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Thread: CitroŽn GS Birotor Wankel

  1. #26
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    Hi Chris,

    thanks for the advice... yes I've been looking at budget with some trepidation - although I have some people keen on working on the project...

    I am looking at mating it with the ZF Auto rather than a 5 speed - I'm pretty sure it can handle the power based on period specs for other cars that used the 3HP22 ZF box (BMW 6/7 series).

    I also like to use my CX for daily driving if possible and the manual is a pain in the neck in traffic!

    Course someone suggested a $60k budget for this project..... which would kill it quite dead (save the money and get a C6 ....)

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    I am still looking for photo's of mountings etc - and the GZ being fundamentally a CX front end would provide some valuable indications!

    bye for now

    David

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    not that I know anything about much when it comes to Citroens, but I think if you wanted power you'd be better off getting a CX 25 GTI turbo, strengthening the engine, and running more boost. I would think it would be a quicker road to more power then a wankel, and you would retain some form of reasonable fuel economy that you otherwise wouldn't with the rotor. It seems you would be pissing a lot of $$$'s up the wall if you tried to do a rotary conversion, and then you possibly wouldn't even have a car that would drive as it should. As I said, I don't know much about CX's, but if I were aiming for a decent amount of power out of one i'd think that would be a better option

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    Hi Orestes,

    actually the most important thing to me, is having a silky smooth engine.... I've never been happy with the agricultural character of the CX engine.

    It really leads to a cognitive dissonance between the smooth suspension, steering, and styling of the car and the crude engine...

    The fact that the car was designed for a 3 rotor engine, and that there is such a beast "in the wild" makes it interesting, and the additional power would be nice!

    I drove a Merc 500SEC for a while, and the power/torque in a silky package is terribly addictive.....
    I prefer the way the CX handles, and drives, the DIRAVI steering is absolutely fabulous, the only thing missing is a smoother engine and a touch more torque.... (or maybe double.... )

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlaloum
    Hi Orestes,

    actually the most important thing to me, is having a silky smooth engine.... I've never been happy with the agricultural character of the CX engine.

    It really leads to a cognitive dissonance between the smooth suspension, steering, and styling of the car and the crude engine...

    The fact that the car was designed for a 3 rotor engine, and that there is such a beast "in the wild" makes it interesting, and the additional power would be nice!

    I drove a Merc 500SEC for a while, and the power/torque in a silky package is terribly addictive.....
    I prefer the way the CX handles, and drives, the DIRAVI steering is absolutely fabulous, the only thing missing is a smoother engine and a touch more torque.... (or maybe double.... )
    I'd be looking a sticking a HDi turbo deisel V6 in the CX if possible. I wouldn't even consider (for a second) a rotory ... The fuel a CX uses now is very hard on the hip pocket, to downgrade to an incredibly thirsty rotory simply isn't an option (for me).

    The question still is ... does the rotory have torque down low ?? It's it going to be a gutless pig for 90% of your driving, but good once it's high in it's rev range (which would make a sh!t of a car to drive).

    The great bit about the GTi Turbo is the ease you can idle around 'off boost' without any drama as there is still usable torque/power there.

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    Do it!! What a wonderful beast it would be. Its a shame that Citroen never went ahead with that NSU triple treat (its also a shame that VW killed NSU before it had a chance to build a triple rotor Ro80 ).

    The 20B is a pretty well sorted motor, and are fairly reliable from what I have heard. Have you considered running one sans turbo? May turn out to be a simpler installation and would still produce ample grunt.
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    I for one would like to see this happen .

    Bare in mind current gen 13b's (ala the rx8 renisys) and even the 20b in the cosmo could probably match the turbo citroen fuel economy wise.
    the current renisys engine apparently doesnt suffer the lack of torque the earlier generations did (usually solved by pegging the rev needle to RED and slipping one's foot of the clutch ;p ) , the 13b turbo engine could be another alternative , the engine is nicely packaged and space etc shouldnt be an issue .
    If yuo have a few friends that can lend a hand in the fabricating etc the project shouldnt be tooo expensive , I figure most parts (fuel return lines etc ) can be sourced of wrecked spec'd citroens , the most fabrication involved would be in the bellhousing/engine mounts.

