Myth busting the ID 19
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  1. #1
    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Icon14 Myth busting the ID 19

    In the past, I've read (particularly on this board) about ID 19's being slow on the road and heavy to steer.

    As far as the steering is concerned, its on par with a GS and with some of the more modern cars, this is power steering!

    I don't find them slow to get around in, either - sure the absence of a 1st gear synchro is a little hard to adapt to, but they most certainly keep up with the more conservative of drivers on the road.

    What I don't get is, why aren't there more pre '68 DS and ID's on the road these days? If John Paas's long-stroke census is anything to go by, they seem to be quite rare on the ground when there really isn't any need for it.

    After recently procuring a Heidelberg ID, I now understand the sentiment of those who follow the "true CitroŽn" aesthetic as these early long-stroke ID's are truely something.

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    DS
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    Back when I got my first car (a DS23 EFI auto in 1986) I had no idea that there were D series cars that didn't have the faired in headlights. It was something I didn't learn about until I started to get into what I was driving. What I did start to learn was the stigma associated with the early car the most common being references made to how dirty the LHS2 was and how it stripped paint and they leaked fluid etc. The ID19 being the car that only a couple of club members had in use even back then. NOT MUCH HAS CHANGED...................Why don't more people search one out and get it on the road?

    They are not as hot to travel in in the summer time!

    I very quickly became addicted to the earler cars and whilst my DS23 was my regular ride I ended up living in inner city Sydney with 5 D series on the street with a couple of ID19s in that group. The long stroke motors are SOOOOOOO much sweeter at idle and even so at speed. The gearing on the cars used to have friends in short stroke engined DS cars calling me a hoon because I would appear to race away at the lights. I wasn't. That engine and gearboxs just allows for a much quicker "off the mark" a bit like a Traction avant moves away seemingly fast.

    I don't like LHS2. Never have. It's yucky stuff. My ID19 which was an LHS2 car is now ALL LHM and has been for a few years. Its soft. Its smooth. Its had one leak only after the conversion and that was fixed by nipping up the offending pipe joint.

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    Member XantiaHead's Avatar
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    Pardon my ignorance DS, but why are the earlier IDs less hot to travel in?

    Also, is there any difference between the ride comfort of an LHS2 car and an LHM car?

    Cheers,

    Andrew Matusiewicz
    Canberra, ACT

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    DS
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    Well I dunno really other than mine never seems to over heat. Its got all its proper ducting on as well as blowers. Its possibly got something to do with the air being collected from under the headlights instead of in the bumper on later cars. When you are moving the air roars in, much faster than on my later model Safari.

  5. #5
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I've had a few people drive my old ID19, and the consensus seems to be "For an ID19, it's really fast"... However ... They are bloody slow cars, I'm not going to beat around the bush and try to kid myself otherwise. You have what 68hp ??? pulling a huge car along. Off the line most of that 68hp is stuggling to spin the massive flywheel upto speed (as opposed to move the car quickly ) They will keep up with the majority of modern traffic, and mine will hit an indicated 90mph without much problem. However fast ........... NO !!!!

    The DS23ie 5spd that my father has it effortless, though still not *fast*. The torque of the injected motor really does help when idling around, I was very surprised at the way it hauled the car along at low revs in 5th gear. It's still no faster than a carby fed CX2400 though 4spd manual though.

    The ID19 are what 17seconds ??? to 62mph ... DS23ie is somewhere between 10-11seconds, the CX2400 4spd manual about 10.5seconds... None of them are fast cars.

    The CX GTi Turbo and XM 24valve V6 manual are 0-100km/h in about 7.8seconds ... Still not very fast cars by modern standards (a bog standard fowlcan will do this in it's cheapest automatic form).

    Still, I'd hapily drive the old ID19 all the time. They may be cooler than the later cars simply due to the fact far less power == far less heat being produced. Being black, my ID19 is what you would call cool to travel in

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    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DS
    Well I dunno really other than mine never seems to over heat. Its got all its proper ducting on as well as blowers. Its possibly got something to do with the air being collected from under the headlights instead of in the bumper on later cars. When you are moving the air roars in, much faster than on my later model Safari.

