The ultimate tow car?
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  1. #1
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Default The ultimate tow car?

    Just spotted this on the Trading Post.

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    MAKE/MODEL: Citroen XM
    YEAR: 1996
    ODOMETER: 145kms
    PRICE: $20,000.00
    BODY: hatchback
    TRANSMISSION: automatic
    FUEL Diesel
    Citroen XM Exclusive series 2 hatch 1996 turbo diesel, auto, 6 LPN(45mpg), 145kms, met dark green, electric everything, RXA160, RWC, $20,000 no offers (03)54273274 Woodend.
    STATE: VIC FIRST PUBLISHED: 15 Sep 2005
    SOURCE: Private Classifieds (Melbourne Trading Post)
    There you go Shane, another for the collection.

    What a ripper; Turbo diesel and Auto to boot.
    Would make for a very relaxing and speedy caravan holiday.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    Just spotted this on the Trading Post.



    There you go Shane, another for the collection.

    What a ripper; Turbo diesel and Auto to boot.
    Would make for a very relaxing and speedy caravan holiday.


    Alan S
    Missing one of the most crucial points ... Is it a 2.5 or 2.1 ... I think a 2.1 would struggle pulling the big XM and caravan too....

    Do you think Ang would notice if she went out oneday and found that parked in the drive instead of the Xantia

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
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    If it was the same colour she would never notice

  4. #4
    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Trust me Shane, the 2.1 would not struggle one little bit, they go like stink!!!!
    My mate docchevron1472 had a 2.1 auto diesel, which I had a go in, and at 100mph, you felt like you could open the door and step out! (very foolish if you did!)
    It would not notice a caravan, honest!
    john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

  5. #5
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Yeah but it's still a slugomatic ... I think there really good ... If your dissabled I'll get one when my left leg is chopped off for any reason

    Still I think I'd prefer the 2.5, it's a big chunk of capacity to make up for (this isn't a HDi being an XM remember, it's just the old bog standard turbo deisel). You'd be road raged off the road if you tried to cruise everywhere at 80km/h.

    The old CX2.2 deisel non turbo wagon would probably sit on 90+mph too.... I assure you with no doubts at all, it would tow a caravan too.... 1st and 2nd gear would become very popular choices though

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  6. #6
    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    It might only be a 2.1 turbo diesel, BUT you forget it's a 12 valve engine. That makes a big difference! When the turbo comes in at about 1800rpm, you can feel it, OK, not like the cx turbo, but it still pulls very strongly indeed! john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

  7. #7
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I used to haul a trailer years ago that had a 2 ton capacity and was a covered in square looking thing and I towed it on several 800 klms round trips all using an E2200 Mazda diesel van so I can't see that a more modern designed engine with a turbo coupled to an auto would struggle with the average modern low roof caravan.
    The only thing I reckon you'd have to worry about would be how far it might stretch the drawbar.
    But when youthink about it, soup burner, hairdryer, swampbox and hydactive suspension.....what a combination.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! sdabel's Avatar
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    I think this may be the one I was looking at when I got my XM. Can't be to many dark green XM 2.1 TD in victoria!

    It was a UK import so check that the milage is 145km not Miles. Also when I talked to the seller he could not provide any history (all lost when it was imported).

    The 2.1 is a bit slow around town but at highway speeds it has plenty of go when the turbo cuts in. 80 to 100 MPH is where it shines. I am not a fan of autos but it suits the engine and car perfectly except the gearing is not good for 50km/h suburbia. Mine has given no problems but this is the dreaded ZF box that self destructs later in its life.

    From what I have read the 2.5 has over heating problems meaning that most get cracked heads later in life. Blown heads are common place.

    Despite all the above the only reason I don't get this is that I have one!



    regards
    sean
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  9. #9
    Member docchevron1472's Avatar
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    I have to say that the XM I had left France with a 2.0i petrol lump with the ZF auto' box. When purchased the box had no drive so I ripped the whole lot out and dropped another 2.0i auto drivetrain in it. It went well but drank petrol faster than I could throw it in! So I ripped the lump out again and stuffed a 2.1 12v turbo diesel in it, with the correct diesel autobox. It went like hell! The autobox suited the car really well, much more pleasurable to drive than any of the manual XM's I've driven. Alas the crank broke and trashed the engine. By then I'd spent all of my piggy bank so it went to the crushers. I still regret scrapping the car. The paint was awful but the leather interior was great, the climate control was great, it's ability to cruise effortlessly way above the legal limit was great, the fuel economy was great. God I miss that car.
    BX 19RD Hybrid, BX 16Valve Phase 2 , BX 19GTI Hurricane, unique BX 17TD Automatic

  10. #10
    Member docchevron1472's Avatar
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    The 2.5 engine is not a patch on the 2.1. I dont know many people over here that rate them at all. A well set up 2.1 (especially on the s2 XM) is a much better engine.
    The main problem with the autoboxes is overheating. A big problem over here so it must be worse in Australia. I always changed the ATF every 3000miles. So long as the bands are adjusted properly and the pressure is spot on, with regular oil changes the box is easily capable of 250000miles before a rebuild is required
    See ya
    Chris G
    BX 19RD Hybrid, BX 16Valve Phase 2 , BX 19GTI Hurricane, unique BX 17TD Automatic

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! sdabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docchevron1472
    So long as the bands are adjusted properly and the pressure is spot on, with regular oil changes the box is easily capable of 250000miles before a rebuild is required
    See ya
    Chris G
    Now thats put a smile on my face!
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  12. #12
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdabel
    Now thats put a smile on my face!
    Yeah, big difference to the 120K klms that they get out here once our guys start stuffing Dex3 in them hey?

