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Thread: DS hot dash

  1. #1
    Tadpole frithnow's Avatar
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    Default DS hot dash

    OK, I'm relatively new to DS ownership (I've had a '74 Safari for about six months) so I've got an "is this normal" question. With the weather warming up I'm noticing how toasty the cabin gets on longer trips, warm to hot air comes out of the vents and the metal lower part of the dash gets hot. Some previous owner has mounted a temp guage on it so I can tell how hot! - up to 50 degrees C. So is this normal, if it isn't how do I fix it? If it is how am I going to make it through summer??

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    Fellow Frogger! PSvensson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frithnow
    OK, I'm relatively new to DS ownership (I've had a '74 Safari for about six months) so I've got an "is this normal" question. With the weather warming up I'm noticing how toasty the cabin gets on longer trips, warm to hot air comes out of the vents and the metal lower part of the dash gets hot. Some previous owner has mounted a temp guage on it so I can tell how hot! - up to 50 degrees C. So is this normal, if it isn't how do I fix it? If it is how am I going to make it through summer??
    Does this beastie have a 23 in it?
    cause they do generate alot of heat for some reason it helps to have a craigy fan and you could rip the engine out, put some insulation around firewall and costum make a metal sheild on top. This should help with the heat and noise too.

    Dan
    Last edited by PSvensson; 25th November 2005 at 12:14 AM.

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    Tadpole frithnow's Avatar
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    It does have a 23, so you'd best tell me about craigy fans. I googled craigy fan and I an obscure football team and Lady Windemere's Fan but nothing that would fit under the bonnet!

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    It shouldn't blow hot air out the vents, check that the heater tap is turned off, its mounted up on the left side of the bulkhead.

    There is a control under the dash, sometimes the heater tap gets stuck or the cable doesn't close it fully.

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    I think these are the people you are looking for (Davies Craig): http://www.daviescraig.com.au/main/display.asp

    Peter
    when you say the tap gets stuck, you're talking about the actual internal valve itself? I'm having a fantastic time driving my new 23, but the air con is virtually permanently on, because the aforementioned vents blow hot air regardless of the control position. I've manually opened and shut the heater valve several times without change. The valve seems to be clicking shut, and I have re-adjusted the cable freeplay, so I know it's not the cable actuation at fault yet no improvement. I've had it suggested to remove it and give it a blast with compressed air, is this the accepted wisdom? By the way, enjoyed your DS21 article in the Aussie mag a couple of issues back. Any advice always appreciated,

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    Hey frithnow, nice to see another recent safari owner going through the 'is this normal' phase!!!

    (Warning, I'm about to namedrop...) I was speaking to Richard Davies, Managing Director of Davies Craig yesterday about cooling my Safari. Richard sent me one of his electric water pumps (EWP) to fit on Sophie a couple of months ago, and I'm yet to get around to it.

    Richard suggests wiring the pump directly from the battery in-line with the electric fan and in-series with the existing mechanical water pump.

    This would enable the water to circulate after the engine has been swithched off. He also assured me that the mechanical pump would not impede the operation of the EWP - for example in traffic when the mechaical pump was hardly working, but also where you need the most cooling.

    I have heard of some people fitting another electric fan to the front of the radiator to increase air flow. Richard is so confident of the EWP he's not suggesting this, and doubts that upgrading the radiator would be necessary.

    Anyway, my plan is to ge the EWP fitted and monitor the temperature performance (with the original equipment temperature gauge that I've just sourced!) and see what the impact is. Ideally this will be done before the festive season. Then I'll determine what else might need to happen to ensure 'cool running'. I'll post my thoughts when it's done.

    This is my first summer with the car, and this fiddling with the cooling system is designed to facilitate fitting air conditioning - eventually.
    Last edited by pajamas; 25th November 2005 at 05:04 PM.


    Paul in Canberra

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    Tadpole frithnow's Avatar
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    OK I'll check out the heater tap, moving the control lever doesn't result in any discernible temperature change so I guess there's a good chance that that's the problem. The EWPs look like a good idea for any old car. Richard Davies advice to you seems to contradict that on his website though. There they recommend removing the impeller from the stock water pump.

    What A/C are you looking at using? and where did you find you OE temp guage?

    Ta
    Rob

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    On Janet's '74 injected Auto the extra electric fan, instead of coming on and off with a "heat switch" is worked with a manual switch on the dash. When ignition is off it won't work. We leave this switch on all the time except rarely in winter when and IF it is cold (in Queensland). Also I always install an inline valve (tap) in the water hose going to the heater unit as the normal valve can let some water through when off.
    Regards, John.

