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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Default France Trip....

    Hi Guys, my daughter left for France today, a school excursion for 2 weeks. She's going to report to me how few CXs she will see over there.
    Cheers...George 1/8th

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    P.S....Does anyone know how much a camchain costs for a CX? Mine sounds like it's on the way out, at idle it rattles.

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    Fellow Frogger! sdabel's Avatar
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    Hope you gave her strict instructions to bring back bits and pieces you can't get over here. I still use the keyring I got from a Citroen dealer in Callais.

    Martin Bray used to stock timing chain kits for CX's, from memory they were less than $100 but that is a few years ago now.

    regards
    sean
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi George,

    I've never heard of a CX timing chain needing replacement. Especially given the milage on yours. I'd be checking the tensioner hasn't some how backed off.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    Hey guys
    The issue of replacing the timing chain on CX's alarmed me a little when I read in the "CX post purchase guide" by Ian Hill, which suggests that the chain needs replacing every 50 000km! This is indicated as George says by rattling at idle.
    Shanes years of experience ways heavy with me as well as the many years of a very knowledgeable CX owner down Jindabyne way who has owned many and never had to change the timing chain once.....even having clocked a couple over 500 000km! According to the guide he should've changed it 10 times! Alas one of the CX's still runs with the original and is well on it's way towards the 600 000km mark. So what gives? Not the timing chain, fingers crossed.
    Andy

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    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Default Timing chain and relay tester....

    Thanks, Sean, Shane and Andy....first I'll take the cover off and adjust the tensioner. I'll only replace the chain if it's really necessary. It's probably a gummed up oil-way stopping the oil pressure from working the tensioner properly.
    When I serviced the steering rack, I wasn't sure about the cars mileage. It wasn't the wear and tear that made the seals fail, it was their age. The rubber had hardened, and so lost it's nice rubberyness. This is what apparently happens, things either get worn out, or they rot away, or they harden, or split, or crack, or rust.
    So it's the old law of attrition at work. Whatever happens, things have to be eventually dismantled and have parts replaced. You just can't get around it.
    At least I'm working on a nice froggie car..it's worth it.
    I made up a relay tester, so I could leave the relays mounted where they are and just electrically test them , with the touch of a button. It's a very simple device. If anyone is interested, I'll draw up a wiring diagram, and photograph the parts.
    Everything can be bought from an electronics shop, and simply assembled. The beauty of relays is their simplicity.
    When I tested the tester, I found one bad relay out of 8. So it was a worthwhile exercise. Now both of my radiator fans are correctly controlled again as per the manufacturers specs, with no dodgy patch up wiring.
    Cheers...George.

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    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    I can tell you i only saw 1 CX the whole time I was there. They all must be shrink wrapped in Garages in France.
    That was only 2 weeks ago.

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    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy N
    Hey guys
    The issue of replacing the timing chain on CX's alarmed me a little when I read in the "CX post purchase guide" by Ian Hill, which suggests that the chain needs replacing every 50 000km! This is indicated as George says by rattling at idle.
    Shanes years of experience ways heavy with me as well as the many years of a very knowledgeable CX owner down Jindabyne way who has owned many and never had to change the timing chain once.....even having clocked a couple over 500 000km! According to the guide he should've changed it 10 times! Alas one of the CX's still runs with the original and is well on it's way towards the 600 000km mark. So what gives? Not the timing chain, fingers crossed.
    Andy
    A cam BELT I would expect to change every 50,000km or 30,000miles. In fact, the manufacturer recommends a longer interval, but I like to change them much more often, as I don't really trust them! I need to do that job on my TRS, as that has an OHC motor. The chain however, is a much more robost, and I think reliable way to do things, but yes, it can be slightly noisy! The only better way to move your valves is with a gear drive, so the chain is a good compromise. john s
    Last edited by smiffy1071; 17th January 2006 at 07:56 AM.
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

