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    OK , this might be basic and been done before but-I've just bought a car I really want to preserve; not that I haven't wanted to look after my previous cars but this is my first European ( Pluriel), and I want to prolong it's life .

    What do people recommend for protecting the external surfaces of their Citroens. How often to apply a polish etc.

    The pluriel has a treated retractable roof. I wonder if anyone knows if the roof needs additional long term protection from sun damage and what to use. My car will be parked in sunlight for 5 working days a week.

    What if anything are people using that works for interiors of cars, leather seats, dashboards etc.

    Any other hints to maximise the life of our cars.

    Any input will be greatfully received

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    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    Nothing

    Nah, i use these guys - www.carcare.net.au

    I'm too lazy to do it myself.

    The owner of the franchise is a great guy, hes a frogger as well, don't know if he knows about aussiefrogs. If you mention you own a French vehicle, he will tell you everything about his old Renaults, Peugeots and regular trips to France. He's also a big fan of Citroens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uga Boga
    Nothing

    Nah, i use these guys - www.carcare.net.au

    I'm too lazy to do it myself.

    The owner of the franchise is a great guy, hes a frogger as well, don't know if he knows about aussiefrogs. If you mention you own a French vehicle, he will tell you everything about his old Renaults, Peugeots and regular trips to France. He's also a big fan of Citroens.

    Interesting, but I'm after what products and routines owners can use themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oby.
    Interesting, but I'm after what products and routines owners can use themselves.
    Buy Meguiars and only Meguiars, if you're going to do it yourself.
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    I have been doing detailing for some time and can offer plenty of advice. I've been a concourse winner (Ross* didn't show and several times running up (Ross did show

    The best thing a normal owner can do is to invest $3 in a car shampoo and just wash it every other week. That way, when it's time to sell, a detailer can bring it up to scratch with minimal effort.

    Not washing it is dangerous to the surface as it dulls the paint and embeds dirt, sap, bird crap, insect carcasses, tar, and other debris deep into the clear coat.

    NEVER EVER use dishwashing liquid on your car unless you're about to re-wax it. Dishwashing liquid is very astringent and excellent at getting rid of car waxes.

    If you want to win prizes, you will need to follow this advice when you do what I call "the big clean":

    Interior. You will need a small detailing brush to get the dust out of all the nooks and crannies. About $3 at Autobarn. Remove all the rubbish and stuff from the car. Start at the top, and work down with the detailing brush in all the nooks and crannies. Vacuum the car, starting at the top and to the bottom. I use a slightly damp microfibre cloth on all plastic surfaces to remove fingerprints, dust and marks. I do not use interior cleaning products as I keep the car as clean as I can.

    Initial paint care. Just wash it every other week for about three months, until the water stops beading. Paint needs time to properly harden, and if you apply polishes or waxes to the surface, it will harm the paint a little.

    Washing. Use normal tap water at room temperature unless you want to remove the previous wax applications, in which case, use ~40 C warm water. Do not use high pressure hoses - if there's any grit in the water, you will dull your paint, and new paint will succumb to the high pressure nozzles. I change the bucket every quarter, and I consider there to be six quarters - roof and windows, FR, FL, BR, BL, and bottom/wheels. Always start at the top and work down. When you have finished a panel, chamois off with a synthetic chamois, and do it again at the end. Otherwise, if you have hard water, the droplets will harden and calcify. If they really harden, only dedicated buffing by a professional will budge them. You can tell how hard your water is by looking inside your kettle. Materials required: two microfibre wash cloths (3M are best) $3 at supermarket, synthetic chamois, about $7.50 at Autobarn (more for a bigger piece), and Meguairs car shampoo, about $3. I do not use real chamois - they suck AND cost way more.

    Tar and bug remover. This is like nuclear weapons to bug carcasses. If you have a bug problem, try warm water + car shampoo first. Only use this stuff for the worst bugs. Tar & Bug remover is a solvent, and overuse will dull the clear coat. This can be dealt with by a professional but truly excessive use will lose the clear coat entirely.

    Polishes. Only use these after the water stops beading AND if you need to use it - you have excessive wax build up, swirling or minor paint blemishes. "Polishes" are fine abrasives set in a solvent and do NOT themselves give the final shiny surface - yes after use, the surface is shiny, but it's also naked - water will not bead off the paint and debris and crap will damage the paint easier. I use polishes about twice a year as part of an all day clean, usually just before a concourse event. I use Meguairs Deep Crystal.

