981 as I recall)

    Incidentally the same R16 also copped a gearbox full of G70. Mrs P, who didn't know I'd added it, and used the car daily, commented. "What have you done to the gearchange? It feels much better than it was!" The ultimate blind test!

    Pottsy
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  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Gearbox IMO opinion are fine, but hell would freeze over before I'd add them to the engine (oil companies have spent millions if not billions of $$$ formulating there oils, I don't believe for a second any useful additive could possibly be added, that's no already there).

    The hydraulic system ... there hydraulics, not gears with wear in them rotatin under load. I'd never add an additive to the either.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    Fellow Frogger! chris's Avatar
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    What makes you think the hydraulic system needs any additives?

    They'll do about a million zillion kilometres on just an occasional fluid change, compared to a gearbox where the benefit is tangible -- smoother shifting, and in my case much quieter bearings...

    Chris
    GS 1220 break. Beige cars go faster

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    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong, I think the Citroen hydraulic system is unsurpassed, but I wondered if maybe the formulation of LHM or even LHM+ may have been overtaken by modern chemical developments. Herewith a quote from the relevant section of the Nulon website:


    "34) HYDRAULIC SYSTEMS

    Recent years have placed much greater demands on hydraulic systems. Hydraulic systems are using smaller oil reserve tanks to cut costs and, more importantly, to reduce the environmental risk in case of total fluid loss. It means that less oil has to be dealt with when the system is replenished, thus lessening the burden on the environment. This means that smaller volumes of oil are working harder to produce the same amount of work. Modern systems are also working at much higher pressures. All of these issues place huge demands on the hydraulic oil. There have been few changes to the performance levels of hydraulic oils for many years and they are struggling to meet the demands being placed upon them. Nulon Diesel Engine Treatment (HP) will substantially reduce wear, reduce judder, help protect seals, and generally extend the life of all components. For plain hydraulic systems add HP at the rate of 2% by volume. For systems incorporating transmissions (as in earthmoving equipment) treat at 4% by volume. Do not use HP in systems that have filters that filter material below 5 microns in size."

    I would have to be extremely well re-assured before I'd add anything to the existing superb system, but I thought I'd pose the question.

    As far as additives in oils are concerned, yes, the oil companies spend lots on making their oils better, but none of them advertise such things as teflon additives in them, so I also pose the questions, why not and what harm can it do?

    Another clip from the Nulon site:

    "28) FRICTION MODIFIED OILS

    Some oils on the market today are "friction modified". These oils are easily recognised as they are clearly marked as such. Nulon engine treatments are compatible with "friction modified" oils. However, PTFE requires friction and pressure to create a residual plating or coating on the friction surfaces being treated. "Friction modified" oils increase the time required to create the PTFE plating on the friction surfaces of the engine, but the end result will be just as effective. Nulon engine treatments are a superior friction modifier, so it is not necessary to pay the extra money for "friction modified" oil. More emphasis is now being placed on friction modifiers. The reason is that to improve engine efficiency and fuel economy manufacturers are being forced to specify lower viscosity engine oil. The recommended viscosity is becoming so low that the film strength of the oil is not adequate unless the oil is fortified with a friction modifier to protect the bearings when under heavy load. "

    This can be interpreted in a couple of ways, one of which is that Nulon takes longer, if not for ever, to become useful when mixed with a friction modified oil.

    I personally can accept the concept of double ended teflon molecules sticking to clean metal surfaces and not themselves, and consequently I can see that this can only help anywhere there is potential metal to metal contact. I'm seriously considering putting it in Moby Dick with the next sump full of Mobil 1.

    I suppose it's acceptance of a belt & braces philosophy that re-inforces my views on this stuff. (Strangely, however, I am very cynical about many other 'snake oil' solutions!)

    Pottsy.
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  16. #16
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    I for one wouldn't be adding any additives to the hydraulic system on a Citroen.

