CitroŽn GS Birotor Wankel
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    Tadpole Norwegian Bear's Avatar
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    Icon6 CitroŽn GS Birotor Wankel

    Hi

    Is there anyone in Australia who drive a CitroŽn GS with Wankel rotary engine???

    If so:
    http://hem.passagen.se/chapron/birotor.htm

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    Last edited by Norwegian Bear; 1st December 2005 at 05:52 AM.

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    Fellow Frogger! BlackC2's Avatar
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    What a wonderful little car! Those press shots look great!
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    Previous Frogs: 1999 Peugeot 306 Cabriolet; 1996 Peugeot 406ST, 1991 Peugeot 205Si, 2005 Citroen C2 VTR, 1984 Renault Fuego GTX, 1985 Renault Fuego GTX.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    There is one out here. It's apparantly the only RHD GS-Birotor in the world. It's usually on the market for sale, however I don't think it often changes hands (it's a lot of $$$ for a GS, even one with a rotory motor).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    Wouldn't it have been nice if citroen hadn't gone bankrupt in the early 70s?
    I know they were working on a tri-rotor engine for the CX, which I bet would have been very fast indeed!!! john s
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    Tadpole Norwegian Bear's Avatar
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    Default Birotor

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    There is one out here. It's apparantly the only RHD GS-Birotor in the world. It's usually on the market for sale, however I don't think it often changes hands (it's a lot of $$$ for a GS, even one with a rotory motor).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Hi
    Yes I see one here later I was searching. Only one in the world? If he is going to sell this one, he will be almoust rich!!! I can tell that my mother owned a CitroŽn Birotor once with a semi-automatic gearbox. It was very few of them and they where wery, wery expensive. More than twise of an ordinarly GS. It was imported though. I heard that CitroŽn bought many of them back and scraped them. For now we having one in Sweden. If it a GZ or an GS I dont know. Myself had a BX 19 TRZ. A very, very good car.
    http://www.citroenet.org.uk/passenge.../birotor1.html

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    I gather that RHD Birotor wasn't a factory one. It was made by a Citroen employee in the mid eighties by putting all the Birotor parts into a RHD GS 1220 bodyshell... must have been a huge job.

    Paul Smith may know more.

    Chris
    GS 1220 break. Beige cars go faster

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    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    No, Not True,

    The RHD GS Birotor was built with an original factory LHD body shell. It was the only part on the car that wasn't new. Although Citroen held stocks of new shells, they wouldn't supply one.

    The car started life as probably a pre production car, as it was white, and white was not available as a colour, even though there was a larger range of colours available in '75. The car featured in the workshop manuals was a white car.

    The car was found at a French Citroen dealer, as a scrapped buy back. Citroen tried to but back all Birotors, so as not to have to supply parts, but wasn't sucessfull.

    Just about every other part on the car was replaced with new parts....the rack was made from a CX manual rack, inside a remachined, re-sectioned and rotated Birotor rack. The Birotor shares very little with a GS. Probably only the bootlid, the doors and lights etc. The rest of the mechanicals is almost pure CX, especially at the front, except the Birotor came first of course.

    It wasn't built by a Citroen employee, but the Assistant Parts Manager at Bryson Citroen in Sydney in the very late '70.

    And yes it is true that the CX was meant to be a Tri Rotor Rotary, The old DS engine was dropped in at the last minute, when the plugged was pulled on the rotary engine.

    Greg
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    All about Wankel engines and their applications :
    http://www.der-wankelmotor.de/index.html

    (yes it requires a brush-up in your German reading capabilities )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg
    It wasn't built by a Citroen employee, but the Assistant Parts Manager at Bryson Citroen in Sydney in the very late '70.
    Picky, picky

    Chris
    GS 1220 break. Beige cars go faster

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    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Chris,

    I'm not sure whats 'Picky Picky' about my reply on the RHD Birotor. I cringe at the miss-information that is often posted at Aussie Frog's Citroen Forum.....it appears that the motto is 'Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"

    I would have thought that 'Thanks for filling us in with the correct info" might have been more appropriate, after all, I built the RHD Birotor, so I should know!

    As my Citroen work experience includes time with Citroen Cars Citco, Bryson Citroen, Manager of Maxim Motors Sydney (Jim Reddiex), and National Parts Manager for Franzcar Imports, the Citroen Importer before Ateco, and original partner in Chevron Motors, and either built, restored, or owned most models, I think I'm in the position to know most thing Citroen.

    But I wouldn't call myself a Citroen Expert....I'll leave that to others in this Forum

    Greg Fienberg
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    Greg

    You are correct on your statement that too often internet forums in general do not encourage acknowledgement of factual information. Thanks for setting the record straight.

    "Chinese whsipers" is one of the greatest banes of forums or any area where people get together to swap unchecked information that usually is verbally transferred at some stage.