    Clay bars. After washing and chamoising off, feel your newly washed paint with your hand. If it is smooth, you don't need to clay yet. I'd stay away from using a clay until ~ 12 months. Clay bars are essential at removing extremely fine surface debris and preventing the debris from being trapped under the wax. Cost about $35 a bar with a lubricant. I cut my clay into quarters and seal the rest in plastic zip lock baggies. That way, you get four major cleans out of a single bar. Turn and re-work the clay every time you change panels, again starting from the top. Throw away when you have finished the car.

    Waxes. I use these whenever the water stops beading, usually about two - three months. After two - three applications, I will warm wash the paint (as per above), polish and clay the paint to completely remove the previous wax layers. I currently like the Meguairs NXT range, but before that I used the Selley's Diamond Finish over the top of Meguairs Gold Class which just an awesome deep finish. I have tried all the major waxes, and I think most of them do a good job - even the cheap brands like Kitten. The worst disappointment so far was the $130 jar of crap I bought

    Danger! Danger! First hand experience of C3 plastics - do NOT get any wax or any of the products mentioned here on your plastic surfaces, and the Pluriel has many. If you do, get it off immediately and you may need to re-wash the area. It is extremely hard to remove these white stains, and it's very ugly.

    Dressings. Car detailers use dressings to make the car shiny. Tire dressings last about a week and they look great. I do not use plastic "back to black" dressings unless I absolutely need to - the dressings change the rubber and plastic surfaces, so I try to hold out as long as possible.

    About swirls. Swirling is caused by dirt in your wash water and not cleaning your microfibre cloth between panels, or mixing dirt levels (say by making the mistake of washing the bottom of the car and then moving to the top without rinsing the water out). They are actually micro-scratches. You cannot really prevent swirling, but you can minimize it. Wash in one direction only. I always wash from the front of the car in the direction of air flow, never in circles nor up and down. Once you have chosen a direction, never change it. You can see swirls when there's a lot of scratches. When the scratches all line up, it's much harder to see them. Other things that help: Rinse regularly. Change the water every time you think it needs changing or every panel (see above for the six zones) which ever comes first. However, at some stage, particularly if you have a dark color car, like black or dark blue, then you'll see the swirling. You can get rid of it in two ways. Professionally is the best shot, about $150, but you can do it yourself with a higher level polish than the normal retail stuff you would buy for polishing paint. This stuff normally requires the use of a buffer, but if you work in small areas, you can do it by hand. For the time consumed, I'd just get it done professionally.


    The difference between an average clean and a detail ... is detail. Spend the time to do it properly. I take about an hour to wash the car, three hours to wax it, and before the concourse, I take all day.

    As I like to win, I will not give away all my secrets, but I will tell you it takes a *lot* of effort. Learn your car clubs' scrutnieering rules for concourse events, particularly what you will be judged on (ie just the surface, engine bay, under body...) and how they will judge it. CCCV for example, awards points for having the club sticker on the car. I hate stickers as they detract from the overall appearance of a car, but now I know that they want it, I've put one on.

    I do not trailer my car to events as I feel this is cheating. Cars are meant to be driven. And in that vein, don't get too hung up on all this advice - just wash the car every few weeks, and enjoy the drive!

    thanks,
    Andrew

    * Ross Woolley wins any event he enters. He is an awesome competitor and really nice guy. He showed me the pleasure of using a modern product (Diamond Finish) for a range of tasks and the results are just stunning. He takes about seven days to prepare his car for a major event, and they're always clean. You take your shoes off to ride in his cars. This level of detail is how you win shows, and it takes a lot more effort than I'm prepared to (or can) put in. He drives to the shows as well.
    Last edited by vanderaj; 24th September 2005 at 02:33 AM.
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    Here's a completely clean panel:

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    Parking outside for five days a week is only tricky if you park under trees. There are two problems with parking near trees: sap and bird poop. If you have no choice, wash weekly and keep a bottle of quick detailer and some detailing throw away paper (it's like a soft roll of tough and wide tissue paper) for the bird dung and obvious sap drops. You must get rid of as soon as you are aware of them as both of these babies damage the clear coat to the point only a respray will fix.