    When you think about adding an additive you have to stop and think "what am I hoping to achieve with this" ? With engine and gearbox oil the answer might be "lower friction" or smoother gearchanges etc.

    But what benefit would the hydraulic system gain from an additive ? Lower friction wouldn't necessarily be a benefit, in fact I would wager that it would not be.

    The whole mechanism of operation for the damping valves in the spheres is based on the frictional losses of oil of a certain viscocity being forced through small holes at high velocities generating heat. (Thus absorbing kinetic energy)

    Change the properties of the oil, such as the viscocity or drag characteristics, and you alter the finely tuned damping of the suspension for better or worse.

    LHM has a relatively low viscosity, of approximately 15, and isn't a particularly good lubricant, by design. About the only part of the suspension system that actually NEEDS lubrication from the LHM per-se is the front suspension struts on MacPherson strut models, as the (some of the) load bearing bushes are wet with LHM.

    In all other cases the loads are bourne by external bearings which are not in contact with LHM. (For example the rear suspension arm bearings)

    Another important property of hydraulic oil (I don't know the technical term for it) is its ability to withstand high pressure without frothing, and as far as I know LHM doesn't suffer from any issues with this, so I can't see any improvement there.

    Increased seal life ? Again, seal life doesn't seem to be an issue at all.

    I think by far the best thing you can do for the hydraulic system is to simply keep the oil and filters as clean as possible.

    So often cars that start getting cranky little problems with the hydraulic system have disgustingly dirty oil, and one of the main contaminents seems to be microscopic metalic particles that wear from all the inside surfaces of the cylinders, valves, pipes, etc, and if they are allowed to build up they can clog a few key areas -

    For example the damping chambers inside a height corrector, and the seats on the electrovalves in a Hydractive 2 system. (As seems to be the case with mine)

    Keeping the oil and filters clean is probably the best preventative measure you can take to keep the hydraulic system in tip top shape.... no additives needed IMHO...

    Regards,
    Simon
    1998 Xantia Mk2 V6 Auto Exclusive

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    Member Bob Cav's Avatar
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    Default cx turbo 5 speed

    Archrival: It is a surprise to me that second syncro has failed "again" I did have it replaced, you should have a receipt with the papers I sent you. I will speak to Warren at Auto Boutique Wollongong N,S,W it was almost impossible to change down into second without a loud crunch ,but it was perfect when the car was returned to me " I assumed it HAD been replaced " and it is hard to explain how this symptom could be fixed any other way. I think from memory that bill was about $600 . Also second is the gear that tends to get the biggest workout ,though it should not have failed within 12 months. Bob C

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! Rob T's Avatar
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    I rebuilt my 5 speed box about 2 years ago. I bought all but one bearing from the local supplier who managed to get them all out of stock in Australia. Some were common, some not. The only bearing that I couldn't get was the double row ball bearing on the outer end of the primary shaft. It was a special made just for this gearbox by SKF, and their computer said nil stock worldwide and that it was made as a special for citroen so they weren't allowed to sell me one even if they did have them. I did manage to get one as a genuine spare from stock in Australia - however it cost about $350 for this one bearing - a little more than all of the other bearings and seals combined. I did consider machining out the housing and shaft to take a more common bearing, but there isn't much room and this is a precision job so it would need to set up and machined with care. Not impossible - but not any cheaper than buying the bearing either.

    Synchro rings were still available, and gaskets too. I did a little machining and bushing to remove some wear from the clutch throwout shaft and the gear selector mechanism. And a little judicious grinding to encourage smoother engagement of the synchro mechanism. Re-asssembled with care and, to be honest, it hasn't made a huge difference. There is simply too much clearance in the whole synchro / slector mechanism to make for really slick changes. You would have to remake about half of the gearbox selector components with much tighter tolerances to get a gearbox that changes as well as a modern japanese car.

