Quick paint job anyone ????
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  1. #1
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Default Quick paint job anyone ????

    Hi Guys,

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    I've come to the conclusion, I am unable to afford to give the old CX a professional paint job, and I'd like to get some paint on it before it gets another soaking through winter.

    I doubt I'll get it done by winter. This thread may drag out until next summer given my spare time. And I'll have to drive one of those "half painted" cars around.

    This appears to be a common question around here "How do I give my old Renault/Poogoe/Citroen a cheap paintjob ". The cars very straight and rust free, how much efforts involved

    This is the stage I'm at, the car is very straight for it's age, and quite rust free. Yet the paint is absolutely buggered (surprisingly it looks quite good in photo's from a distance).

    I'll post costs and time taken here as I proceed so you guys can get an idea of the time and $$$ involved for a "Quick but half decent" paint job.

    First problem is the car is two pack... This is the stuff where you mix a hardener and reducer to the paint ... it then sets like concrette and is a brilliant paint ... However is extremelly toxic and I refuse to spray it. I will instead get the colour mixed as acrylic (matching the back of the fuel filler flap if they can't mix by paint code).

    Quick and simple right, that's what we all think. Well I've just taken some piccies of the car.

    To give you an idea of what the starting point is these are some piccies I took last year (after giving it it's annual wash ).





    Later today I'll post photo's of the work that I need to do ... Quick paint jobs would you believe aren't "real quick" I'm guestimating $500bux for the paintjob, we'll see how close I get.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 18th March 2013 at 09:17 PM.
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  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I wonder if I'll ever find the spare time to finish this



    There is always shallow dents here where people push on the bonnet to close it. This car is no exception Yes all those white dots are stone chips... No show princess this car, she gets used just about everyday, tows caravans & trailers and must earn her keep.



    These tiny dots here is rust. I've never seen an aussie car rust here, however apparantly it's quite normal for UK cars. I wonder what I'll find when I wire brush that back to solid metal



    Dunno how you dent a boot like this ... the car wore all these battle scars when we got it.



    The boot lid looks fine ...



    However when you open it that black plastic strip causes the boot edge to be eaten away by rust (it's got no worse since the car hit Australian shores). I'll look into simply replacing the bootlid with one from my wrecks if possible.



    Bumpers... Look terrible so I painted them... They will need to be repainted again (stone chips & scrapes [email protected] nudging my car in carparks ). Grill is another thing that need painting.



    This is the reason I'm being forced to paint the car. The clear coat is starting to peal right down the LHS of the car. Base colour doesn't offer much protection from the elements. That's what the clear is for.



    I always wonder how a very shollow dent that is a wierd shape could get into one of the doors (and not leave a mark on the paint). One of the previous owners cows head butted the door The dent is the shape of a cows head



    I know exactly how the fuel filler flap on this car got bent, 'cos I did it to my last CX when I painted it ..... polishing machines grab the flap as your polishing it and open it at the speed of light ... bending it ... This was like this when we bought the car.



    Don't forget the mirrors, they need to come off and get painted ...



    Read badges and bumper and spoiler ... all need to come off.



    Wiper ... needs to come off, note the metal it attatches to is a different panel that will too have to be painted.



    Look at all the door bits ... The handles, locks, middle strips, upper strips, window rubbers guides ... all need to come off The stainless trims are painted mat black. Hopefully someone will have a suggestion on how to paint these so they stay black (and the paint doesn't just scratch off again).



    These dents were put in the roof by the shipping company that bought the car out to Australia. they must have pushed themselves down the side of the car when it was in the container ... leaving a trail of dents as they went



    The windscreen will have to come off ... and that gutter trim, how do I get it off without smashing it ??



    All the paint on the car appears to be original paint it left the factory with (except one of the rear quater panels that has obviously been resprayed at some point).... So why is this bit here stoneguard I'll have to get Smiffy to check his car, if this isn't original I'll have to dig around and see what it hides.

