XM V6 Vs Pug 605 V6
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  1. #1
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Default XM V6 Vs Pug 605 V6

    G'day Citroenites,

    In my endless pursuit of knowledge about the later variants of the PRV V6, it has come to my attention that the motors used in the early 605s and early XMs were supposedly the same engine.

    Why then are they rated at different power outputs?

    1994 Peugeot 605 3.0 litre V6 - 127kW, 245 Nm 93mm x 73mm, CR 9.5:1
    1994 Citroen XM 3.0 litre V6 - 123kW, 235 Nm 93mm x 73mm, CR 9.5:1

    On a similar topic, has anyone ever had the intake manifold off and looked down the intake throats of their PRV equipped XM (or 605 for that matter), to see whether or not the 3 litre is strangled with what the Swedes call the "swirlkanaal" (big hump around the intake valve stem) that the B280F Volvos were cursed with?

    Thanks in advance.

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    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupť - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

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  2. #2
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    Scott Im not sure on the engine particulars. I have been in both cars and driven both and the XM is far superior. Fantastic apointments and great suspension.

  3. #3
    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Hey,

    I have got a question:

    Well if those specs are correct between the two cars (bore size etc etc) so what would cause the power difference?

    This got me thinking, would the hydraulic pump be sapping any power from the engine. I dont know really... It seems possible as when the airconditiioning is switched on - it sapps power from the motor. Doesnt the hydraulic pump use a similar system to air-con as the hydraulic system is belt driven off the crank (correct me if im wrong?) and the air con is belt driven as well?

    So what would cause the decrease in power? Is it the hydraulics sapping power from the engine?

    Stalled (Im probably very wrong here - please help me out )
    2005 Renault Clio 182 Cup

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  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
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    The hydraulic pump uses some power, naturally, but how much is hard to say.

    I've heard figures between 1/2hp to about 2hp, but not sure what pump type that is for, as the larger pumps with more pistons and pumping capacity need more hp to drive them...

    The thing is though, while you're driving along the pump is not under load 95% of the time, it is only under load while topping up the pressure, and when the regulator cuts out the load comes off.

    So you might get 1-2 seconds of extra load once every several minutes depending on how leaky your hydraulic system is...so I don't see how it could account for 4KW of missing power.

    Its more likely to be a simpler explanation, for example Citroen being more conservative in their ratings than Pegeot .... they've always been very conservative about horsepower ratings

    Or it could be something like different gearbox losses assuming that power is measured after the gearbox.

    Regards,
    Simon
    1998 Xantia Mk2 V6 Auto Exclusive

  5. #5
    Member WESTON89's Avatar
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    We'd had XM V6s and had a 605 that we didn't use for too long as it needed a gearbox and was too much hassle to mess around with. I don't see how the outputs can be any different as the cars are virtually indentical, minus the hydraulics. When we scraped the 605 I was surprised to see how much was just the same underneath.

    The engines were likely tested on the same machine at PSA!! STALLED's idea of the hydraulic pump seems to be the logical answer. Or it could be Citroen understating the engine's capabilities again, like with the CX.

    Hmmm.......puzzling.

    Dom

    P.S. Anyone want a leather interior for a 605?!!

  6. #6
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsydney
    Scott Im not sure on the engine particulars. I have been in both cars and driven both and the XM is far superior. Fantastic apointments and great suspension
    I'm only concerned about the engine. The citroen must be quite impressive, I've driven a 605 and it was sensational.
    Quote Originally Posted by stalled
    Is it the hydraulics sapping power from the engine?
    It would seem unusual for a company to quote their power figures from the engine with the accessories and ancilliaries attached. Generally the figure provided is from the bare engine on an engine (not chassis) dynamometer, or sometimes even theoretical.
    Quote Originally Posted by mandrake
    Citroen being more conservative in their ratings than Pegeot
    Being both produced and marketed by PSA, that would seem very unlikely.
    Quote Originally Posted by mandrake
    Or it could be something like different gearbox losses assuming that power is measured after the gearbox.
    Gearboxes are identical, as are final drive ratios and wheel and tyre profiles. And again, the figure is unlikely to be an "at the wheels" figure.
    Anyone want a leather interior for a 605?!!
    Hell yes! But you're in the UK What colour is it?

    My only other thought is that perhaps my figures are dodgy. Does anyone have any more literature that has either Citroen XM or Peugeot 605 specifications? I would like to get to the bottom of this one, I just don't understand how the "same" engines can be so different.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupť - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

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  7. #7
    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu
    Hell yes! But you're in the UK What colour is it?

