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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! doggiedog's Avatar
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    Default CX Brakes

    Hi,
    Another problem has developed with this car, that is unusual, and it concerns the brakes.
    I had just been on the freeway, and came into town, and slowing down to 60km/hr. there was like a shooshing sound coming from the brake pedal, and the brake pedal was pulsating,although the brakes worked ok.Slowed down and turned down a side street, and did several stops, and when braking at 5-10 km/hr, the brake pedal was bouncing up and down about every second, with the brakes coming on and off at the same time.
    I continued home, and the brakes came good and the whooshing sound stopped.
    I checked underneath it when I got home, and there doesnt appear to be a leak, the reservoir level (which had been on the top red mark) has dropped to between the red marks since I last checked it about a week ago.
    I suspect the brake accumulator diaphram has died causing the drop in reservoir level, but I'm not sure if this would cause the brake pulsating and whooshing sound.
    I have another brake accumulator to go on, but i'm just wondering if the problem is more serious, or in another area.
    Also, when I checked the hydraulic reservoir, there was vapour coming out the filler cap, not a real lot, and the oil temp was warmish, like 50-6- deg at a guess.
    Hope someone can shed kight on this problem.
    Thanks
    Terry

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  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Top the reseviour up (tap the indicator with your finger and see if it's stuck at the top of it's travel). You check the level with the car on 'high'.

    Then bleed the brakes. It sounds to me like you have air in the brakes.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! doggiedog's Avatar
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    The level seemed still ok, the level on high position was almost up to the crease in the reservoir, which is a bit low, but not excessively so, ( i think), but I did come back through the hills last night which had some very tight bends, (and I did say at the time "gee this thing handles well"), so maybe the sideways rocking of the car and the reservoir on its lower limits of level allowed air to enter the system.

    Or maybe the brake sphere diaphram has died, letting nitrogen into the system for a short time, (until it was vented back to the tank ?).
    Funny thing is though, I took it for a spin to get some tea, and the brakes are fine again.
    Thanks Terry

  4. #4
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggiedog
    The level seemed still ok, the level on high position was almost up to the crease in the reservoir, which is a bit low, but not excessively so, ( i think), but I did come back through the hills last night which had some very tight bends, (and I did say at the time "gee this thing handles well"), so maybe the sideways rocking of the car and the reservoir on its lower limits of level allowed air to enter the system.

    Or maybe the brake sphere diaphram has died, letting nitrogen into the system for a short time, (until it was vented back to the tank ?).
    Funny thing is though, I took it for a spin to get some tea, and the brakes are fine again.
    Thanks Terry
    Ahhh, so you were giving those massive brakes with 4piston calipers upfront and 2piston calipers at the back a hammering were you You know when you have big brakes, they generate big heat.

    The brake circuit is a dead end circuit, the fluid never circulates. I suggest you had the fluid in the lines boiling. I'm sure if you bleed some fluid through the brakes you'll be terrified at the black watery shit that comes out of the bleed screws, followed by nice green fresh LHM. No doubt the fluid in the brakes hasn't been bleed through for many, many, many years and is full of moisture and completely broken down.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    Fellow Frogger! doggiedog's Avatar
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    Well!!!!
    Actually it was the night before that it received the hammering, and the next day when the brakes started pulsating, after a leisurely drive down the freeway. But, yes I will change the accumulator which I have been putting off for some time now, and bleed those brakes.
    I just have to source some LHM fluid around here, or go to Melb to get it, as the only stuff I can find is at the local Truck place, and they want $17 for a small(500ml) bottle of Castrol.
    By the way, do Ducelleor points have a circlip holding then in, as I have to sort that one out today, as well. The points keep riding up the pivot shaft.

    Thanks
    Terry

  6. #6
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Actually changing the main accumulator will not help. Your car being an aussie imported C-matic has two brake accumulators (to cater for the wierd diagonal braking systems our laws demanded).

    You have the additional brake accumulator above the hydraulic pump, and the hidden brake accumulator below the radiator in the same corner as the battery.... It's this one that tends to be ignored and never checked due to the difficultly in accessing it.