    It's not sounding like a quick easy job anymore is it ??? Little wonder paint jobs cost so much !!!!

    I think I'll start with the bonet and proceed from there.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 18th March 2013 at 09:20 PM.
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  3. #3
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    You should go close to getting there on a $500 budget. I've just repainted a Lancer and done a partial on a BX, all in Laquer.
    If the cars colour was initially 2 pack forget about trying to match; it just doesn't happen mainly due to the varience in texture, colour, pigment base and tinters. A full respray is a better option in a case like this.
    Prep work is time consuming, with the Lancer taking about a week to prepare with 2 men working on it.
    Few clues I soon discovered. You can buy a masking tape with hard plastic on half of it that is ideal for doing around window rubber corners (used bymost panel shops these days) but costs $27 a roll.
    SuperCheap is as good a supply for W & D paper, tape, thinners (all purpose as well as Premium) all their paints are Septome, locally made stuff including a "one shot primer" that is brilliant. I'd say you'll save at least 33 1/3% on material costs if you use them.
    Top coat price then is a bit easier to swallow when you get a decent brand mixed to spec and they hand you a bill for around $125 per litre depending on colour.
    BTW, 4 litres is usually cheaper than 3

    I take it you have an air powered random orbital sander???


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  4. #4
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Alan,

    It was always going to be a full respray ... or nothing. It would be impossible to match the faded paint, even with 2pack paint. The reason I mentioned colour matching is possibly they will not have the formulae for acrylic using the code on the car (as it'll bring up the 2pack ingrediants). If this is the case I'll get it matched using acrylic.

    Yeah supercheap could be the go. Last time I painted red is was the most expensive pigment. However I'm sure it was about $200bux for high quality dulon paint. Your right $500 might be a low by the time I buy thinners, sandpaper and oneshot.

    I do have an air sander, but it works the hell out of the compressor. Last year I purchased a little dewalt eletric palm random orbital sander, it's a bloody rippa, and you don't need to drag the heavy air hose behind you.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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  5. #5
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I'd pay someone to fix the rust, if you're not capable, and give that area a coat of matt black ( I take it it's internal). I would then wait until you can afford to do the whole car properly in two pack. The value of the car is not going to change as it is. You'll probably de-value it giving it a cheap job. I'm in a similar position with my Mi16x4, but until I can afford to strip the car and do it properly, it's staying as is.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  6. #6
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Well I finally found the nerve to start. I'm not looking forward to driving around a half assembled/painted car for months ....

    Anyway ... yep scarey amount of tools already required.



    I think plastic filler (bog) is bloody brilliant stuff. A lot of poeple think it's crap 'cos it falls out ...



    This was wirebrushed and looks so shiny and clean you'd think you can just bog over it and paint... However I want to know why it rusted in the firt place.... As it turns out ... the bog would have fallen out if I'd just used plastic filler here.

    I lifted the bonnet, and the gap sealer where the bonnet skin meets the frame looks bulged... So I wire brushed it with the angle grinder too.





    Hmm, rusty... I think I better open her up.



    So I bent back the edge of the bonnet skin ...



    Ok ... angle grinder time .....



    Hmm.... I don't believe it .... 1/2hour into tinkering and I'm hacking into the car with the angle grinder ...

    The reason for this rust ?? My Citroen has only used the flat panel black on the back of the bonnet ... this happens to turn porous (as anyone that's seen new unpainted panels on cars knows ... they rust ... really quickly). Plus salty water must settle on this edge when water gets into the bonnet.

    It's now 40degrees outside ... and I'm no good at welding upside down ... So it's already off with the bonnet to weld some new metal in. I'll go out when the suns down and pull the bonnet off cut/weld/bog & undercoat so I can use the car again on Monday.