    Mine has the early front and its amazing how the air comes straight from the bottom of the front wing and straight into the car through those agressive looking vents.

    For me, the DS 21 IE was like an oven - there's just so much engine under the bonnet that really gives the term 'firewall' its true meaning.

    And Shayne, I was always under the impression that ID's travelled like a 1015 GS c-matic wagon with 5 people in it.

    What I do like about the ID is the gearing, how you can comfortably cruise at 35mph and be in 3rd gear without the motor yelling at you to drop it into 4th.

    It's early days for me, I guess.

    As for ride differences, the early cars seem to float quite differently to their LHM'ed DS/ID cousins and I am not sure if its better or worse.
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    My father owned a 65 1D19 back in the early 70s, and had it for many years. White with red interior. Still some of best seats I have ever sat in. The gearing was actually quite high on these....something in the vicinity of 2800 to 2900 at 60 mph, I think (he fitted a tacho!).

    When purchased, it used more oil than petrol as it turned out. I still recall my grandfather shaking his head in disbelief, when my father and his friend pulled the engine and gearbox out and and had it all dismantled on the garage floor with a workshop manual. Even more amusing was using a tractor and hoist/jig the lever it out and back in! He did the motor up with new rings bearings, valve grind etc etc. It than ran and idled like a clock for many many miles.

    In local town of Maffra (Vic) it always raise many eyebrows - nothing to do with driving it on 3 wheels one day of course

    As the family expanded, he purchased a 69 safari wagon, the tractor and jig came in handy for this as well, but that's another long winded story or two.

    Cheers,

    Scott

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    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott 505 gti
    Even more amusing was using a tractor and hoist/jig the lever it out and back in!

    Cheers,

    Scott
    Hey Scott,

    I think you mean jib, a crane attachment that you mount on the three point linkage on the back of the tractor. And I bet the tractor was a Massey Ferguson 135. Those Masseys (and their larger and newer cousins) had a neat hydraulic feature called "pressure control" which could exert the amount of lift you set and maintain it at any height. So once you have set the hydraulic lever so the jib will hold up the engine, all you have to do is put your hand on the engine and pull it up and the hydraulics will do the work. This is ever handier when you are lowering it, as all you have to do is push down and the hydraulics will hold it wherever you like. I have used it to pull an engine and I wish I still had access to one of those tractors.

    Roger

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    Donat I've always loved the early D's and your right you rarely seem them even at club meets!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Wilkinson
    Hey Scott,

    I think you mean jib, a crane attachment that you mount on the three point linkage on the back of the tractor. And I bet the tractor was a Massey Ferguson 135. Those Masseys (and their larger and newer cousins) had a neat hydraulic feature called "pressure control" which could exert the amount of lift you set and maintain it at any height. So once you have set the hydraulic lever so the jib will hold up the engine, all you have to do is put your hand on the engine and pull it up and the hydraulics will do the work. This is ever handier when you are lowering it, as all you have to do is push down and the hydraulics will hold it wherever you like. I have used it to pull an engine and I wish I still had access to one of those tractors.

    Roger
    Hi Roger,

    Correct - "Jib", and the technique you explained.

    Although the tractor was only the red Massey Ferguson 35 diesel.....but did the job nicely

    Nothing like living on a farm to inspire 'agricultural means' for removing and installing engines!

    Regards,

    Scott

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    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raver
    Donat I've always loved the early D's and your right you rarely seem them even at club meets!
    That's a great shame, because if say 1400 Australian assembled IDs were built, then where are they now? Okay its been 40 plus years between drinks, but still...
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    Quote Originally Posted by donat
    That's a great shame, because if say 1400 Australian assembled IDs were built, then where are they now? Okay its been 40 plus years between drinks, but still...
    Schsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssss
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    (and I still love it)

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmut

    (and I still love it)
    At least you are looking after yours. Hardly any of us here seem to care about them now. Mine is in a dry shed, even if it is gathering dust while I concentrate on my Slough DS19.

    Roger

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    Tadpole steves id19's Avatar
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    Icon7 id19's

    Quote Originally Posted by donat
    That's a great shame, because if say 1400 Australian assembled IDs were built, then where are they now? .
    Well I have a rough, but very ready 1964 id19. needs a little work under the bonnet and a splash of paint but I will hopefully have it on the road within the year as my everyday car.
    At cruising speed these cars drive wonderfully, but city driving can be a little hard on the arms (mine doesn't have the hydraulicly assisted steering).

