DS Engine Transplant
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! markm's Avatar
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    DS Engine Transplant

    I love my ID19 ('68) but.... I hate the engine its loud, vibrates and is gutless. I've had 2 DS's and 2 ID's and the longstroke one was the best. So what are the possiblities? I don't need lots of power, I do need something in keeping with the rest of the car, so it needs to be smooth, quiet, efficient and low emmision.

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    Mark McKibbin

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Hi Mark,

    You don't have many options here - the big problem is that D engines rotate the 'wrong' way, so you can't easily put anything elese in unless you are prepared to do very serious transaxle work.

    My suggestion would be to go for a DS21 engine, with some warming over, if you want more power.

    The roughness is not inherent in the engine - it is mainly due to the mounting, so close to the passenger compartment, and with not real good engine mounts, even when new - although it is bugger of a job they really need to be replaced every few years.

    Adding insulation to the firewall on the engine side can make a world of difference here - as well as making it a lot cooler inside.

    There is lurking somewhere in SA a supercharged DS21 - that would seem to be the way to go for ultimate power.

    The EFI systems add lots of complexity for not really much more oomph, especially if you wanted to do it as an add on.

    Paul
    Paul Smith

    1974 DS23 EFI BW Auto
    1974 G Special 1220


    http://www.simplicitas.com.au

  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    well I've heard reports of a P76 V8 lump being dropped in behind the bulkhead. It must already turn backwards I guess. Paul I think you'll find the injected motors considerably more powerful... ie: 139hp instead of the carby 115. Biggest differnce of course is in the driving, a nice flat gutsy torque figure right through the rev range.

    The 23 injecteds aparantly though the quickest by far, with much more torque, not much more power (141hp), are considered to vibrate much more, and not be as nice a motor in use. Not my opinion though, as I haven't the cars to do a proper comparison.

    Of course with an auto slushbox bolted to it. Everything should be nice & smooth? How are those fluid filled mounts holding up?? Yours would have to be one of the smoothest 'D's in Australia. Auto, injected, fluid filled mounts, etc, etc..

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! markm's Avatar
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    Smooth & Quiet is the priority not power any new engine will brow away the old donk! In beetles the transaxle is changed easily as all formula Vees have it done so a Cit may not be a big deal.
    Mark McKibbin

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Hi Shane,

    My car is still not back on the road!

    Back together this week, but I have to go and put the inside parts of the A/C back as well - the fan switch had died, so I took the chance to replace the motor which was a bit slow. Also fitted a delay to the wipers - which to my surprise actually was not too bad to do.

    We suspect that the vibration at 3000rpm that I was worried about may have been the gearbox - there was a bearing in the torque converter that was rubbing, and the rest was just a mess! I will see when it goes back on the road. So will hold my comments on the engine mounts till then.

    I would agree that the EFI has more power, but the trouble of retrofitting it would mean that it was easier to go some other way.

    I don't know about the P76 V8 - pretty sure it goes the 'right' way, so maybe he reversed the pinion or something in the diff? Not my area of expertise there I am afraid.

    Maybe there is a nice alloy V6 that would go in - although I gather from the Pug forum that the PRV donk is bigger than your average V8, and I don't know of another in north south form that is not too exotic. (discounting 4 cam Fiat's etc - altogether too scary!)

    What about a more modern EFI system plugged into an existing EFI car - much better control of things, with all the stuff already there? Add electronic ignition and it is almost up to date.

    Paul
    Paul Smith

    1974 DS23 EFI BW Auto
    1974 G Special 1220


    http://www.simplicitas.com.au

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! markm's Avatar
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    Paul, I am afraid my engine vibrates at about 3000 rpm also and its only a carb 2 lt. Very interested to hear about the engine mounts when you try them. I am putting Wavebar 8 Kilo soundproofing on the firewall although the resonance comes thru everything.

    Mark McKibbin
    Mark McKibbin

  7. #7
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    well if that 4.4litre alloy V8 (P76 motor) fitted ok. What could be smoother than finding an old injected Rover (basicly the same donk). Installing it with all it's injection hanesses & computers intact (no modification). V8's in there nature are a very smooth vibration free running engines aren't they?? Couple that with the modern fuel injection and effortless V8 torque....

    Then there the other positive, what to do with all that power

    There really isn't any motor that'll fit easily into these cars except maybe CX engines. But hey, there bloody vibrating noisy sluggers too. (though a turbo-II CX engine in a 'D' would be veeerrrryyy interesting). Now you have me thinking CX engines, the PSA 4banger (athena) engine as fitted to the CX, fuego, etc, etc.. would have to fit if they managed to wedge it into the CX. You would still have the running the wrong way problem though. With injection it'd be a nice smooth running motor!! The gain in power over an injected 'D' would be marginal though. But it's smoothness were after here.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! markm's Avatar
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    The engine has to have been built in the last few years, really efficent, like a Honda
    Mark McKibbin

  9. #9
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DoubleChevron:
    <STRONG>Hi Guys,

    Now you have me thinking CX engines, the PSA 4banger (athena) engine as fitted to the CX, fuego, etc, etc.. would have to fit if they managed to wedge it into the CX. You would still have the running the wrong way problem though. With injection it'd be a nice smooth running motor!! The gain in power over an injected 'D' would be marginal though. But it's smoothness were after here.

    seeya,
    Shane L.</STRONG>
    Shane,

    The PSA/Renault engine you refer to is not known for smoothness. Infact many people (including myself) have found it to be harsh in comparison to the older Peugeot pushrod engine (which isn't exactly smooth itself).

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
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  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger!
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    I had a short stroke ID19 and found it quite smooth and relatively quiet. The early short stroke motors seem to rev better than my DS23 engine. Maybe rebuilding the existing engine would help make it more smooth and reduce excess mechanical noise.
    If you want to explore radical modifications such as other engines , you could talk to Arthur Greaves , CCV member, who has had a lot of experience in modifying D's.

  11. #11
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    Why not a very careful rebuild on the larger engine with crank balancing, and close tolerance weight matched rods and pistons ?

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  12. #12
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    My vote is to keep the car as original as possible, certainly rebuild motor and have it professionally balanced, but whilst it's out look at putting in an insulation shield at the firewall as per DS spec cars, new engine and gearbox mounts, replace sound insulation under bonnet, foam under carpet, sound deadening in all doors ect. I also relined my roof using foamed velour it's amazing how much harshness can be taken out of these cars, also make sure door and windows are adjusted to minimize wind noise. Typically a 68 id should be a very pleasant car, don't spoil it with a non Citroen donk.

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

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  13. #13
    rek
    rek is offline
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    Originally posted by markm:
    <STRONG>The engine has to have been built in the last few years, really efficent, like a Honda</STRONG>
    Interesting you mention Honda .. up until very recently (as in new Integra recently), all Honda engines spin the "other" way as well..
    Peter
    2008 Saab 9-3 1.9 TiD Sportcombi
    2011 Volvo C30 DRIVe 1.6D

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