    Lets keep a total running. So far ... 1 hour.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 18th March 2013 at 09:23 PM.
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  7. #7
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    I'd pay someone to fix the rust, if you're not capable, and give that area a coat of matt black ( I take it it's internal). I would then wait until you can afford to do the whole car properly in two pack. The value of the car is not going to change as it is. You'll probably de-value it giving it a cheap job. I'm in a similar position with my Mi16x4, but until I can afford to strip the car and do it properly, it's staying as is.
    Hi Peter,

    I can do it properly ... Just not the top coat. Possibly I'll prepare it and when it's top coat time maybe see if I can just get someone to shoot it for me in a spray booth and bake it ... We'll see what happens anyway.

    I'd NEVER try painting this car as a 'first attempt'. I've actually painted about 5cars in the last 10years. I now have the tools, and if I take the time the experiance to do a decent job (that's why I'm not kidding myself into thinking this can be done "in a weekend".

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    Modern Junk:
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  8. #8
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    rust repairs... uuugh... been there!

  9. #9
    Local Tyrant gibgib's Avatar
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    I'll be watching this thread with great interest.

  10. #10
    Simon's Avatar
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    If the windscreen is not going to be pulled out, get some thick washing line type rope to sit under the lip of the screen rubber. That way the rubber sits above the window frame, and can be masked off allowing the new paint to go just under the edge. When painted, the washing line is removed, rubber unmasked, and the seal edge sits over the new paint, with no paint on the edge of the rubber seal.

  11. #11
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Mark me down for another 1.5hours... Just under 3hours and I haven't even lifted a peice of sandpaper yet.

    I wire brushed the back with the angle grinder enlarging the holes quite a bit.



    This opened up the holes quite a bit.... Can you believe those little dots, about the size of match heads have turned into this ??? That's rust for you



    So I welded up the holes ...



    I'm scratching my head wondering how I'll treat the metal after it's fixed. You see inside the seam will be unpainted/untreated as anything I put there at this point will either burn off or catch fire I think I'll fill this area with oil/grease once the areas repaired.



    And finally some new metal for the back...

    Tomorrow ... Hopefully I'll find time to stich the new peice of metal in & bog it over and cover with some weatherproof paint ready for later prep & painting.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 18th March 2013 at 09:24 PM.
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    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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  12. #12
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I used firstly thick string, then thin rope on the windscreen after using the $27 a 10 metre roll masking tape on the rear window, but as I hauled it out after I'd finished, the windscreen rubber began to lift out, so I pulled it out.
    I got one of the boys to help me refit it and just when we thought we nearly had it, I heard the "F" word in a manner to strike fear into anyones heart and discovered he'd managed to hit the edge of the screen with a screwdriver and.............split the screen. The new screen looks great though!!!

    They charge about $80 to remove and replace the screen including new sealant and in my opinion, cheap at harf the price.

    PS. On bare metal, use "Deoxidine" prior to etch primer and one shot. It gives the aint a good solid surface to work to.


    Alan S
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  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Alan,

    yeah I haven't decided if I'll use the string trick, or pop the screen out. I've probably had 1/2dozen screen out of CX's, and broken 2 of them ... Not a good ... So I average breaking 1 in 3 .... If I had lots of patience I'd probably get them all out without breakage

    CX back window is a peice of cake ... after you remove the stainless trim you can just mask as slopilly as you like as when you refit the stainless edge trim it's covered. The base of the rear quarter windows is hard to keep clean and dry to paint (not to mention a bugger to tape up).

    This stuff is a long way off yet though.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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  14. #14
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Warning: I'm a perfectionist...

    A really essential thing for painting is a moisture trap. Being an occasional/small parts painter I use a MotorGuard M-30. A fridge-drier is better but pricey. The moisture filter that comes with many regulators is basically useless, especially once the air in your lines heats up.

    Price your paints before you go with a cheap brand. Orica now offer a range of "Autothane" branded 2K products which are all but indistinguishable from their flagship brands. A main difference is lack of after-sales support. Cheap masking tape is an exercise in frustration.

    Yes, free isocyanates are very dangerous. However, 2 coats of clear 2K compared to 4-6 of acrylic make a big difference in exposure time to their respective hazards. If your film build with acrylic is underspec from too few coats, it will degrade very quickly.