    If you pick as much as you can out of the citreon part bin you should be fine .

    in NZ at least you can pick up a complete 13b turbo including loom for somewhere between $1500 > $3500 depending on source and the 20b's are around $5000.

    Funnily enough it could be worth inquiring at your local mazda agent too, it may well be as cheap to build up a engine from new bits , the housings I know are ~ $500 NZ new the rotors being the main other expensive part of the motor, most ancillieries could be sourced from wrecks etc or a dead engine .

    also re the efi gear if your that way inclinded check out www.msefi.com

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    The 20B is one superb engine and as long as you can get a suitable match to box ratios - then why not? Most folk don't take on projects like this for 'sensible' reasons or really give a rats about economy etc but if that is a concern then look at LPG forced induction set ups that have and are being used in VIC in 13B's with considerable success and economy. A stock 13b is quite economical until you stick your boot into it - goes from a 4cyl economy machine to a V8 guzzler in a nonosecond.

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    Default Wankel GS1220 ?

    There may have been, and it is interesting from the viewpoint of automotive history, but it would be a brave man whose interest was held for very long (over 12 months eg) In the early 1980s, I owned at least two NSU Ro80s (simultaneously, always less than perfect, always 'cheap') and learnt quickly of the flawed nature of that engine - twin rotor, 2-stroke, about one-lire capacity in relative terms (comparable with a more conventional 2-litre reciprocating 4-stroke.) Not having valves, and revs unlimited, under 10,000 k's and therefore not yet worn, they would spin to obscene revolutions through the Sportomatic 3-speed gearbox (vacuum activated clutch with torque converter, changes triggered by an electric switch in the gearstick knob, like a 1968 VW 1500 Beetle Automatic from the 'same' manufacturer/factory. But the rotor tip seals, suffered from 'chatter' in enthusiastic use, and a fresh engine could be 'dead' in six months of autobahn travel. The joke in Germany was shared by owners who would wave to other NSU R080 types, holding up a bunch of fingers to indicate how many engines they had needed as replacements. The Audi/NSU/VW operation almost went to the wall coming up with motors under warranty. Again, for those familiar with the background, Mazda persevered with the Wankel principle, and succeeded in resolving this huge fault, going on to build rotary engined cars in continuous production of at least 25 years so far. I even gained experience rebuilding one, although I was the 'understudy'. Also I have had several Citroen GS, and the 60 or so horsepower of the 1220 pulled it around very nicely. I don't think a rotary would have helped, except for the sake of being 'different'. Dave Long

  9. #34
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    I still think a rotary in a CX would suck big time.... You wan't torquey and effortless. Could you imagine driving a CX in traffic with it's "ordinary" gearchange and clutch, with a motor that needs to be revving at 7000rpm to get any performance out of it.

    I can't help but thing a factory petrol turbo would be vastly superior in every single way .................... and they already exist!! They even return better fuel economy than the standard non blown petrol CX's.

    Basically ... why bother?? A nice small modern lightweight V8 or direct injected 5banger would be much better ... smooth, quiet, powerful and economical if not driven hard.

    seeya,
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    Shane, to be 'original' the CX conversion would have to be a C-matic as in the GS Birotor. (I think). Therefore all you would have to do is beef up the C-matic a bit and alter the final drive gearing a lot. If you had the money it would be a brilliant thing to do and would have the cache of being a 'what might have been'. Just like a Traction V8.

    Today is the anniversary of the first commercial passenger in space. It only cost $20m but if you could afford it why not. A CX rotary is in the same class.

    I have the BP History of the Motor Car on VHS tape and the footage of the Mercedes C111 still makes the hair on my neck stand up every time I see it. Gorgeous vehicle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    Shane, to be 'original' the CX conversion would have to be a C-matic as in the GS Birotor. (I think). Therefore all you would have to do is beef up the C-matic a bit and alter the final drive gearing a lot. If you had the money it would be a brilliant thing to do and would have the cache of being a 'what might have been'. Just like a Traction V8.