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    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steves id19
    Well I have a rough, but very ready 1964 id19. needs a little work under the bonnet and a splash of paint but I will hopefully have it on the road within the year as my everyday car.
    At cruising speed these cars drive wonderfully, but city driving can be a little hard on the arms (mine doesn't have the hydraulicly assisted steering).
    Good to see... they're such majestic machines.

    There was a French built 61 ID 19 on Ebay with an opening bid of $800 in Melbourne and no one snapped it up! Such a shame.
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    1000+ Posts dogboy's Avatar
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    Default old ID's

    She may not be driving much having a need of some tender loving care but my 66 ID 19 confort is in safe dry storage until the time when I can revive her...can't imagine life without it really!
    here's an interesting thread...
    The old ID19 is finaly coming together...
    Cheers
    Rev. Dogboy


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    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogboy
    She may not be driving much having a need of some tender loving care but my 66 ID 19 confort is in safe dry storage until the time when I can revive her...can't imagine life without it really!
    here's an interesting thread...
    The old ID19 is finaly coming together...
    Cheers
    You've still got it? Good to hear.
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts dogboy's Avatar
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    Default Id19

    No Donat.... The ID has still got me!!
    Just love the 60's D's over the 70's ones...IMHO they have it all over the later series...may not be the fastest (but a D was never noted for it's speed) but with the nicer (note how objective I am)looks and softer damper rates they win hands down....only a 60's DS would be better...
    Cheers
    Rev. Dogboy


    1969 DS21 Pallas BVH with leather
    1970 Renault 16TS
    1967 Honda S800 cabrio
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  19. #19
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogboy
    No Donat.... The ID has still got me!!
    Just love the 60's D's over the 70's ones...IMHO they have it all over the later series...may not be the fastest (but a D was never noted for it's speed) but with the nicer (note how objective I am)looks and softer damper rates they win hands down....only a 60's DS would be better...
    Cheers
    Almost right ... Having driven 2 50's DS19's, I'd say the 50's DS19's are the pinnacle of the D series cars (the most bloody wierd too ).

    seeya,
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  20. #20
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Almost right ... Having driven 2 50's DS19's, I'd say the 50's DS19's are the pinnacle of the D series cars (the most bloody wierd too ).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Damn right. Think of them as the purest and least adulterated expression of the designers' vision. Almost every change made to the D after that was a compromise foisted on the company by the dictates of the market. The early DS is only wierd if you look at it with conventional eyes. Aside from the engine, it just has to be one of the cleanest of clean sheet car designs ever. And every time they modified it they made it less unconventional.

    Roger

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    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Wilkinson
    Damn right. Think of them as the purest and least adulterated expression of the designers' vision. Almost every change made to the D after that was a compromise foisted on the company by the dictates of the market. The early DS is only wierd if you look at it with conventional eyes. Aside from the engine, it just has to be one of the cleanest of clean sheet car designs ever. And every time they modified it they made it less unconventional.

    Roger

    I think my next car is going to have to be a pre '63 DS 19. I don't like my odds of being able to procure one.

    There is something rather captivating about the first-nose DS and ID CitroŽns - so much so, I can't even appreciate the look of a post '68 D anymore. It's kind of silly, really.

    The more I look at the older D's, the more I understand just how surreal the car must have been compared to other cars on the road in the late 50s. ...and in some ways, nothing's changed.
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  22. #22
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donat
    I think my next car is going to have to be a pre '63 DS 19. I don't like my odds of being able to procure one.

    There is something rather captivating about the first-nose DS and ID CitroŽns - so much so, I can't even appreciate the look of a post '68 D anymore. It's kind of silly, really.

    The more I look at the older D's, the more I understand just how surreal the car must have been compared to other cars on the road in the late 50s. ...and in some ways, nothing's changed.
    Nothing silly about it, I struggle with the look of the newest ones myself. One thing to remember about the early DS19s is that there were many subtle changes. They didn't lose their weirdness at a stroke in 1963, it happened gradually. I've just had a quick flick through my 1964 DS19 parts book and listed a few of the changes that would be noticed by anyone (like me!) who knew what they were looking for. And there are plenty that I haven't listed.