    You should check but I think that the air passed by the filter I named above is breathable and thus suits a positive pressure respirator. Regular air out a compressor contains oil vapour droplets that may cause a nasty type of pneumonia.

    Coverage at spraying consistency is 8-10m≤/coat/litre colour and topcoats, maybe 2m≤/coat/litre less for high build primers whether acrylic or 2K. Quite frankly, acrylic for a daily pressed into immediate (unpampered) re-use is asking a whole lot of the paint.

    Shame you can't get a "standby" with a local beater, so if they're having a quiet afternoon, the car gets towed off for another panel to be worked up and primed. I imagine many aren't too busy this time of year and with our present (average) levels of personal debt...

    Regards, Adam.

    Edit - had to fix a typo...

  15. #15
    Simon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    I'm scratching my head wondering how I'll treat the metal after it's fixed. You see inside the seam will be unpainted/untreated as anything I put there at this point will either burn off or catch fire I think I'll fill this area with oil/grease once the areas repaired.
    Fishoil or Tectyl sprayed or poured in and allowed to drain is your friend once the job is finished. Oil or grease will just hold any water that gets through.

  16. #16
    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Glad to see you've taken the plunge!!!

    You asked why the leading edge of the bonnet rusted.
    I'll answer that for you. It's condensation, from a warm engine, forming on the inside of a cold bonnet, then running down towards the headlights.

    Your bootlid is horrific!!! Even the one on my scrap car is slightly better than that!

    I really wish the carriage wasn't so much, or I would GIVE you a CX GTi bonnet I have here.

    I will be using 2-pack paint, as I've just invested in a forced air respirator.
    It cost me £100, but I think it will be worth it.
    I would avoid pulling off the black narrow stainless trim below the windows, as it's likely to crease, making it useless. Better to paint over it, then when dry, mask off the rest, and paint black.

    I'm looking foreward to seeing the results in april.

    Here's a pic of that mask. It is the same type as professional car sprayers use, and will protect you from the Cyanide given off by the paint. I also bought to go with it, a filter, as you don't want to breathe the little spits of compressor oil!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Quick paint job anyone ????-spray-mask.jpg  
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

  17. #17
    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Come to think of it, if you're worried about the toxic cloud, send ang and the little one over to your mother in laws place, and invite the mother in law over to give you a hand. But make sure you only buy 1 mask
    john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    A brief note on MIG; sometimes an overused weld medium and seen as the home restorer's friend.

    Because of the way it sets so hard, I believe it may induce subsequent corrosion by creating areas of great stress adjacent to the weld material. You can reduce this stress in two ways.

    First, is not to cool it by slapping a wet rag on the weld. A jet of compressed air is much gentler on the panel. Secondly, MIG may be "annealed" with the finest oxy tip in a panel basher's kit. Heat it to a dull (darker) cherry, and allow to air cool. It then becomes less internally stressed and more malleable.

    I have a friend who repairs BIG bandsaw blades for a sawmill, and these need massive amounts of flex and durability. He put me onto this annealing process for beads of MIG, commmenting that they usually use this technique instead of flame welding.

    A skilled MIG operator may be subconsciously stress relieving a bead by knowing exactly when and how much to hammer as it cools, but for us weekenders this is more a shot in the dark!

    Regards, Adam.

  19. #19
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Thanks Guys,

    Addo I'm not to concerned about the area become stressed. It really is only for decoration and will be under no tension in use (yes I understand 'stressed' means it's constantly under stress until it crack). It should be ok. If I was welding a big section in I'd just plug weld it in a few spots allow room for contraction/expansion ... After all simple spot welds is all they used to actually build the car in the first place.

    Smiffy, the reason the reason 2pack is so dangerous is not only does a not get filtered by a charcoal mask, it also gets obsorbed by the skin. It particually attacks the whites of you eyes. Seriously, I looked into it in depth a couple of year back, and the small amount I found out about the horendously toxic sh!t is I NEVER WANT TO USE IT. Make sure when you paint with it you use some painters goggles to protect your eyes, and make sure every bit of skin on your body is covered ... You basically need a space suit against it Dunno about you but I intend to be around to watch my kids grow up.