    Today is the anniversary of the first commercial passenger in space. It only cost $20m but if you could afford it why not. A CX rotary is in the same class.

    I have the BP History of the Motor Car on VHS tape and the footage of the Mercedes C111 still makes the hair on my neck stand up every time I see it. Gorgeous vehicle

    Greg
    Your probably right The idea of the modifying cars is to end up with a superior car. I doubt there would be much discussion over the traction V8 for example not being better to drive than a big 6.

    Taking a torqueless at low revs rotary and putting it into a C-matic that starts in the manual geared cars 2nd gear ..... Sounds like a combination from hell. You'd never get the damn thing rolling, especially on a hill, especially with 5people in the car. It would work better in a GS that's a lot lighter in weight to start with. Maybe if you put a 2000rpm stall converter in so the motor can initially rev a little to get moving ................................. Then again, just think of a nice modern v8 or direction injected motor with 400Nm for 1800rpm ...... ... that would bloody move and be very effortless.

    This is not as interesting from a historical point of view for sure. However I don't think they would have ended up with a rotary in a CX regardless of he financial position of Citroen at the time. It simply wouldn't have suited the intended use of the car (ie: effortless cruiser with a gutless screamer in it).

    It' a shame they didn't stick a 6 or 8 cylinder GS motor into the CX. Could you imagine a 2.6 litre flat 8 in there

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    It' a shame they didn't stick a 6 or 8 cylinder GS motor into the CX. Could you imagine a 2.6 litre flat 8 in there
    There's a fellow in Adelaide currently building a flat 8 (two Alfa boxer engines) to put into an Alfasud.

    That should be something too...I suppose this will cue Alfasud jokes (sigh)...

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    No doubt the biggest issue is how on earth do you fit it in ..... It going to be bloody enormous lengthways

    The GS motor is a work of art, MASSIVE crank, overhead cams, no head gaskets, air cooled..... quite amazing really.

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    classic and sports car did an article on these a while back ,and i may be wrong but my impression was that the motor was east west and there was very little similarity to a GS.PUGS

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    Quote Originally Posted by XantiaHead View Post
    There's a fellow in Adelaide currently building a flat 8 (two Alfa boxer engines) to put into an Alfasud.

    That should be something too...I suppose this will cue Alfasud jokes (sigh)...

    Cheers,

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    Nice cars you have, and no, I won't start any Alfasud jokes, tempted as I might be.. I dunno about the idea of a flat 8 Alfasud. A mildly modified Alfasud ti was my introduction to torque steer 20 odd years ago and I can't imagine what twice the power would do. Also, the wonderful handling balance would be upset.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cme2c View Post
    Nice cars you have, and no, I won't start any Alfasud jokes, tempted as I might be.. I dunno about the idea of a flat 8 Alfasud. A mildly modified Alfasud ti was my introduction to torque steer 20 odd years ago and I can't imagine what twice the power would do. Also, the wonderful handling balance would be upset.

    John
    The Alfa engine will be mid mounted in the body, read an article about the custom crank build. I was at Lakeside raceway late last year and saw an Alfa Sud with a RWD mid mounted flat four, I immediately had fantasies of doing the same with a GS.

    I think a Mazda 20B in a CX would be awesome and suit the car. They have been put in stranger places, saw a TE Cortina at Willowbank once running a 20B and it seemed to have plenty of torque.


    Just read today in an old Wheels magazine the the Lancia Beta used a 5 speed version of the CX gearbox!

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    For me, the ultimate engine for a CX would be the Maserati motor from the SM. At the traffic lights, in neutral, a quick burst on the accelerator and you would have this "scalded cat" howl that only the well bred Italian cars have.

    Getting back to the original topic, I well remember seeing Greg's blue GS Birotor at Maxim Motors in Annandale, in the days when I needed a new torque convertor for the CX C-matic.