    I have also rebuilt the four speed box in my old CX 2200. Several times. On the early cars, the conical synchro surface on the gears would wear to a nice even dull matte black finish. This looked so good that I assumed that they were made like that. The synchro ring only lasted about 1 year. In those days, I could still buy just the gears as spare parts at reasonable prices, and this was when I discovered that the synchro surface should be a bright precision ground finish. This second rebuild was still working fine when I sold the car some years later.

    The synchro rings have different part numbers between the 4 speed and 5 speed boxes. I still have the old worn rings from the 4 speed box and when I compared them to the new rings for the 5 speed box there were no significant dimensional differences. The rings are made from sintered steel so I assume that Citroen recognised the problem and changed the material specification, presumably for something softer.

    Anyway, the gears in my 5 speed box looked like new, so I was happy to just fit new synchros.

    There are couple of methods for repairing the worn synchro face on the gears.

    There was a company in Brisbane that used to build up the surface with weld and then grind back, but when I asked them to do this for a friend restoring a 4 speeder last year, they declined saying that there were too many distortion problems. You must start with the right welding rods and the process needs careful pre-heat to just the right temperature and a careful slow and controlled cooling to keep the stress under control. It is undoubtedly a tricky job, given that we are dealing with hardened steel gears that must remain round afterward.

    It is also possible to machine the gear down and shrink fit a new ring. The ring is made from a case hardened steel and is heat treated prior to fitting. It requires only a light grind to finished dimensions after shrinking in place. I used this repair on a GS many years ago and it worked well. The advantage of this method is that the ring can be made oversize so that you can re-use the previously too worn synchro ring. Note that this is also a precision job and is best given to toolmaker who already knows how to work with hard materials to close tolerances.

    Good luck, archrival. Send a PM if you want more detail.
    Robert Thorne
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  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! ARCHRIVAL's Avatar
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    Default Thanks Rob

    The Nulon treatment is looking better all the time
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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    FYI, I just got a parcel from Martin Bray and in it a dodger telling me that he's presently wrecking a CX2.5 Turbo 2.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  21. #21
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    FYI, I just got a parcel from Martin Bray and in it a dodger telling me that he's presently wrecking a CX2.5 Turbo 2.


    Alan S
    If it's the one he got ages ago, it was wrecked and sold off within days. He still had only the motor at that stage. It's sump was shattered, and the turbine itself he found slack in by trying to wobble it's shaft on it's bearings (so the T3 I imagine is buggered and on it's last legs). Mine has no measurable wear (without special guages) at 140,000miles. He may still have the g'box attached to this motor ??? Either way it's no good to other CX owners in Australia as it's way to high geared for the non-turbo donk to pull.

    BTW: Turbo II means the gearbox on that motor will only have one flywheel sender so it's not a simple 'bolt up' change for our local injected cars.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I doubt very much it would be the same one as he only printed the invoice yesterday.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  23. #23
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    I doubt very much it would be the same one as he only printed the invoice yesterday.


    Alan S
    I just rang him, it's all basically gone (so I think it is the same one as before). He said he was really worried he's be stuck with it and a heap of unsalable parts .................... To find he'd sold nearly everything within a weak

    Anyway, he's got 4 doors with trims on them (possibly a good upgrade for a local car with buggered door trims) and a motor/gearbox with what appears to be a good turbo on it (he hasn't had it professionally tested, but will do that prior to sale).

    Archrival, his contact details in in the sticky at the top of this forum if your interested.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Fellow Frogger! ARCHRIVAL's Avatar
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    Default tempation temptation

    gearbox for the Cx and pistons rods and turbo for the DS how much can a Koala bear
    BX 16v 89, I Renault Floride 62, Volvo P1800 68, Aston Martin DB6 68, Daimler 250V8 68, Jaguar XJC 76, Falcon Ute XL 62, Falcon Ute XY 4WD, Jeep Grand Larado 03, Mazda 6 Wagon 05, inter 483 tractor 86, makita cordless drill CX TURBO its dented D Special 1 62 ID192000 Xantia V6 2000 Cadillac STS stolen by the princess,KANGA 720DL LOADER

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