    Of course we must also acknowledge that from time to time people come up with a viable solution to a problem that may be caused by a part no longer being available etc etc and rarely do people pass on thanks for that sort of information exchange too.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg
    Chris,

    I cringe at the miss-information that is often posted at Aussie Frog's Citroen Forum.....it appears that the motto is 'Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"
    I resemble that remark
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    Greg,

    Apologies if I came across like a teller of tales... not the intention. Someone posted a bit about that BiRotor on the GS Yahoo list a while back, I was repeating gist rather than substance

    It still sounds like a huge job, you must really have wanted that car!

    Chris
    GS 1220 break. Beige cars go faster

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg
    But I wouldn't call myself a Citroen Expert....I'll leave that to others in this Forum Greg Fienberg PUTTY
    With that modesty, you'll be called something else before 'expert'...
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    The nice and very very interesting website of the official french CitroŽn Wankel club (Rotatif Club):

    http://www.rotativementvotre.org/index.php?ref=

    ...but its only in french language unfortunately.


    And just for the pleasure, take on a GS' French-forum...



    (three GS Birotor and one M35!)





    (Simply "Magnifique")



    (and now four GS Birotor!!!)


    And even if in France the car is also very rare to find (especially in good condition), it doesn't remain too expensive to buy (~5000Ä). The big problem being the maintenance and the shortage of spare parts.
    In fact in France, the GS start (a little bit) to be recognized in the world of the collection after a too long period of contempt and destruction.

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    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Chris,
    Thanks for your reply, yes I did want a Birotor badly, but I wanted an SM even more. It was the mid seventies, and I had an SM lined up through Ken Murden (The MD at Citco). At that time you could buy an SM very cheaply, their engine troubles were notorious. Unfortunately, Citroen pulled the plug on SM production, and the second hand prices skyrocketed.

    Ken told me of yards full of Birotor buybacks in France, but Citroen wouldn't budge on selling one. It was at this time I realised that Birotor parts were still available ex France through spare parts, their prefix was GZ (the only time the GZ was used). I subsequently bought a parts book, and what started out as a few Birotor badges ended up as a full on obcession to build one from parts.

    Ordering parts became easier, when I joined Brysons, and easier still when I was promoted from the workshop as a mechanic, to Assistant Parts Manager.

    Citroen refused to supply a new body shell, even though they showed stock of both the '74, and the '75 shells. The difference was the seat mounts....'74 cars had tombstone buckets, based on the earlier GS seats, '75 cars had the later type seat mounts.

    The body shell situation was taken care of by John Vanechop (Chevron Motors). Citroen had by then given the buybacks to Citroen dealers for parts scrapping( Interier, lights and some panels). The chassis number had been ground off all the buybacks. John had a friend in France, who arranged the purchase. The shipping I organised through Bryson's Citroen shipping agents.

    The cars was rebuilt with a new engine, the gearbox and radiator being the only major mechanical part not replaced.

    Have attached three photos of the car, the first in France being loaded for shipment to Australia.

    The second, dismantling the body shell from the mechanicals in Bryson Citroen's bond store. You might just be able to make out heaps of unsold CX CMatics in the background.

    The third is the finished car. I regret not keeping the car original. But as I said before, the white wasn't a production colour, but I didn't stick to the interier trim colours either.

    The Birotor was wonderfull to drive, but it had a tendency to veer left into every garage it went past. Fuel consumption on the open road was much better. Power steering would have also helped a lot, as I fitted the car with CX alloy wheels and larger lower profile tyres.

    Citroens biggest mistake was that it looked like a GS....the amount of re-engineering that went into building the Birotor couldn't be justified. Even the bonnet hinged were reinforced, and the bonnet lock changed from a peg to a CX type, involving new pressings in the underbonnet skin.

    Had the Birotor been a new vehicle, which would probably have been cheaper to build than the massive reconstruction of a GS shell, It may well have been more sucessful, and not a major contributor to bankrupting the company.

    Greg
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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Citroën GS Birotor Wankel-gs-birotor-7.jpg   Citroën GS Birotor Wankel-gs-birotor-19.jpg   Citroën GS Birotor Wankel-gs-birotor.jpg  

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    Default Rotors and Citroens

    Hi Greg,

    thanks for the History of the BiRotor!

    I've been toying with the idea of fitting a tri-rotor (Mazda 20b) to a CX, to create the car that should have been.

    Would it be possible to get some details from you as to how the GZ is set up with regards to engine mounting, engine bay, and the connection(s) between Tranny and Engine?

    I have also heard rumours (chinese whispers ) of GZ's with Mazda engines fitted.... would be interested in any information on these as well.

    If (as mentioned) it is correct that the GZ's use CX tranny and steering - then looking at the mounting mechanism will tell me how to mount a rotary into a CX..... (and I figure a Tri-Rotor CX, would possibly Give a turbo more than a run for its money!... yum yum )

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    And you thought the SM was a tangle under the bonnet....
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlaloum
    Hi Greg,

    thanks for the History of the BiRotor!