    John

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    Somewhere in my magnificently organised photo archives, I have a picture of that car in my garage during a Technical Day. If I ever find it, I will post it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post

    The question still is ... does the rotory have torque down low ?? It's it going to be a gutless pig for 90% of your driving, but good once it's high in it's rev range (which would make a sh!t of a car to drive).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Mazda's 20B triple-rotor appears to be rather grunty device, going by the info below.
    And thereís ample torque to go with the kilowatts Ė a maximum of 402Nm at 3500 rpm with over 390Nm available from just 2200 rpm...

    http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-L...7/article.html
    With over 380 N∑m (280 lb∑ft) of torque available at just 1800 rpm, the Cosmo [20B] could launch from standstill to freeway speeds quickly

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by nota View Post
    Mazda's 20B triple-rotor appears to be rather grunty device, going by the info below.
    That one has twin turbo chargers .... yep, that should fix low rev performance

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    Somewhere in my magnificently organised photo archives, I have a picture of that car in my garage during a Technical Day. If I ever find it, I will post it.
    the blue one ??

    last i heard it was in tassy, before that it was sitting in a paddock rusting away gracefully, the pics are probably still around here somewhere or they may have been lost in the crash

    the bloke that owned it when it was rusting away seemed to get very upset about people discussing such a rare car being treated like shit while in the background i think he had a DS doing same
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo View Post
    the blue one ??

    last i heard it was in tassy, before that it was sitting in a paddock rusting away gracefully, the pics are probably still around here somewhere or they may have been lost in the crash

    the bloke that owned it when it was rusting away seemed to get very upset about people discussing such a rare car being treated like shit while in the background i think he had a DS doing same

    If I owned that car now, I would be most unhappy to see rumours like this being spread about it.

    As I understand it, the bloke that owned it took exception to ignorant people making disparaging remarks about him and the car when they had not seen the car themselves.

    For starters, the 'paddock' was a suburban backyard. I saw that car in that backyard myself. I do not recollect seeing any rust. In fact it appeared to be in quite good overall condition. Obviously, it's not an ideal situation for any car, let alone a rare car, but then I have also seen people use rare cars in a way that I would not.

    As it happens, I also saw that car at Cit In, Tassie in 2010. It looked perfectly fine to me. It didn't look like it had done any time rusting away. Perhaps the present owner might like to chime in and say what he had to do to address all that rust you speak of?
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boyracer View Post
    If I owned that car now, I would be most unhappy to see rumours like this being spread about it.

    As I understand it, the bloke that owned it took exception to ignorant people making disparaging remarks about him and the car when they had not seen the car themselves.

    For starters, the 'paddock' was a suburban backyard. I saw that car in that backyard myself. I do not recollect seeing any rust. In fact it appeared to be in quite good overall condition. Obviously, it's not an ideal situation for any car, let alone a rare car, but then I have also seen people use rare cars in a way that I would not.

    As it happens, I also saw that car at Cit In, Tassie in 2010. It looked perfectly fine to me. It didn't look like it had done any time rusting away. Perhaps the present owner might like to chime in and say what he had to do to address all that rust you speak of?
    I have cars sitting on grass like this, they near bloody disolve before your eyes It had grass growing the length of the engine bay in the pictures and everything looked corroded under the bonnet. The car sure is in good hands now It looked great when I saw it down in Tassie!

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    Quote Originally Posted by XantiaHead View Post
    There's a fellow in Adelaide currently building a flat 8 (two Alfa boxer engines) to put into an Alfasud.

    That should be something too...I suppose this will cue Alfasud jokes (sigh)...

    Cheers,

    Andrew Matusiewicz
    1999 Xantia SX 16 Valve 5 speed

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    Have to be one on top of the other to work in an Alphasud wouldn't it? BRM H16 anyone? Aargh!! Very brave but maybe do-able with a slight bonnet bulge. I'd have thought a supercharger would be much better than a second flat four in the car.

    I'm with Shane on the rotary CX, torque being everything at times. Wankels, with many fabulous attributes, don't have torque low down, at least as I understand them.

    I'd like my CX to be less agricultural but that's how they made them folks.
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    Here are a few photos of the GS Birotor, not good as it was not the main topic for the photographer except the engine bay.

    Greg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Citroën GS Birotor Wankel-gs-birotor1.jpg   Citroën GS Birotor Wankel-gs-birotor2.jpg   Citroën GS Birotor Wankel-gs-birotor3.jpg  
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