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    Fellow Frogger! pajamas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frithnow
    ...The EWPs look like a good idea for any old car. Richard Davies advice to you seems to contradict that on his website though. There they recommend removing the impeller from the stock water pump.

    What A/C are you looking at using? and where did you find you OE temp guage?

    Ta
    Rob
    Hi Rob,

    Yeah, I had the same query about the impeller. Richard recons that the resistance of the radiator tube and radiator is more than that of the impeller. I plan to do a bit more digging about this before i fit the thing.

    I haven't considered an A/C unit in detail yet, but plan to fit a modern condensors compresor and evaporator. My current focus is getting the car a/c ready. Other than the cooling system (discussed in earlier post) I'm looking at upgrading the alternator for the 55Amp unit currently fitted.

    I've checked with Bosch and Denso directly to confirm that they don't have any unit listed for the DS (no surprise here). Another list member has suggested a Mitsubishi 110A unit (not sure what model) and apparently rewiring a BX Alt is also an option that some choose. A couple of the challenges in finding a new Alt is that:

    . the DS amp works in 'reverse' therefore an Alt with a fan blows instead of sucks. This Mitsubishi unit apparently doesn't have a fan and is cooled by the spinning of the unit itself.

    . the Alt works off the cam so therefore spins at half engine reve i.e quite slowly -especially at idle in traffic (I live in Canberra so this is rarely a problem!!

    . it seems that any new alt will require a new bracket and maybe some belt modifications (again, no surprise)

    Denton at European Autocare in Sydney has a couple of temp gauges that he's recalibrating. Not sure about $$ yet.

    I've been without Sophie for a couple of weeks as she has been in Sydney getting rust cut out of the wagon compartment, around the windows. Hopefully she'll be ready in the next week or so.

    Regards

    Paul
    Last edited by pajamas; 26th November 2005 at 04:46 PM.


    Paul in Canberra

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    Fellow Frogger! Mort Subite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pajamas
    Hey frithnow, nice to see another recent safari owner going through the 'is this normal' phase!!!
    ...Richard suggests wiring the pump directly from the battery in-line with the electric fan and in-series with the existing mechanical water pump.

    This would enable the water to circulate after the engine has been swithched off. ..... Anyway, my plan is to ge the EWP fitted and monitor the temperature performance (with the original equipment temperature gauge that I've just sourced!) and see what the impact is. Ideally this will be done before the festive season. Then I'll determine what else might need to happen to ensure 'cool running'. I'll post my thoughts when it's done.

    This is my first summer with the car, and this fiddling with the cooling system is designed to facilitate fitting air conditioning - eventually.
    Good luck and if it all works please share your trials with us. (trust me to want a black car)
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    It is most likely that the O ring inside the valve is gone. Therefore you could sit there and flick that lever all day and it would make ZIP difference.

    As John suggest, put another tap in the line just before the heater matrix and this should prevent the flow through the matrix.
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    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pajamas
    I'm looking at upgrading the alternator for the 55Amp unit currently fitted.

    I've checked with Bosch and Denso directly to confirm that they don't have any unit listed for the DS (no surprise here). Another list member has suggested a Mitsubishi 110A unit

    . the Alt works off the cam so therefore spins at half engine reve i.e quite slowly -especially at idle in traffic (I live in Canberra so this is rarely a problem!!
    The fact that the alternator is driven by a pulley on the camshaft is a critical point here, but not because it spins at half revs. It doesn't actually, because the drive pulley is nearly double the diameter of your average crankshaft pulley. The real reason is that you can easily overload the cam chain, the drive pulley, and maybe even the camshaft. Think about how you are driving all these accessories. There's this little chain up the back of the engine, then the drive goes the whole length of the camshaft, then through a pressed steel pulley that isn't really up to it when it is only driving standard accessories. Now you want to add a bigger alternator and an airconditioner compressor. I don't want to say that you cannot do it, or even that you should not, but at least spare a thought for how you are going to drive all these add-ons.

    Roger

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    Hey Roger, Thanks for the advice which I'll keep in front of mind.


    Paul in Canberra

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    Tadpole frithnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Wilkinson
    Now you want to add a bigger alternator and an airconditioner compressor. I don't want to say that you cannot do it, or even that you should not, but at least spare a thought for how you are going to drive all these add-ons.