    As a side note to this, we had a bit of a disaster yesterday when a GT-R blew an engine whilst out on a road test. So I got the call to go and rescue it.
    Hooked it onto the Xantia 2.0i and hauled it home like nothing which included one excursion up a slight embankment to get enough room to swing it around fairly quickly on a fairly busy road with a 100kph speed limit and just over a rise.
    When the load was applied, the Xantia sat down in the assend but when the hydractive sensors kicked in and the rear rose quite smartly it gave us enough bite on the front wheels to make the driver of the big ricer pop his eyes almost out the way it hoofed off and sitting on the speed limit was no problem apart from his brake booster being inactive due to the seized engine. Kinda made me feel good, towing something that I'm always hearing has "legendary reliability" with my 227,00 klms old French unreliable FWD that's hopeless for towing with.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  13. #13
    Tadpole
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    Going very slightly off topic for a second here - I have just been googling and reading up about Aussie caravans - and was amazed to find the average weight is about 1700kgs (unladen) - and that the could be towed by a Fraud Falcon - so had a look at wahat the Falcon was and bugger me, if it isnt a Mondeo with a big chuff off engine....

    This is a car that in the UK (with its biggest 2.5L engine) Fraud say is capable of towing only 1300Kgs.

    So what gives - why one rule for Aus and one for the UK????

    I know my HDi Xantia will pull more than Cit UK's recomended 1200KGS - I wanna big Aussie van, not my leaky swift with fold out beds

  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    The aussie cars are bigger and have hugely (ie: massivly) powerful V6 and V8 motors. If I jump in the cheapest crapiest Ford Fowlcan I can buy new it'll tow 2.5tons and do 0-100km/h in 7.8seconds (yes, it's every bit as fast as a CX GTi Turbo) ..... That's the slowest base model They weigh at nearly 2tons if you get the AWD version of the fawlcan wagon.

    eg: My fathers standard 16' quite modern caravan would weigh about 1300kgs empty (which means my CX turbo can legally tow it)......... Or can it, the caravan has a 90kg tongue weight.... CX's is maximum of 75kg if I remember correctly as does the Xantia. My fathers AWD Mastabishi Verada has a 150kg (from memory) tongue weight. Yes the hydraulically suspended doesn't have the tongue weight of the same sized coil sprung local car (stupid or what, we all know the hydraulics Cit's will take massive drawbar weights with no issues). Why do Citroen rate there cars so with so low towing capabilities

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 4th October 2005 at 10:16 PM.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  15. #15
    Moderator vivid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Do you think Ang would notice if she went out oneday and found that parked in the drive instead of the Xantia
    She'd notice a Falcon in its place.

    Just grab a badge off my Fuego or 16 and shove it on the front, tell her its my 16TX project

    David.
    Powered by high grade French plutonium.

  16. #16
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    Shane,

    you've hit the nail on the head with your last post. Whilst owners of other cars install various 'load levelling' devices in order to safely tow heavier loads, the hydraulic Cits on the other hand do all this standard (and take care of the front/rear brake bias at the same time). I don't understand either why, then, they have such a low towball weight rating, thus prohibiting (legally) towing larger vehicles.

    According to the factory workshop manual, the max ball weight for a GS is only 30 kilograms. (OK, I know a GS isn't any good for towing really big loads, but 30kgs?) 75kg for a CX, given its much greater towing ability, isn't any better really.

    Cheers,
    Brett

  17. #17
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brett R
    Shane,

    you've hit the nail on the head with your last post. Whilst owners of other cars install various 'load levelling' devices in order to safely tow heavier loads, the hydraulic Cits on the other hand do all this standard (and take care of the front/rear brake bias at the same time). I don't understand either why, then, they have such a low towball weight rating, thus prohibiting (legally) towing larger vehicles.

    According to the factory workshop manual, the max ball weight for a GS is only 30 kilograms. (OK, I know a GS isn't any good for towing really big loads, but 30kgs?) 75kg for a CX, given its much greater towing ability, isn't any better really.