    Addo, I agree, acrylic doesn't last, and tree sap/bird sh!t destroys it in record time. However the car is now at the point where "any paint is better than no paint". Paying someone else to do this work simply isn't an option. And to have the car relagated to "when they get time" could mean months without a car. Plus if you do it yourself, you know any suspect areas (eg: the bonnet edge I'm in the process of doing) are done properly and not just bogged over.

    If your thinking acrylic doesn't give a good finish though your dead wrong... It polishes up like a mirror ... I prefer the look of a highly polished arcylic car over a 2pack car anyday (It looks 'right' particually on older cars). It's a lot of work to keep in good condition though.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  20. #20
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    If anyone has stainless strips painted black on there car, Neil on the CX list says he used smooth hamerite on his and it hasn't lifted ... The car looks almost ok'ish enough (he sent me a piccie)

    I'm concerned his car has never been wet though so maybe it will lift

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Quick paint job anyone ????-cgat1.jpg  
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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  21. #21
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    If you use a decent self etching primer you should stand some lind of chance with it, after all, that's supposed to be the kinds of things self etching is made for and you can also get it in black but problem then is, which is primer and which is top coat????


    Alan S
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  22. #22
    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Thanks Guys,

    Smiffy, the reason the reason 2pack is so dangerous is not only does a not get filtered by a charcoal mask, it also gets obsorbed by the skin. You basically need a space suit against it Dunno about you but I intend to be around to watch my kids grow up.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    I have a healthy desire for life, don't you worry!
    This isn't a charcoal filter, you actually breathe from the compressor.
    There is a soft foam seal around the visor, and the positive air pressure stops the outside polluted air getting in. Agreed about avoiding skin contact though! I'll be getting some disposable overalls from the paint suppliers.
    john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

  23. #23
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
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    15,346

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    Bloody family ...

    I went to use my angle grinder with the wire brush in it yesterday ... Not there I remember by brother said he borrowed 'cos there was two of them there ... Bog the repairs just now go to grab the speed file .... Where the bloody hell has that gone I've got two of them. I've spent literally the last 1/2dozen free weekends cleaning the shed and putting everything where I can find it. Looks like it's been greatly appreciated by the family 'cos now they can find stuff easily

    Why both identical speed files are gone is beyond me (wouldn't you just take one ??). They have definatly been 'borrowed' though 'cos all the sandpaper for them is gone too Best bit is the sh!thead is away. Maybe I'll go over and see how easy his shed is to break into and 'borrow' them back betcha there's no sandpaper left though (it's about 70cents a sheet so adds up quickly).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  24. #24
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Jun 2005
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    Don't remind me!
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    16,626

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    I didn't mean to run off acrylic paints. Nitro is actually even better for gloss than TPA (as evidenced by RR's choice of it as a finish for so many years) but it doesn't last for squat. Just that initial cure time with acrylic is the worry; for a few weeks everything from hard water through to guano makes a visible mark. A really good clear/base system in 2K is hard to beat IMO - as new prestige cars so nicely demonstrate. BTW, Dulon used to do a Premium clearcoat (maybe still offer?) that was quite affordable and appreciably nicer than the regular one.

    At least as the substrate is relatively sound 2K, the solvents won't migrate inwards - meaning initial cure won't be too bad. You'll need bugger-all primer, save for spot repairs and a light coat all over.

    Cheers, Adam.

  25. #25
    Member mork63ukCGAT's Avatar
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    Jan 2006
    Location
    Hull UK
    Posts
    74

    Icon12

    [/quote]
    I'm concerned his car has never been wet though so maybe it will lift

    seeya,
    Shane L.[/quote]

    been used all year round, driven to the NEC classic car show in November twice; the last time in torrential rain for 2 hours
    and tested over 160, leave you to guess kph or not?

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