    I've been toying with the idea of fitting a tri-rotor (Mazda 20b) to a CX, to create the car that should have been.

    Would it be possible to get some details from you as to how the GZ is set up with regards to engine mounting, engine bay, and the connection(s) between Tranny and Engine?

    I have also heard rumours (chinese whispers ) of GZ's with Mazda engines fitted.... would be interested in any information on these as well.

    If (as mentioned) it is correct that the GZ's use CX tranny and steering - then looking at the mounting mechanism will tell me how to mount a rotary into a CX..... (and I figure a Tri-Rotor CX, would possibly Give a turbo more than a run for its money!... yum yum )
    It'd certainly give it's thirst for petrol a run for it's money

    Should be faster with modern rotories, but do the modern rotories make decent torque down low yet ?? Would you end up with an annoying screamer that's a dog to drive around town

    How much does the RX8 weigh and how fast is it (given it's the latest incarnation of the rotory)

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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    RX8 189 bhp @7000, 0-60 7.2 139 mph (from an english mag)

    228 bhp @ 8200 0-60 6.4 145 mph

  21. #21
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I imagine the RX8 would weigh more than the CX ... So it probably would go quite well .... However for all the effort you would find it's no quicker than a CX GTi Turbo with a small boost increase (Machonics stage 1). I know which one is easier to do (a small screwdrive to adjust wastgate and a slightly modified ignition computer)...

    It'd be nice with a smooth rotary as opposed to a harsh & course old tractor engine though

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Greg,

    As the keeper of FIVE GS's

    Series 1
    GSpecial
    Series 2 Cmatic
    Series 2 4speed with X3 Body Kit

    It's nice to "meet" and have as a contributor on this forum someone of your knowledge and expertise....


    BX TZI Hatch
    BX TRI Hatch
    GS C-Matic

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    Putting a 20B into a CX - I have daydreamed about this before - I suspect that 20B engines are now pretty rare.

    The output figures are pretty good though!

    Here are some numbers form a Mazda site on the Eunos Cosmo, with either the 13B or 20B

    Years Available: 1990 to 1996
    Engine: 13B (1308cc) twin rotor (2 x 654cc) EFI Twin Sequential Turbos with Intercooler and 20B (1962cc) triple rotor (3 x 654cc) EFI Twin Sequential Turbos with Intercooler
    Transmission: 4 speed, triple mode electronically controlled auto
    Power (Approx.): 230hp (172kw) (13B), 300hp (224 kw) (20B)

    Torque (Approx.):217 Lb/Ft (294Nm) (13B), 297 Lb/Ft (402Nm) (20B)
    Weight (Approx.) Series 4: 1510 kg (13B Model), 1610 kg (20B Model)

    Chassis Prefix: JC-3SE / JC-3S (13B Model), JC-ESE / JC-ES (20B Model)
    Specification: Type E (Elegant) and Type S (Sports)
    Original Cost (Approx): Not sold here officially, it would have been around $100,000+ AUD when new
    Here's an Aussie (2003) test of a Cosmo 20B. I have only ever seen one on the road here.

    http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/porta...opDefault.aspx

    The round town fuel consumption of the 20B is over 16l/100km

    The RX8 is actually comparatively light - it weighs in at 1350KG, wich is not bad for a modern car.

    Paul
    (who has just added a very nice green GS wagon to the fleet - time to retire the G Special I fear)
    Paul Smith

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    1974 G Special 1220


    http://www.simplicitas.com.au

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    Default Mazda 20B

    Yep....

    20B TurboCX
    Torque 390Nm [email protected]
    Power 220kw [email protected]

    (specs on both tend to vary from site to site and reference to reference... but they are all close to the above)

    And of course the biggest flaw in the CX, is the agricultural engine with it's rough idle - such a smooth car, to be saddled with a 1930's engine.... What it was made for is the smoothness of a Rotary - and if this can be provided while also achieving more power than the Turbo....

    The biggest questions are still how to mount the engine - Complete engines are available (not common, but available) - with all the peripheral bits (Front Cut Cosmo) including ECU, turbo etc.... - but what is involved (and what will it cost!) to put this into my CX....

    Bye for now

    David

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    David,

    Work out the costs step by step (excluding the purchase price of engine) and then triple that figure and you'll be about right. I've done a few engine swaps and still use this formular - not jokeing.

    The logistics of engine mounting wont be too bad. Developing and adapter plate with apropriate starter motor is a bit tricky and getting someone compident to cut and adapt the 20B engine harness will be the trick. It's all the little bits that soak up the funds espcially with a turbo into a non turbo car (fuel tank return line, correct output fuel pump, pressure regulator, fuel filter, swirl pot, exhaust etc) and allow funds for dyno time so that the start up and sorting out dosent end up in a preignition disaster.

    I like the idea and think it has a lot of merit - main concern is if the type of power the 20b puts out will match the CX 5-speed box?

    Chris.
    1964 Type 3 Squareback. 1974 L Bug.

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