    October 1957: bonnet stay moved from left to right

    November 1957: angular manual height control quadrant replaced by curved one; reflective sticker deleted from side of rear reflector

    February 1958: flattened single aluminium tube exhaust pipe and fishtail replaced by twin pipes

    September 1958: integral pivot and output on hydraulic pump replaced by separate pivot and output

    November 1958: Rubber driveshaft shields on front longerons deleted

    June 1959: engine mounts redesigned

    July 1959: external inlet manifold and twin coils replaced by integral inlet manifold and conventional ignition; rear wings redesigned, large winged reflector housing replaced by small one

    Sepbember 1959: white tape winding on steering wheel replaced by black; "ashtrays" in front wings

    May 1960: auxiliary hand control for windscreen wiper deleted

    July 1960: 5 way pressure distribution block on firewall replaced by 3 way block; rear brake accumulator deleted

    September 1960: low pressure pump for low speed clutch control replaced by centrifugal regulator

    February 1961: major redesign of accelerated idling control

    March 1961: flat top pistons replaced by dome top pistons and damper

    July 1961: small diameter brake mushroom replaced by larger one

    August 1961: wavy dashboard replaced by slopey dashboard

    April 1962: manual ignition advance control deleted

    September 1962: Front end redesigned

    So my 1959 DS19 has most of the weird features but by no means all of them.

    As for your odds of being able to procure one, they are pretty good. The cars are out there, but no one is giving them away and any car you find would need a fair bit of restoration. I may well have purchased the last two available for sale in Australia that have not needed serious work. But to buy them I had to pay far more than I had ever paid for a car before. One possibility is to talk to John Paas about the ones in the Blue Mountains.

    Roger

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    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Thanks for the tip, Roger. I'm amazed at the DS's subtle changes year by year. Some of them improved the car and some didn't, but I guess it all boils down to personal tastes in the end.

    I wish they kept going with the fishtail exhaust tail piece, I quite like them. I believe some Tractions had them as well, perhaps as an accessory item..?

    I'll certainly talk to Mr Paas regarding any early DS's that may be for sale. I'm of the understanding that he's got an impressive knowledge of who's got what if his census is anything to go by. Thank goodness such a census exists - I find that sort of data fascinating, or maybe I'm just boring!

    I wouldn't mind a '57 Slough DS, though a hydraulique without a 1st gear synchro would be quite an uncomforable experience, though I could be wrong. At the rate I'm going, my next car might as well be a Traction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by donat
    Thanks for the tip, Roger. I'm amazed at the DS's subtle changes year by year. Some of them improved the car and some didn't, but I guess it all boils down to personal tastes in the end.

    I wish they kept going with the fishtail exhaust tail piece, I quite like them. I believe some Tractions had them as well, perhaps as an accessory item..?

    I'll certainly talk to Mr Paas regarding any early DS's that may be for sale. I'm of the understanding that he's got an impressive knowledge of who's got what if his census is anything to go by. Thank goodness such a census exists - I find that sort of data fascinating, or maybe I'm just boring!

    I wouldn't mind a '57 Slough DS, though a hydraulique without a 1st gear synchro would be quite an uncomforable experience, though I could be wrong. At the rate I'm going, my next car might as well be a Traction.
    I know of a 1957 Slough DS19 that might be for sale. I've seen it, and it runs, but don't expect to drive it anytime soon as it has some structural rust and is definitely a full restoration project. Having said that, it IS a 57 DS. If you are seriously interested donat, let me know and I'll put you in touch.
    Cheers,

  25. #25
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brett R
    I know of a 1957 Slough DS19 that might be for sale. I've seen it, and it runs, but don't expect to drive it anytime soon as it has some structural rust and is definitely a full restoration project. Having said that, it IS a 57 DS. If you are seriously interested donat, let me know and I'll put you in touch.
    Cheers,
    Hi Brett,

    what sort of $$$ is the owner after ?? Just a ballpart figure (you can PM me if you don't want to post the amount publically).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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