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    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smiffy1071
    A cam BELT I would expect to change every 50,000km or 30,000miles. In fact, the manufacturer recommends a longer interval, but I like to change them much more often, as I don't really trust them! I need to do that job on my TRS, as that has an OHC motor. The chain however, is a much more robost, and I think reliable way to do things, but yes, it can be slightly noisy! The only better way to move your valves is with a gear drive, so the chain is a good compromise. john s
    Hi John
    Excuse my ignorance but I am not sure what a cambelt is exactly!! I know it must be obvious, is it one of the 3 belts at the front (excluding the water pump to air-conditioner and water pump to alternator belts)? I haven't 100% worked out how the camshaft works in the CX or any car for that matter although I have a vague idea but mostly from looking at the diagrams in the Haynes manual!
    I had another look at the post-purchase guide http://www.cybernex.net.au/clubs/ccc...rts/cxbuy.html and it says it clearly under "Startup and run checks"
    :"The camshaft drives all auxiliaries, so the timing chain is under far greater load than normal cars, and requires replacement about every 50,000km. Rattling on idle indicates replacement time".

    Is this simply an error and do you think the timing chain and cambelt could've got confused? What is involved with changing a cambelt and where can I get one and at what price approximately?
    Regards, Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy N
    Hi John
    Excuse my ignorance but I am not sure what a cambelt is exactly!! I know it must be obvious, is it one of the 3 belts at the front (excluding the water pump to air-conditioner and water pump to alternator belts)? I haven't 100% worked out how the camshaft works in the CX or any car for that matter although I have a vague idea but mostly from looking at the diagrams in the Haynes manual!
    I had another look at the post-purchase guide http://www.cybernex.net.au/clubs/ccc...rts/cxbuy.html and it says it clearly under "Startup and run checks"
    :"The camshaft drives all auxiliaries, so the timing chain is under far greater load than normal cars, and requires replacement about every 50,000km. Rattling on idle indicates replacement time".
    Is this simply an error and do you think the timing chain and cambelt could've got confused? What is involved with changing a cambelt and where can I get one and at what price approximately?
    Regards, Andy
    Hi Andy,

    The CX 2400 and 2500 don't have a cambelt, (otherwise known as a timing belt) they have a timing chain instead.

    Most (all?) modern cars these days have toothed belts driving overhead camshafts - the camshaft is directly over the head of the engine.

    The theory behind the adoption of timing belts is that they are quieter than timing chains, the downside is that they wear out and break, doing serious damage to the engine in the process. (Bent valves, punching holes in the piston tops etc)

    Chains, while noiser almost never break even at extremely high mileage although they can get noiser with age. On the other hand a timing belt is *guarenteed* to break sooner or later, and if you're over the recommended changing interval sods law says that it will be sooner.

    The 2400 and 2500 CX engines are also a throwback in that they are not overhead cam engines - the camshaft is about halfway up the back side of the engine block and the valves are driven via the rockers with short pushrods. (A lot of engines these days don't use rockers either, let alone pushrods)

    The downside of this is that they wont rev as high as an overhead cam engine and the upside is...... well... I don't know if there is an upside. (shorter chain perhaps ?) It's just the way engines were designed in the days of the DS where the basic design of the engine originated.

    The 2000 and 2200 CX engines on the other hand are a completely different design (not to be confused with the 2400/2500) with overhead cams and I think from memory a timing belt as well.

    While it might be simple in design, (some might even say primitive) I rather like the 2400/2500 CX engines....even the lesser performing ones ooze torque and they're about as rugged and reliable as you can get...

    Regards,
    Simon
    Last edited by Mandrake; 17th January 2006 at 02:21 PM.
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  10. #10
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Simon,

    the CX2000 motor == DSpecial 2.0litre ... CX2200 == DS21 (there the same size), CX2400 == DS23 ... They are all basically the same motor. They all have a mid mounted camshaft with a chain and pushrods. The CX2500 is a bored out version of the same motor.