    I do not like car covers as they are often misused, and if applied to wet, dirty paint, cause far more damage than leaving the car uncovered.

    I do not like car bras as they are really fugly, and extended use causes clear coats to go "chalky" and discolor. Never use a car bra in the wet - this instruction is also in all reputable car bra instructions. If the car bra is fastened using pressure from the bonnet, expect the paint to simply rub off on the sides, requiring a repaint in the future. It's far cheaper to get the stone chips fixed by a professional than to waste money on a car bra.

    Interior cleaning - just say no to product ... until you absolutely need it. In particular, ArmorAll is so shiny that it should be declared illegal as it really causes the dash to reflect in sunny weather. I use just water on a microfibre cloth and regular vacuums. I do have carpet cleaner (had a dog pooh incident, haven't used it since), Meguairs Leather cleaner (careful if your seats have perforations as this stuff needs to be applied carefully and minimally to avoid it building up and creating white dots in the perforated holes), and plastic / vinyl cleaners, which I use when the car comes back from servicing with oily foot prints on doors, etc.

    Andrew
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    Quote Originally Posted by vanderaj
    Parking outside for five days a week is only tricky if you park under trees. There are two problems with parking near trees: sap and bird poop. If you have no choice, wash weekly and keep a bottle of quick detailer and some detailing throw away paper (it's like a soft roll of tough and wide tissue paper) for the bird dung and obvious sap drops. You must get rid of as soon as you are aware of them as both of these babies damage the clear coat to the point only a respray will fix.

    I do not like car covers as they are often misused, and if applied to wet, dirty paint, cause far more damage than leaving the car uncovered.

    I do not like car bras as they are really fugly, and extended use causes clear coats to go "chalky" and discolor. Never use a car bra in the wet - this instruction is also in all reputable car bra instructions. If the car bra is fastened using pressure from the bonnet, expect the paint to simply rub off on the sides, requiring a repaint in the future. It's far cheaper to get the stone chips fixed by a professional than to waste money on a car bra.

    Interior cleaning - just say no to product ... until you absolutely need it. In particular, ArmorAll is so shiny that it should be declared illegal as it really causes the dash to reflect in sunny weather. I use just water on a microfibre cloth and regular vacuums. I do have carpet cleaner (had a dog pooh incident, haven't used it since), Meguairs Leather cleaner (careful if your seats have perforations as this stuff needs to be applied carefully and minimally to avoid it building up and creating white dots in the perforated holes), and plastic / vinyl cleaners, which I use when the car comes back from servicing with oily foot prints on doors, etc.

    Andrew
    Thanks everyone for their remarks.

    Andrew,

    thankyou in particular for your magnificent reply.I will definately save this one for future reference. Could you clarify when to use waxes instead of polishes( or visa versa). You mention the use of both when the water stops beading.My dealer said to try and keep away from waxes as the excess builds up in seams etc on the body. I use Macquires(?) shampoo plus wet finish polish at present.

    Any advise for sun protection re. the pluriel sunroof material?Or is the factory finish long term sunlight stable?

    thanks again

    James

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    I concur with much of the above - synthetic chamois and water is my preferred wash.

    I'm an Autoglym man - I can highly recommend their wax Extra Gloss Protection and their Leather Cream (which is less shiny and smells nice IMHO). Bumper Care for black bits (avoid as long as poss).

    Tyres? definitely Meguirs Endurance Tyre Gel.

    BTW - does anyone else think that using Armorall actually damages the plastic bits, bleaching/fading the colour? Once I've started using it it seems to be the beginning of the end...
    Last edited by Trixie; 24th September 2005 at 11:23 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vanderaj
    Interior cleaning - just say no to product ... until you absolutely need it. In particular, ArmorAll is so shiny that it should be declared illegal as it really causes the dash to reflect in sunny weather. I use just water on a microfibre cloth and regular vacuums.
    Thanks for all the great advice Andrew.

    Just on the Interior ArmorAll products, they do make a couple different ones. I use the ArmorAll New Car Protectant on my interior, the reason I decided to try it was because they stated it was low shine. I'd have no trouble recommending this stuff to anyone, it has made no different to the shine of the dash (or any other surface I've used it on) and it smells great. I think I picked up 500ml for about $12-14 at Big W.