    Cheers,
    Brett
    It's only the later cars... Eg: a bog standard ID19 can tow 1800kgs with no nose weight specified (they probably figured if the back suspension can lift it, it'll be ok )....... Yet the CX and Xantia that probably weigh MORE than the DS/ID's get these pissy little tow ratings

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    PS: the likelyhood of being booked for to much nose weight with a hydraulic Cit is neglible ... It always looks *perfectly* level and stable regardless of load. The issue is what if you have an accident while towing ... The first thing the insurance company will do is check the weight of the towed vehicle (tongue weight to no doubt) then reneg on your claim
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  18. #18
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    It's only the later cars... Eg: a bog standard ID19 can tow 1800kgs with no nose weight specified (they probably figured if the back suspension can lift it, it'll be ok )....... Yet the CX and Xantia that probably weigh MORE than the DS/ID's get these pissy little tow ratings
    Good point. I wonder if someone litigated after a towing accident and this was the result? It would make sense, we have all seen people grossly overloading their car whilst towing...haven't we? and by the early '70s consumer protectionism was really taking off in many countries. I dare say Ralph Nader would have had a field day with Cits in the '60s (some scribes contend he was very unfair to the Corvair, can't begin to imagine what he would have made of a D series, had he ever met one). I read in a recent magazine that this American bastion of motoring safety in fact never drove...

    Brett

  19. #19
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    If you want to see what over rated towing specs are, be around here in the Tourist season and count the wank tanks upside down with a van attached.
    The manager of one of the local Pubs even managed to take himself out in a Land Bruiser with a 17 foot low roof van only about 20 klms out of town when he went to tow it there for a long weekend break a couple of months back, so I think there's more theory than practical experience in their regulations.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  20. #20
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I think there problem is there w@nk tanks have so much grunt and tow those huge weight quite well........ The old codgers & fools then drive just like they always do .... Like they own the road and there the fastest things on it.... Along the straights they'll be fine, but it'll all go pear shaped really quick when they hit some corners/dips/curragations and decide to hit the anchors or swerve/vear with 2.5tons of caravan following

    Really they should be forced to get an endorsed license if there going to be towing such huge weights. In most of these cases it'll be the driver that's the issue, not the w@nk tank or caravan

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brett R
    According to the factory workshop manual, the max ball weight for a GS is only 30 kilograms.
    Really? I haven't come across that gem before (wasn't on an ADR sticker?). I've got something lying around that says a GS can tow 800kg... now there's eye-watering thought. The delicate aroma of toasted clutch, anyone?

    There is a loony in NZ who's towed a GS, on a trailer, behind another GS. Not just around the corner, either...

    Chris
    GS 1220 break. Beige cars go faster

  22. #22
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    I think there problem is there w@nk tanks have so much grunt and tow those huge weight quite well........ The old codgers & fools then drive just like they always do .... Like they own the road and there the fastest things on it.... Along the straights they'll be fine, but it'll all go pear shaped really quick when they hit some corners/dips/curragations and decide to hit the anchors or swerve/vear with 2.5tons of caravan following

    Really they should be forced to get an endorsed license if there going to be towing such huge weights. In most of these cases it'll be the driver that's the issue, not the w@nk tank or caravan

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    The manager of the pub wasn't old, but what happens is the same old story; too high a centre of gravity and when it gets a sway up it just pings them off the ground. With the short overhang and stiff springs, it doesn't take much to lift the weight off the back wheels.
    Another favourite from accident results I've heard of too is these tossers get that wild outdoors feeling if they engage 4 wheel drive particularly if they've been on something a bit soft and they've deflated the tyres. The thing starts to waddle, they plant it and whichever way the front wheels are pointing is where it sends them. Watching one of those things whipping from one side of the road to the other on soft tyres and in 4 wheel drive is really quite scarey. They seem to go over on the fourth whip across if they make it past the third. It seems that driving wheels getting picked up off the deck, tend to bite pretty hard when they come back down


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris
    Really? I haven't come across that gem before (wasn't on an ADR sticker?). I've got something lying around that says a GS can tow 800kg... now there's eye-watering thought. The delicate aroma of toasted clutch, anyone?

    Chris
    That's also correct Chris. The factory manual specifies a maximum towing capacity of 800kg with trailer brakes, or 440kg without. These figures are straight out of the glovebox manual. What the glovebox manual doesn't tell you, but is included in the factory 'Characterisitics and Adjustments' book under the 'General Characteristics' chapter at the front, is that the max towball weight is only 30kg.

    These figures are the same for 1015 and 1220 by the way, except max gradient with a trailer is 1 in 7 for 1220 and 1 in 9 for 1015. I have towed a 6 by 4 trailer quite full of redgum firewood behind my 1220 in the past on several occasions, as we used to have a wood heater and I was always on the look out for cheap wood. The car managed this surprisingly well, but there was one occasion that was not too good. Around the corner from the place I was living at was a VERY steep hill, ending in a T intersection. Late one night and quite tired, I had my brain in neutral going home and started driving up said hill; realised 2/3 of the way up that it was not a good idea... Only just got out of it by flooring the thing in first at the top, much clutch slip later got it to the top and around the corner. Luckily I didn't have to give way, otherwise I never would have got it moving again, and I didn't relish the prospect of backing it a quarter mile down the hill in the dark. A 1220 GS can tow reasonable loads surprisingly well but I guess a 1220cc engine will always struggle doing a hill start with a loaded trailer...

    The 1015 doesn't have a towbar on it and I wouldn't even contemplate fitting one to it, it is that much peakier that even with 4 passengers and some luggage, a lot of clutch slip is required on a hill in order to take off.

    Cheers,
    Brett

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