    The motors your thinking of are the Douvrin motor as fitted to the Renault Fuego, Renault 25, Renault 21 etc, etc, etc ... There are an overhead cam motor with a cambelt. They were also never sold in Australia so mentioning them will just comfuse us

    To make matters more complicated, the CX2200 deisel we have has a gear driven camshaft (better again), however the CX2500's have a cambelt and mid mounted camshaft.

    Is everyone confused yet

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    Fellow Frogger! Trixie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandrake
    Hi Andy,

    The CX 2400 and 2500 don't have a cambelt, (otherwise known as a timing belt) they have a timing chain instead.

    Most (all?) modern cars these days have toothed belts driving overhead camshafts - the camshaft is directly over the head of the engine.


    Regards,
    Simon
    Not all. Subaru reckon its other advantage is it allows the motor to be more compact as the belt is 18mm narrower..... Oh and the chain is of course a 'profound mechanism'

    http://www.subaru-global.com/about/parts/12.html
    John

    2005 Renaultsport Clio 182 Cup - French Racing Blue
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Hi Simon,

    the CX2000 motor == DSpecial 2.0litre ... CX2200 == DS21 (there the same size), CX2400 == DS23 ... They are all basically the same motor. They all have a mid mounted camshaft with a chain and pushrods. The CX2500 is a bored out version of the same motor.
    Hi Shane,

    Are you absolutely sure about that ? I'd have to go around to Dad's and have a look at some of his original CX brochures and books but I'm pretty certain that the 2000cc and 2200cc Petrol CX's, at least in New Zealand were definately belt driven OHC of a completely different design to the DS based 2400 and 2500 engines.

    I'll have a look next time I'm there anyway as you've got me wondering

    Regards,
    Simon
    1998 Xantia Mk2 V6 Auto Exclusive

  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Yeah,

    I am sure, I have several of them in my backyard. The Douvrin engined car you speak of was sold as the CX Athena in the UK. It looks quite different under the bonnet as the motor is very different. It's an all alloy (ie: light) engine .... Actually that's quite a good motor, though not as tough as the Citroen unit.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    1000+ Posts Bruce H's Avatar
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    Home yesterday from 4 weeks and 5600 kilometres in France - saw fewer than a dozen CXs, including the three I saw on the drive past Trets. One Prestige in Paris. Saw a couple of Dyanes and the same number of Meharis, about 6Amis and about the same number of Acadianes. Would have seen about two dozen 2CVs, but few of them were actually on the road. Visas weren't particularly heavy on the ground. A couple of LNAs. About a half dozen GS/As. BXs are starting to get a bit scarce, particularly series 1s. XMs aren't all that common either - lots of those high mileage, company car XMs seem to be dead and gone. Only saw one SM other than the couple I saw at Trets. Saw 3 immaculate Ds, and a couple of sruffier ones. Didn't see any Tractions on the road. A couple of H vans in caryards. Saw few C2s, a couple of C1s, lots of other modern ones.

    I had a 206 1.4 HDI on TT - went well.

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    Fellow Frogger! Paul Smith's Avatar
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    When we were in France for the DS 50th one of my favourite memories was seeing a CX Turbo on the Autoroute - it was just near St Quentin, the speed limit was 130 and he had given it the boot really hard - bum really down - must have been doing 150+, hotly pursued (not being caught ) by a BM 5 series.
    Paul Smith

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Smith
    When we were in France for the DS 50th one of my favourite memories was seeing a CX Turbo on the Autoroute - it was just near St Quentin, the speed limit was 130 and he had given it the boot really hard - bum really down - must have been doing 150+, hotly pursued (not being caught ) by a BM 5 series.
    Ah yes, we remember it well. Shane would have been going OFFFFFFFFFFFF

    I know I was and so were the others in the C3 I was driving at the time.
    Craig K
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    Fellow Frogger! Andy N's Avatar
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    Hey guys
    I wonder if George has taken the cover off the timing chain housing yet?
    I did it when I was down at the snow, man there are so many nuts and bolts holding it on but it is easy to get off eventually. When I cranked the engine with the cover off I found out why it had to be secured this way... It stops all the oil spraying out the side of the engine amongst other obvious things.
    The chain looked good and now I know where that sound comes from... it's not an annoying rattle though, so all is well. Is it true that the chain tensioner is hydraulically operated? I wonder if George adjusted this, would it solve the rattle? Having a good look for any wear in the chain would be the first place to start I guess. Keep us posted on how you go with it George. Andy