    Roger
    I haven't looked under the bonnet ahead of writing this so pardon me if I get the wrong end of the proverbial stick ... The DSs that came out with factory air must have had a compressor running off something?? I don't know the first thing about A/C compressors (I must love displaying my ignorance) would a modern compressor present a lesser drive load than a 70's one?
    With regard to the uprated alternator, I guess if you're looking for extra juice to drive an EWP and electric radiator fan you could knock some load out of the system by removing the standard equipment fan and water pump impeller. You won't win any prizes on show day though! and (engineer I am not) perhaps you wouldn't knock out enough load to compensate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frithnow
    I haven't looked under the bonnet ahead of writing this so pardon me if I get the wrong end of the proverbial stick ... The DSs that came out with factory air must have had a compressor running off something?? I don't know the first thing about A/C compressors (I must love displaying my ignorance) would a modern compressor present a lesser drive load than a 70's one?
    With regard to the uprated alternator, I guess if you're looking for extra juice to drive an EWP and electric radiator fan you could knock some load out of the system by removing the standard equipment fan and water pump impeller. You won't win any prizes on show day though! and (engineer I am not) perhaps you wouldn't knock out enough load to compensate.
    I think everything you say is true. Modern multi-cylinder aircon compressors are a bit like the DS multi-cylinder hydraulic pump. The load is distributed by there being several small cylinders arranged radially. Older compressors had fewer, larger cylinders and induced greater momentary shock loadings. So yes, new compressors are "better" than old ones in that they are easier to drive. I doubt they last as long as the old ones though, so they may not be better in all respects.

    The standard fan must take a fair bit of power. It must also waste a fair bit of the power it takes, because it makes a lot of noise and it takes power to make noise. But more importantly, that noise represents power loss, inefficiency if you like.

    I wouldn't mind having an airconditioned DS myself. A few years ago I had a 1963 ID19 and a 1974 D Super on the road at the same time, and I always preferred the older one in summer, because the newer one was a lot hotter inside the cabin. So I am not saying don't put air-con in one.

    What I am saying is make sure the drive is up to it. I would install a new timing chain (if I did not know for sure that the existing chain was good) and check the camshaft pulley to make sure it was not starting to crack. Maybe even make sure the camshaft and its bearings were good. That way, you will increase the time before any of these things might fail. By increasing the load on the drive, you are decreasing the safety factor. The lower the safety factor, the shorter the time before you would expect things to start failing.

    The people who really push safety factors to the limit are the aircraft industry. High safety factors require extra weight and that is the last thing aircraft need. So they get lightness by using low safety factors but make up for it by imposing rigid and frequent inspection and parts replacement schedules. They are really anal about maintenance regimes (and when I fly I am very glad of it!). It is still cheaper to do that than to lug around extra weight.

    You could do the same. You have to decrease your safety factor, so adopt a thorough inspection and maintenance schedule.

    Roger

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    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pajamas
    . the DS amp works in 'reverse' therefore an Alt with a fan blows instead of sucks. This Mitsubishi unit apparently doesn't have a fan and is cooled by the spinning of the unit itself.

    Regards

    Paul
    The DS engine works in 'reverse' to the extent that it drives the gearbox in the opposite rotational direction from the norm. But it still rotates clockwise looking from the front. The alternator is driven from the front (which from the engine's point of view is the 'back') so it does indeed rotate in the conventional direction.

    Roger

    PS nice yellow safari, Pajamas. what colour is it? A while back (in NZ) I had a D Super that had been painted in the Rover SD1 yellow. I called it 'custard'.

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    Roger, I'm afraid that my avatar is a bit of a cheat as it is not my car, just one that was already on file.

    Someday, I'll work out how to load a picture of mine!

    Thanks for your comments, above, very useful for a novice.

    The bit about the reverse operation of the engine is some sort of urban myth which I've seen in a couple of places, and was repeated to me most recently by a well respected citroen mechanic in Sydney.

    I'm probably missing something, but he definitely said that the standard alternator fan will work in reverse, and this not suck/blow in cool air.

    Hmmm very confusing. My quest for a suitable alternator continues....


    Paul in Canberra

    1974 DS Safari (aka Sophie Safari)
    1972 SM (aka Simone, aka S'Moan)
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    Fellow Frogger! pajamas's Avatar
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    Hi frithnow,

    Did you ever solve the problem of not being able to turn off heated air from entering the cabin?