    Yeah the points should have a circlip to hold then. Isn't there a cutout at the top of the shaft where the circlip will clip in

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    Fellow Frogger! doggiedog's Avatar
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    Hi,
    It is the brake accumulator I am going to change, the hard to get to one (which is why it has been sitting in the boot for a month!!), but I will have to bite the bullet and do it.
    There is a cut out for a circlip, but wasnt sure if there was meant to be one, as I have never seen points with a circlip before. I will have to try and find something to fit, that isnt going to fall out and get chewed up by the weights.
    Thanks
    terry

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    Fellow Frogger! doggiedog's Avatar
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    I said the car was running OK Didnt I, WRONG,
    I took it for a drive today, and What a Dog of a thing to drive.
    It has gone from being a pleasure to drive one day to the thing barely running, major flat spot in acceleration, and the steering going hard at low revs (sometimes), but the brakes seem ok.
    Think I.ll start on the engine/carby/distributor, then progress to the hydraulics.
    Terry

  9. #9
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Where abouts do you live... I reckon given half a day we could go over your CX and see what's going on ... My guess is your points have closed up again....

    It's not abnormal for a CX to run out of power steering when doing 'U' turns ect... Particually if the pump is slow, or the main accumulator is low, most certianly if the LHM is low. Are you sure this car has enough LHM in it. The level indicators in the tank can stick giving a false high reading regardless of the real level.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  10. #10
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Forgot to mention, check that the feed line (big rubber one) from the reseviour has no cracks in it, and has nice snug hose clamps both ends. If your pump manages to suck air, you will end up with the symptoms you describe too.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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  11. #11
    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Default bleeding brakes

    What is 5the sequence for bleeding the brakes on an ABS equipped car? I tried bleeding the rear brakes on my turbo, but not much air came out, which is surprising, as it's been re-piped! Is there a bleed screw on the ABS block? I can't see one, even on the spare one I have on the bench.
    My method, was to have the car on normal height with the engine running, and using a long broom handle to press the brake pedal, release the bleed screw.
    Before you start laughing, remember this is the first Hydro citroen I've had, so I gotta learn somehow! john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smiffy1071
    What is 5the sequence for bleeding the brakes on an ABS equipped car? I tried bleeding the rear brakes on my turbo, but not much air came out, which is surprising, as it's been re-piped! Is there a bleed screw on the ABS block? I can't see one, even on the spare one I have on the bench.
    My method, was to have the car on normal height with the engine running, and using a long broom handle to press the brake pedal, release the bleed screw.
    Before you start laughing, remember this is the first Hydro citroen I've had, so I gotta learn somehow! john s
    Let me guess, your getting no air ... Yet no fluid really either.

    Yeah I use the broomstick trick to The back brakes have pressure applied depending on the rear suspension pressure. Car sitting there idling at normal ride height == bugger all pressure in the rear suspension == bugger all pressure applied to the rear brakes.

    I do it the quick 'n' dirty way .... It's probably not the correct 'factory' way to do it ... but .... I put the car on 'high' you know have full system pressure in the rear suspension circuit, so full pressure to the rear brakes. make sure you have eye protection, and don't let exposed skin hit if the LHM decided to come out of the bleed screw under great pressure (it shouldn't come out to fast, especially given the air that will be there).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    PS: Don't take this the wrong way ... But do make sure you have enough LHM in the reseviour (don't ask ).
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    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Let me guess, your getting no air ... Yet no fluid really either.

    Yeah I use the broomstick trick to The back brakes have pressure applied depending on the rear suspension pressure. Car sitting there idling at normal ride height == bugger all pressure in the rear suspension == bugger all pressure applied to the rear brakes.

    I do it the quick 'n' dirty way .... It's probably not the correct 'factory' way to do it ... but .... I put the car on 'high' you know have full system pressure in the rear suspension circuit, so full pressure to the rear brakes. make sure you have eye protection, and don't let exposed skin hit if the LHM decided to come out of the bleed screw under great pressure (it shouldn't come out to fast, especially given the air that will be there).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    PS: Don't take this the wrong way ... But do make sure you have enough LHM in the reseviour (don't ask ).
    Yes, I have 10 litres of LHM on standby! I will get this car finished if it bloody kills me! Many thanks for that, I thought the weight compensator might have something to do with it! john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

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    Hi
    I am in Latrobe Valley, which is the other side of Melb. I seem to have fixed the engine problem, well narrowed it down anyway, to the points, and more crap in the carby jets.
    As far as the hydraulics are concerned, the brakes are now fine, but the steering is very dodgey, ok on the road, but a soon as you get to a corner it starts loosing power, and impossible to park in the supermarket.