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    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Smith
    When we were in France for the DS 50th one of my favourite memories was seeing a CX Turbo on the Autoroute - it was just near St Quentin, the speed limit was 130 and he had given it the boot really hard - bum really down - must have been doing 150+, hotly pursued (not being caught ) by a BM 5 series.
    You should see me first thing in the morning, if I'm late for work....200kph is quite often a good way to make up time! john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

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    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Yeah,

    I am sure, I have several of them in my backyard. The Douvrin engined car you speak of was sold as the CX Athena in the UK. It looks quite different under the bonnet as the motor is very different. It's an all alloy (ie: light) engine .... Actually that's quite a good motor, though not as tough as the Citroen unit.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    I'm not confused at all!! Yes, the early cx2000, and cx2200 have an engine very similar to the later 2400 and 2500.
    The later series 1 cars were the CX20 "reflex" (poverty model) and CX22 "athena" (you get some toys in this one). Actually, the CX22 was also available in "pallas" spec.
    By the time the series 2 cars came along, they ditched the names, for more boring letters, like RE, RS, TRS, RD, etc.
    Although you lot down under never had the OHC engined CX, I can tell you it's actually quite a nice engine, VERY economical, and it's quiet too!!!
    It's no rocket ship, but you can make good progress in it.
    115bhp, 115mph, 30mpg (average).
    john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

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    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy N
    Hi John
    Excuse my ignorance but I am not sure what a cambelt is exactly!! I know it must be obvious, is it one of the 3 belts at the front (excluding the water pump to air-conditioner and water pump to alternator belts)? I haven't 100% worked out how the camshaft works in the CX or any car for that matter although I have a vague idea but mostly from looking at the diagrams in the Haynes manual!
    I had another look at the post-purchase guide http://www.cybernex.net.au/clubs/ccc...rts/cxbuy.html and it says it clearly under "Startup and run checks"
    :"The camshaft drives all auxiliaries, so the timing chain is under far greater load than normal cars, and requires replacement about every 50,000km. Rattling on idle indicates replacement time".

    Is this simply an error and do you think the timing chain and cambelt could've got confused? What is involved with changing a cambelt and where can I get one and at what price approximately?
    Regards, Andy
    The cambelt I was refering to, only applies to OHC (overhead cam) engines.
    Your car, is an OHV (overhead valve) and so doeasn't have a cambelt.
    The rattling you speak of, might suggest that the chain tensioner needs a little tweek. I've never done this job on a car, but I have on several motorbikes. It's not difficult to do, as long as you read the manual CAREFULLY.
    I immagine you access the tensioner mechanism through the drivers side front wheel arch. john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

  21. #21
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    I pretty certain the DS/CX motor has a simple spring applying tension to the chain (no need to wait for oil pressure to build up and prevent chain rattle like early Magnas). It's so simple it's unheard of for it to break.

    My Guess is Georges has been "serviced" in the past .... So it just needs George to "unservice" it.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    Shane
    What do you think of Pauls comments about the CX he saw in France?

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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsydney
    Shane
    What do you think of Pauls comments about the CX he saw in France?
    I think the CX turbo wasn't trying!! john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsydney
    Shane
    What do you think of Pauls comments about the CX he saw in France?


    He obviously wanted to overtake some car .... I don't hang around playing with myself when there's cars to be overtaken either (I just cry over the fuel gauge readings later down the track ). 4th gear runs out pretty quickly when your driving hard, and 5th gear That's seriously instant license loss (many times over) speeds. I've always backed off way before it runs out of puff in 5th gear. I wouldn't be suprised if it simply bounced off the rev limiter in 5th at over 140mph.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Tha fastest I had mine upto, was 130mph, I chickened out! john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

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