    Paul in Canberra

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    1972 SM (aka Simone, aka S'Moan)
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    This sounds like a thread I can have some useful input for.

    I've recently (in the past week) fitted Moby Dick with not only an electric cooling fan, but a Bosch 85 amp alternator.

    I can vouch for the fact that removing that bloody great big engine driven fan has halved the noise from under the bonnet!

    The fan first. I chose a 12 inch unit, originally I was looking at the Davies-Craig DCS12 but one wasn't available on the day (The 20% off sales day!) so I opted for the chinese made ICE brand 12 incher.

    I've fitted it inside the shroud. This may prove to be a mistake in that I suspect I would be better off with it hard against the radiator core. Temperature control is by a Davies-craig controller of the type with a bulb inserted into the top hose. So far all seems to work OK, but the car does seem to run fairly consistently up in the 180 degrees (F) range. She peaked out at 210 in the 40C weather we've been having, and the fan was running almost continuously under those conditions.

    I've just been for a drive in relatively normal weather and it all seems to be cycling reasonably. Temp is stable at around the 180 mark with the settings I'm using at the moment. Further research will result in more information being passed on, and possibly changes to the fan positioning.

    I've also modified the dash in that I'm using the '4 way flasher' lamp at the bottom of the warning light cluster as a fan indication. I changed the bezel to orange and added a small white cross to the front bit. (It sorta looks like a fan!) A manual override switch will be fitted when I decide where I want it to be.

    The alternator I've fitted is a Bosch 85 amp universal model. I chose this as it is easily replaceable anywhere, robust, and I already had it on the shelf!

    Looking at the mounting made it clear that I had to retain the original u-shaped mounting bracket as this in fact forms a bridge over the lower radiator hose.

    I agonised over how to attach the Bosch to this mounting for a while until I realised that there are two types of alternators originally fitted, Ducellier or Paris-Rhone.

    The Paris-Rhone unit is very similar in mounting to the Bosch and I was able to adapt the whole thing relatively easily fit. The only thing I had to make was a couple of longer M4 bolts holding the alternator to the bracket. (And I had to get my head around mounting the alternator sort of upside down in that I'm using the tensioning flange as a mounting in addition to the bracket at the rear, and the wide mounting flange for tensioning, with the tensioning bracket cranked slightly to fit.)

    The Ducellier mounting is slightly different and potentially harder to modify, so I've kept this one complete as a usable spare if ever the Bosch falls in a heap.

    I'll post some photos in a while, but I plan to write this mod up for the Citroen Car Club of Victoria magazine first.

    Frithnow, as far as hot air through the vents is concerned, does your car have the ducts inside the mudguards taking the vents down to the nose of the car? if these are missing you are sourcing the air through the vents from inside the engine bay, and that's always going to be hot! Fitting/replacing the ducting helps a lot when driving along, but the air will still be warm when stationary.

    Hope all this helps. Pottsy.
    Last edited by pottsy; 2nd January 2006 at 05:56 PM.
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  20. #20
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    I've just been through the "what alternator to fit to my CX" saga too... (saga's bloody right because the alternator belt was slightly short allowing the alternator fan to touch the lower radiator hose. After replacing the radiator hose and fitting a slightly longer alternator belt .... It all works perfectly until I'm pulling the 17' caravan down an onramp on full boost ... this manages to twist the engine in it's mountings enough to rub a hole in the lowerhose again .. ... I can't even blame the car 'cos it's this idiot sitting here typings fault... I'm about to chase up a much longer belt so it doesn't happen again).

    Anyway back to the point, if you buy a 120amp universal bosch alternator it comes without a pulley. Just fit your existing DS's pulley and fan. The direction it spins shouldn't matter as it's a 3phase device. Being an internally regulated and rectified unit you can also get rid of the regulator and other wiring. (if your going to be running electric water pumps, air conditioners and fans, I think a bigger 120amp altnerator would be better).

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    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Shane

    I quite agree about using the Bosch 120 as a replacement in the CX, as they came with a high output one as standard. I've gone the 85 amp mainly for the aforementioned reasons but also as it's a reasonable upgrade to the original 50 amp unit without going over the top.

    Once the super oscars are fitted up for the re-run in April, it should pay off quite handsomely!

    I also simply used the original pulley on the Bosch as I didn't want to change the belt system. (And the original belts still fit comfortably) I'll put new ones on when I replace all the rest of them, and the hoses as well, in a month or so.

    Cheers, Pottsy.
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