    It used to lose power steering occasionally doing U-Turns etc, so I reckon I might have to put on the brake accumulator(which I have already got), replace the other brake one, and possibly the main one as well(although the regulator is only cutting in every 35 sec or so).
    Then do a complete hrdraulic change including bleeding the brakes.
    The suction pipe to the pump seems fine.

    I'm going to have to leave the car for a few days though, as my Mum was taken to Hospital last night with that flu thing going round,(so the CX will have to wait).
    Terry

  15. #15
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    No worries,

    the brake acumulators will have no impact on your steering. 35seconds is quite good, so I doubt your main accumulator is flat. I suggest cleaning the filters in the LHM reseviour, blocked filters will slow the steering. Failing that it sounds like your car has a weak hydrualic pump (it's very rare for a hydraulic pump to die ... They just get slower and slower and slower ................................).

    I'm guessing a lot of wear is caused on the pump from dirty fluid and flat accumulator spheres. If you exhaust all other avenues I do have grubby looking 5cylinder pumps here. I'll have to investigate and see if they can be shaft driven like the C-matics.

    Later CX's and BX's have a smaller 5cylinder pump that has a higher output. The earlier 7cylinder pumps are physically larger but output less fluid with each rotation. 5cylinder pumps are a good upgrade for CX's that run out of power steering.

    seeya,
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    Icon5 will they fit

    Will they fit on the turbo?
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARCHRIVAL
    Will they fit on the turbo?
    Being a later CX it should already have one. It'll look just like the BX pump.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    Hi,
    A few more symptoms, but not had a chance to look too close, but took it for another spin, and now the brakes sometimes are delayed a bit, other times not, sometimes it seems the left brakes before the right.
    The steering is strange as well, in that you can go round a bend, and return to straight ahead, and the steering wheel is not quite central, but give it a bit of a wiggle, and and it centres, and sometimes small off centre movements dont do much.
    To my way of thinking, its as is the whole system has pockets of air/gas, although the suspension still seems to work ok.
    I dont think I will drive it anymore until I sort this lot out.

    Terry

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    Terry,

    The suspension will work quite happily with air in it. The brakes... won't. Bear in mind that the rear brake pressure is supplied from the rear suspension circuit, so air in the rear suspension will do funny things to the brakes. This also means that if you bleed the rear brakes, give them a really good bleed as the air could be a long way up the pipe.

    If you're getting air into the system left right and centre, check for cracks or a loose fitting on the supply hose to the pump. If that's the problem you'll never get ahead of it with bleeding etc. If it gets bad enough the car won't rise at all and you'll be on the side of the road wrapping electrical tape around the cracks in the hose... from personal experience

    Chris
    GS 1220 break. Beige cars go faster

  20. #20
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggiedog
    Hi,
    A few more symptoms, but not had a chance to look too close, but took it for another spin, and now the brakes sometimes are delayed a bit, other times not, sometimes it seems the left brakes before the right.
    The steering is strange as well, in that you can go round a bend, and return to straight ahead, and the steering wheel is not quite central, but give it a bit of a wiggle, and and it centres, and sometimes small off centre movements dont do much.
    To my way of thinking, its as is the whole system has pockets of air/gas, although the suspension still seems to work ok.
    I dont think I will drive it anymore until I sort this lot out.

    Terry
    Sounds very much like low LHM (which we have previoulsy rules out a number of times) or a sphere slowly letting it's gas out into the hydraulic system.