    .
    I think it might be a bit big for me to put in my luggage. Shame really, as I will be in Adelaide in 14 weeks time, and I know where that interior is!
    john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Yeah smiffy can't afford the space ... especially seeing he's going to bring a CX GTi turbo interior out for me

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  9. #9
    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Yeah smiffy can't afford the space ... especially seeing he's going to bring a CX GTi turbo interior out for me

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    I wish you'd said that a few weeks back, I had one going spare!
    As it is, I will be bringing out for you those 3 dashboard pockets! If you can think of anything else you need, now's the time to say so! john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

  10. #10
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smiffy1071
    I wish you'd said that a few weeks back, I had one going spare!
    As it is, I will be bringing out for you those 3 dashboard pockets! If you can think of anything else you need, now's the time to say so! john s
    Can you fit a whole (rusty) parts car in for me ...

    Yeah I saw the interior on ebay, however the cost of cartage would probably cost more than my car is worth

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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  11. #11
    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Hmmm, I've just got a 1:43 scale model of my car, that ought to fit!

    Have you got any literature on the series 2 CX's? I could bring my 1985 brochure, for you to copy.....
    I even have a road test for the turbo featuring C216 NAN.

    I'm scrapping a very rusty 22TRS very soon, as I need the space. I doubt much would be the same for the turbo car though! john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

  12. #12
    farmerdave
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    [QUOTE=Demannu]
    It would seem unusual for a company to quote their power figures from the engine with the accessories and ancilliaries attached. Generally the figure provided is from the bare engine on an engine (not chassis) dynamometer, or sometimes even theoretical./QUOTE]

    I understand there are differences in this between DIN and JIS (japan) also SAE in terms of what accessories are fitted and what is provided externally.
    For some reason, I do recall that DIN is measured in the form that the engine goes into the car- which would explain the slight difference.

    Farmerdave

  13. #13
    Local Tyrant gibgib's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smiffy1071
    I wish you'd said that a few weeks back, I had one going spare!
    As it is, I will be bringing out for you those 3 dashboard pockets! If you can think of anything else you need, now's the time to say so! john s
    Can you bring in a 2CV chassis
    Just had a quote of AUD$1100 freight landed & in my ute tray at a Brisbane port!

  14. #14
    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gibgib
    Can you bring in a 2CV chassis
    Just had a quote of AUD$1100 freight landed & in my ute tray at a Brisbane port!
    I may need one of those myself before too long! The international 2cv meeting will be held in Sweden next year, and I want to go! I just need a suitable vehicle to go in......perhaps a nice custard & plum one.
    Now, who owns one of those john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

  15. #15
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    Just wondering if it could have something to do with the conversion from hp to KW.

    Check to see if the hp ratings are similar - I've seen discrepencies with other cars/specifications.

    6053.0 has 170hp and is indeed sensational to drive - better even than the XM. (ducking for cover, but it's true!)

    The 24 valve engine is quoted as having 200hp.

    Patrick
    605SVE

  16. #16
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone for their replies.

    I'm hoping soon to become very intimate with the insides of an XM motor, so if there's anything in there holding it back, I'll find it and fix it

    I will be running it with a different set of accessories, and in a RWD configuration in my 505. I have decided to make the jump to 3 litre from 2.8, because more cubes equals more fun!
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupť - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    It could be any manner of things, more aggressive ignition timing in the ecu, more restrictive cats in the exhaust...

    As for the question on inlet ports, they do not suffer the hump around the valve guide..

    If you want a good engine for a turbo conversion, the best one to go for is the Laguna V6. It has the same large ports and valves, and 3.0 capacity, but the compression is lowered to 7.6:1 as standard..
    Last edited by David Gentleman; 24th January 2006 at 09:40 PM.

  18. #18
    UFO
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    Fitting a turbo under the bonnet of a V6 XM would also require brutal use of a shoehorn.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  19. #19
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Gentleman
    As for the question on inlet ports, they do not suffer the hump around the valve guide
    Thanks a lot David!

    Now I need to confirm that we got the same engines in Australia as you did in the UK. Australia is very strict on emissions, and we generally get the same as a "California" car.

    For example, the Volvo 760 and early 960s had a B280F, with the "swirlkanaal" in the intake, whereas most of the world got the B280E, with higher compression and heads as you describe the 605.

    Do you know the power ratings of the 605 and XM in the UK? This would confirm that we get the same engine here, and therefore that I am getting the right engine for my car!!

    Cheers
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupť - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  20. #20
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Gentleman
    If you want a good engine for a turbo conversion, the best one to go for is the Laguna V6. It has the same large ports and valves, and 3.0 capacity, but the compression is lowered to 7.6:1 as standard..
    The data that I have on the Laguna here has exactly the same specs as a 605, including 9.5:1 compression ratio. Do you have any more information on this?
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupť - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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