    On another note, the 3M microfibre cloths are great (and cheap).
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    Quote Originally Posted by vanderaj
    I have been doing detailing for some time and can offer plenty of advice.

    ...<snip>...
    This is great stuff, makes me feel guilty about eating my lunch while going through the car wash, then tossing the wrapper in the bin (aka. passenger footwell). The 'bin' gets emptied ocne a month whether it needs it or not.

    I'm looking to improve my ways. My BX has excellent paint, still shiny after 20 years except where some sort of physical damage has occured. I have a couple of spots where the clear coat has peeled off. What is the best way to repair this? The paint underneath is still OK.

    Regards, Trevor

    P.S. I'm fastidious in the mechanical sense but a slob in every other way.

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    everyone's got their favourite products... I love Klasse ALLinOne best simply because it lasts a really long time. For shininess I think Natty's wax is awesome if appied over syntethic products such as Klass AIO but it doesnt last all that long... In the budget range I thing Turtle Wax Ultra Gloss in the Patinum range is very good. I just finished detailing my friend's 1988 Corolla 10 minutes ago and it made a huge improvement. I didnt the bonnet with Klasse just as a bit of an experiment to see how much longer it will last. He lives right on the beach so I dont expect the Klasse to last more then 2 months at the most... The turtle wax should last him 2 weeks.

    My 306 is due for a major detail in about 6 weeks so I'll take some good pictures this time (before and after).
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlampre
    This is great stuff, makes me feel guilty about eating my lunch while going through the car wash, then tossing the wrapper in the bin (aka. passenger footwell). The 'bin' gets emptied ocne a month whether it needs it or not.


    It hurts to read that! I won't allow any food to be eaten in my car, I won't even allow fast food to enter the vehicle (just transporting the stuff for 10 minutes can stink out a car for days!).
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    Quote Originally Posted by OG15


    It hurts to read that! I won't allow any food to be eaten in my car, I won't even allow fast food to enter the vehicle (just transporting the stuff for 10 minutes can stink out a car for days!).
    Ouch!

    I've got kids (who have 3 dogs). One learns to become philosophical about melted icecream/chocolate/umentionables/etc in the car once ankle biters arrive on the scene. And, as my kids live in Adelaide, I don't to see them anywhere near as much as I'd like. So getting cranky if they make a mess isn't exacly 'quality time'.

    I like my cars to run nice because they're more fun to drive that way so I keep them in good repair. I get a real kick out of a clean piece of precision engineering. But my main focus is to enjoy myself. Having a nervous breakdown over a bit of dirt tends to get in the way of that.

    The BX is really growing on me and it's not in such a state that it should be let go. A little TLC and it will come up really nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oby.
    Thanks everyone for their remarks.

    Andrew,

    thankyou in particular for your magnificent reply.I will definately save this one for future reference. Could you clarify when to use waxes instead of polishes( or visa versa). You mention the use of both when the water stops beading.My dealer said to try and keep away from waxes as the excess builds up in seams etc on the body. I use Macquires(?) shampoo plus wet finish polish at present.

    Any advise for sun protection re. the pluriel sunroof material?Or is the factory finish long term sunlight stable?

    thanks again

    James
    Polishes are when you want to remove the previous wax jobs or have significant paint debris. I do not recommend them for you in the first twelve months of your car's life. Waxes provide a very shiny smooth surface (the look) and a *little* protection. People worry about putting waxes on for protection but the reality is after you've removed the hazed wax, you're left with a very thin layer of wax. It will not stop stone chips, but it will deal with minor things, like rain, road dust and minor pollen dumps.

    In a year, I will wash the car 26 times, wax it maybe 4 times and polish and clay it (before waxing) at most twice. This last 12 months, I've yet to polish it - I'll do that just before the CCCV concourse coming up. Modern polishes are far superior products than the old cutting compounds (which are still available, but don't buy them!*), but they're still abrasives and need to be treated with a bit of respect - don't overuse them.

    Waxes are tricky - first timers always apply too much. You just need a tiny dob on the applicator and give each surface the finest and thinnest of coats. That way you don't waste product, don't get a lot of excess in the edges, and you don't have to use a lot of muscle to get it off when it hazes.