    You really need to get each sphere off and get it pressure tested, especially the accumulators and rear spheres.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
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  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! doggiedog's Avatar
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    Now that the parents are out of hospital (yep both of them had the dreaded flu),
    I have had time to look at the CX.
    I changed the fluid, cleaned the filters, bled the front brakes, (little bit of whitish stuff came out, then clean LHM), bled the rear brakes (same whitish stuff as the front) and got some air? out of the rear pass side.
    I ran the engine on normal susp height with the regulator bleed nut loosened for a few minutes to get the thing to self bleed.
    Test drove, brakes perfect, steering light at parking speeds, but still when doing right hand turns, when turning the wheel back to centre, the straight ahead position has the spoke at 7 (on the clock), if that makes sense, until I turn the wheek to the left, then the straight ahead position comes good.
    Also, turning left, the steering appears normal ( in ratio), but turning right for the first 20 degrees, the steering appears to be a greater ratio, ie doesnt have as much steerig effect. Initially I thought it may be air in the line to one side of the rack, but I'm not sure. I'm hoping its not the steering control unit failing.

    After about 30 mins of driving, the steering seems to be getting worse, ie goes hard on parking, and occasionally tightens up around town going around roundabouts, both turning into and out the turn.
    It seems I have 2 issues, one being air(gas) getting into the system, and the other being the way the steering is behaving. I'm hoping the 2 are caused by the same fault.
    My next line of attack I guess will be to get the 2 brake spheres and the main accumulator sphere checked.
    I have a spare pump in the shed, I might put that on this weekend to see if that makes any difference, do I need to get new bits of rubber tubing for the hydraulic connections, and is there any special trick to align the pump coupling up?

    Any comments/suggestions most welcome

    Terry

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    Fellow Frogger! chris's Avatar
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    At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, check for air leaks into the suction side of the pump. You've obviously got something funky going on, and a ruptured sphere should be well and truly flat by now, so if air is getting in it can only be before the pump...

    Chris
    GS 1220 break. Beige cars go faster

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    The hose from the reservoir to the pump is in good condition, I've checked every inch of the hose, the clamps, theres no cracks anywhere along it, and the hose is on tight. I've even checked the connection at the top of the reservoir for cracks.
    The only other thing I've thought of is the pump itself is sucking in air, but not sure if this possible.
    Terry

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggiedog
    The hose from the reservoir to the pump is in good condition, I've checked every inch of the hose, the clamps, theres no cracks anywhere along it, and the hose is on tight. I've even checked the connection at the top of the reservoir for cracks.
    The only other thing I've thought of is the pump itself is sucking in air, but not sure if this possible.
    Terry
    Hi Terry, it is possible if you have a crack in the pumps main body...which can happen if the main body is aluminium, and if it's been run for a long time with a flat accumulator sphere. This could introduce air into the system.
    I hope that's not the case, but if it is, try fitting a spare main pump to see if that fixes the problem.
    BTW...a broken main body should leak LHM somewhere ...should be evident somewhere around the pump. If there's no leakage it might/ should be ok.
    Cheers...George 1/8th

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    Hi All,
    Well the story so far.
    Yesterday I took the main accumulator and second brake sphere off and had them pressure tested, the main was at 50bar, so had this regassed, and I knew when I took the brake one off it was cactus, as the lhm that came out of it was emulsified with gas, and looking at the sphere in my hand there were bubbles of gas coming out of it, so of course when it was tested, it was no good, so bought a new one.
    Installed both spheres, put the new one on the regulator, and the regassed one for the brakes. Bled the system, took for a drive still no better.

    Today replaced the HP pump with the one I had in the shed, (easier than i thought), it was worse than the origiinal pump, the steering wouldnt operate under power at all.

    Put the original pump back on, but this time I gave the system a really good bleed, thinking I've got to try something, so whilst bleeding I operated the height control lever several times, operated the steering left to right a bit, even gave the brakes a few squirts, shut the bleed nut whilst the engine was running, and the steering is now as light as a feather, almost.

    But alas even though the steering is light, it still has the problem of the straight ahead position of the steering wheel moving after going around bends, or will be going along straight, and all of a sudden the car will start steering the the left a bit of its own accord, and needs to be corrected with the steering, which is a bit un-nerving.
    So I hopefully have solved the lack of power assistance problem, being air in the system.
    I'm hoping this other problem is also air in the system, possibly in the control unit.
    My next job is to change the other hard to get to brake sphere (I know I should have done it already), then rebleed the system.
    Does anyone know of a method of bleeding the control unit?

    Terry

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