    Wax build up in the edges is a matter of detail (which is where the time comes in). I use the edge of detailing cloth and ear buds to clean those off. You just need to pay attention.

    Modern plastics are pretty good - I'd advise staying away from any products until you absolutely need to. Back to Black and so on are "dressings" and they seem to affect the material. Do not use them until you absolutely need to (about three or so years in).

    My C3's plastic roof rails have a bit of discoloration from excess wax (my bad!). I'm thinking of simply buying replacement plastic roof rails for the concourse rather than trying to fix it up with a dressing. Now that I know how easy they are to remove, I now wax without them on the car. Makes doing the roof a lot easier and also avoids wax build up in the seams.

    Andrew

    * If you have a non-clear coat, solid paint (before ~ 1980), color sanding and cutting compounds with a buffer are a great way to restore the finish of your paint job if it has gone dull. If you don't have this, don't buy cutting compounds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlampre
    I'm looking to improve my ways. My BX has excellent paint, still shiny after 20 years except where some sort of physical damage has occured. I have a couple of spots where the clear coat has peeled off. What is the best way to repair this? The paint underneath is still OK.
    I'm afraid the clear coat needs to be reapplied in the area. This is a job for professionals as modern two pac paints are toxic and I cannot say that it's a back yard possibility any more.

    The panel beater would sand down the area + a bit more to make a good surface, convert the rust if any minor bits, prime it, sand it to make it smooth, clean and tack it, spray a thin coat of color, and then apply a thicker coat of clear. That will produce a really shiny new section. They will then buff the rest of the car with a professional cutting compound to make the new section less noticeable.

    Small sections (about 20x20 cm) will cost about $400 to repair. Do the rounds of the local places and you should be able to get a competitive quote.

    Andrew
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    On products, everyone has their own preference. Although I end up coming back to Meguairs a lot (out here in the boondocks of the Western suburbs, it's hard to get much else), I've tried most of them.

    Things I look for:

    a) great shine and deep finish
    b) ease of use - many products are unnecessarily hard to use
    c) price

    There is absolutely no correlation between price and performance. The Diamond Finish and top end Kitten products, cos they're locals are far cheaper than their imported friends, and they do spectacular jobs. Diamond Finish in particular is really easy to work with. It's like Mr Sheen.

    I've used and don't mind using:

    Mothers
    Meguairs - I have more of this than anything else
    Klasse
    Autoglym
    Polyglaze Diamond Finish - excellent for the price
    top end Kitten product

    There's some I consider to be very average and over the top expensive. Anything over $40 is preying on your view of "premium" or "European" and as my $130 tub of crap proved, not any better than the $7.95 Kitten. I wont name names as it's obvious which ones I'm talking about when you go shopping.

    There's a lot of hype about using premium ingredients like yellow Canuba wax, which are usually paste based. Yes, these waxes provide a fantastic deep gloss, and most of them smell like bananas, but you can get a superior finish out of Polyglaze for 1/4 the price and 1/10th the effort. Paste based waxes are very hard to work with compared to liquid finishes. My favorite liquid finish right now is Meguairs NXT. Just awesome. When I used to use Meguairs Gold paste (carnuba based), I'd apply Diamond Finish over the top to get the same sort of results NXT provides with a single application.

    However, there are few bad waxes / finishes out there. Go buy a couple and see what takes your fancy.

    Andrew
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    In the US, there is a cargo cult surrounding Zaino Bros with many dedicated fan boys. It's not easily available here.

    http://www.zainostore.com/

    This is about the last major brand which I have yet to try. One day...

    Andrew
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    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    Andrew,

    I could use some of your knowledgeable opinion on this issue...

    With the C4, due to it's aerodynamic shape, it seems to collect ALOT of dust on the bonnet and the rear.

    I'm talking about the same day after having it professionally washed, detailed and polished.. after a 30 minute drive, it's full of dust again. Being black it seems to show easily.

    Now, do you recommend i use some detailing spray on the dust areas, then wipe it dry? Or would that affect the paint? It's driving me crazy!

    Thanks again.

    Heres my C4 after a carcare wash:

    Last edited by Uga Boga; 24th September 2005 at 05:46 PM.
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    Dust and road grime are unfortunately a fact of life for darker colored cars like yours and mine (mine's a very dark blue). They look spectacular for the first day and dusty and grimy for the next 13. I tend to let it be.

    Waxing provides the best protection, and for light grime, a quick hose down* followed by a chamoising usually gets rid of all the light dust and grime once you're waxed properly. Takes about 2 or 3 minutes to do.

    I use Quick Detailer with disposable detailing cloth on smaller blemishes, but I wouldn't consider it for the entire car except as a last minute thing at car shows. When I'm at car shows, I take 2 x 4l of bottled water and a small bucket, microfibre cloth to get the worst off, and use Quick Detailer and disposable detailing cloth to bring it back up to a high gloss. Many places used for car show grounds do not have taps unless you're lucky. Takes about 20 minutes.

    There are "dry" car washes available. I've read over the Choice Magazine article on them:

    http://www.choice.com.au/viewarticle...tid=100008&p=1

    However, I have not tried them, and I wouldn't use any of them on my paint - the chances of swirling and micro-scratches are just too great, plus the price is equivalent to nipping down to the Laser car wash for a quick hose down.

    Andrew

    * If you get hassled by nosey neighbors on the hose down, just inform them it takes no more than a minute of using the hose, and that doesn't fill a single bucket. This is easy to prove. If the aim of the anti-hose laws in tight water conditions is to use less water, then using a hose with a trigger nozzle is the best way to go. Rinsing even small cars takes about 4-5 buckets of water.
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    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    wow!!!

    Thanks for the great write up!!

    I really do appreciate, it's great to have someone of your experience (car shows etc..), assisting us in the forum!

    Knowing my neighbours, they keep a 24/7 vigil on everyone's hoses...

    I think i'll just go to carlovers and give it a rinse there every 3-4 days, otherwise, it'll be covered in dust. I might experience with some of the dry car washes.


    Thanks again, hehe, i was contemplating using quick detailer for the whole car
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  22. #22
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    Default Thanks Andrew most informative

    Thank you Andrew for your good advice, I have washed, polished and shone many cars, but never really understood why people get their cars detailed, now I do thanks for giving us an insight into the competitive world of car detailing.

    Was nice to meet you and your good lady at the Parma night.

    Ken

  23. #23
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Gee's and I thought parking my car in the rain was plenty enough to clean it ... Gets a bit dirty if it doesn't rain for a couple of months

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Gee's and I thought parking my car in the rain was plenty enough to clean it ... Gets a bit dirty if it doesn't rain for a couple of months

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    I used to do that, however, it doesn't get rid of any dirt embedded into the paint. If you don't dry it quick enough, you'll have nice water marks.
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  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! vanderaj's Avatar
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    Hi there,

    Today, I took my own advice and started my road to the CCCV concourse event with my two year old, 43,000 km C3.

    I usually take a few weekends in a row to get it into top shape, working on the little fiddly bits every weekend, and then one last detail just the day before.

    Today's effort included:

    Interior clean and vacuum
    Wash and chamois
    Claying
    Polishing (with a random orbital buffer and anti-swirling* compound)
    Meguairs NXT
    Some detailing

    Here's the results:







    Me in my newly unswirled bonnet, with orange peel care of Citroen:




    Wax build ups - next weekend, I will try to remove these fully:




    The wax got on there because it was nearly dark when I applied a last coat of wax. It's practically impossible to get wax residue like this off plastics. However, it is easy to get rid of ridges like the one you see between the door - it just takes patience as it requires ear buds.

    Now, I you might notice a cable in one of the shots - I have a random orbital buffer. This just makes the polishing and wax application much easier under normal circumstances, and it's about the only way to get rid of swirling. But using a buffer takes nerves of steel the first time you do it as you can REALLY stuff up your paint job if you screw up. My bonnet now is swirl free but the two chips I have are ugly. I will probably deal with them just before I sell the car. They are the honor of driving the car - I've done 43000 km in two years in my baby and it looks better than new (cos I know how to prepare paint, unlike the rush PDI most dealers do - my car still had shipping tape under the doors when I got my car.

    Andrew

    * Anti-swirling compound is not for beginners. Work up to it.
    Last edited by vanderaj; 25th September 2005 at 07:05 PM.
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