DS V8 or 4-6 engine conversions,anyone done it
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  1. #1
    Member levit8's Avatar
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    Icon3 DS V8 or 4-6 engine conversions,anyone done it

    hey guys,
    just curious as to if anyone has either fitted or attempted to fit a V8 or any other non CITROEN 4,6,8 cylinder engine
    just an idea as i may have access to an incomplete DS and do have a 4.4 aluminium V8 (ex P76) sitting around waiting to be used.
    am really just wondering if anyone out there has transplanted other engines and if so which ones, is there anyone out there that does conversion kits ( me thinks not)
    probably a dumb post but no harm in asking (hopefully) thanks

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  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I've heard of the 4.4 Valient motor being put in there before (possibly Auther Grives) .... I'm not sure if he was pulling my leg though, as the motor would need to be quite narrow to fit between the front longerons. Only one way to tell ........... It probably wouldn't weigh much more than the cast iron 4banger being an all alloy V8 too.

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    Fellow Frogger! Paul Smith's Avatar
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    As always the direction of rotation is the issue - if you don't want to modify the transaxle you have to find an engine that rotates the 'wrong' way, like a D, and they seem to be few and far between - there is apparently a Honda 5 cyl that was fitted to US cars that sounds interesting!

    But something high revving like the Honda would not really suit the D's nature - I would prefer a nice lazy (and comparatively light) V8 if it could be made to fit. There is a guy in England who has squeezed an SM engine in, so in theory it can be done. Just depends on how much time (and money ) you are prepared to throw at it I expect.

    Paul
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    Fellow Frogger! mattg's Avatar
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    Pleased to see some one else thinking Speed with these cars.

    I have been thinking about this and have thrown around the idea of fitting a Turbo or Supercharger to one of the 2.3 engines. Along with new fuel injection from a Motec or computer. I figure it is easyer to make the the standard engine go then fit a v8 donk. Is it possible to bore these engines out to 2.5 or biger I would need to get custom pistons anyway. does anyone make stronger rods for the DS?

    Thats my thoughts anyway

    Very interested to see if you can fit the V8. Maybe the Lexus 4lt V8 would fit. I've seen them in quite small engine bays. they are light too.

    Cheers
    MattG
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    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Smith
    As always the direction of rotation is the issue - if you don't want to modify the transaxle you have to find an engine that rotates the 'wrong' way, like a D, and they seem to be few and far between - there is apparently a Honda 5 cyl that was fitted to US cars that sounds interesting!

    But something high revving like the Honda would not really suit the D's nature - I would prefer a nice lazy (and comparatively light) V8 if it could be made to fit. There is a guy in England who has squeezed an SM engine in, so in theory it can be done. Just depends on how much time (and money ) you are prepared to throw at it I expect.

    Paul
    I have posted pics of that car on this forum, but I don't know how to link this thread to that one.
    However, this weekend, I'm off to a big Citroen rally, and the SM powered DS convertable will no doubt be there! I'll get some more pics then. john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

  6. #6
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    My two bobs would be that a supercharger would be pretty interesting..
    Some exhaust work would go along with this modification too??

    Does anyone know of a supercharger that would be suitable?

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    Fellow Frogger! chris's Avatar
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    I hear tell the CX engine will fit, with a bit of faffing about. Well, it should really, being the same engine and all...

    All you need is a CX turbo donor car

    Chris
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I've got a T3 garret with wastegate and manifold sitting in my shed. If from a CX diesel, however you will probably find the bolt pattern is the same as the DS head.... So if it would fit it'll bolt straight on ..... It'll be VERY cramped down the side of the motor if that blower did fit there though

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    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris
    I hear tell the CX engine will fit, with a bit of faffing about. Well, it should really, being the same engine and all...

    All you need is a CX turbo donor car

    Chris
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  10. #10
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris
    I hear tell the CX engine will fit, with a bit of faffing about. Well, it should really, being the same engine and all...

    All you need is a CX turbo donor car

    Chris
    Yep,

    however you'd have a really good bunch of reverse gears in the DS, but only one almost useful forward gear ...... Remember the direction the motor spins bit again ....

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron
    My two bobs would be that a supercharger would be pretty interesting..
    Some exhaust work would go along with this modification too??

    Does anyone know of a supercharger that would be suitable?
    I saw the supercharger off a 2 litre Toyota six that looked like it might work - it was fairly big - about the size of 2 modern A/C compressors, but if you were prepared to add modern mapped EFI then I think that would be the way to go - with things like a switched ignition timing for when the supercharger was on - with throttle control. These could be bought (attached to a complete DOHC 6 ) for about $4-600 a couple of years ago, but I don't know about now.

    You could possibly even modify the current EFI air intake system and keep it - it does not seem to be a bad design.

    The exhaust manifolds of a 23 look pretty optimised to me - and you really could not fit a proper set of extractors in there without an enormous amount of work.

    I think your biggest problem would be (as usual in a late D ) getting rid of the heat generated by such a setup - lots of insulation on the firewall and some very big fans on the radiator - there was a setup in the UK (maybe it was the SM engined car?) where they had mounted the radiator flat where the duct normally goes with two electric fans - the spare I assume was in the boot. That would also free up a lot of room to put the ancillaries if you wanted.

    It's an interesting thought, but I think my car will remain it's fairly standard self.

    Paul
    Paul Smith

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  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! ARCHRIVAL's Avatar
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    Icon6 very interesting

    Sprintex in WA have a whole range of compact superchargers . They are currently selling 2 of their test bed cars a 4wd magna and a 2000 mustang both with outragous power figures ,they also helped develop the bullet a mazda mx5 clone with a super charged lexus 4l V8
    . How strong is the d transaxle and drive shafts . Does the Merak motor also rotate backwards ?
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  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARCHRIVAL
    How strong is the d transaxle and drive shafts . Does the Merak motor also rotate backwards ?
    If you manage to blow one up (even with a supercharged V8 bolted upto it), I'll GIVE you another gearbox/driveshaft .... Yep there very, very, very tough. The accelleration forces applied to the driveshafts wouldn't be huge as compared to the horendous braking forces that can be put through them with those MASSIVE inboard high pressure disk brakes.

    The gearboxs I've heard used to be turned around and put in the back of various dragcars (due to there incredible strength combined with the fact they turn 'backwards' as compared to other gearboxs).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARCHRIVAL
    How strong is the d transaxle and drive shafts . Does the Merak motor also rotate backwards ?
    The D transaxle is remarkably strong (for something that started in a 75HP car), but has it's limits - the early Lotus Esprit Turbos use D gearboxes and they push the final drive to its limits (I've seen the bits of a dead one ) - that's why they used the Renault box in later cars.

    The SM engine rotates backwards, but not the Merak - it doesn't need to as they just turned the whole gearbox around - there is a great (probably apocryphal) story about Lotus, who after deciding to use the D gearbox in the Esprit were working out complicated things to modify the box so that their car would not have 5 reverse gears, when they suddenly realised that as the D engine rotated backwards anyway it was just a matter of turning the whole thing a**e about and it would work with a 'normal' engine.

    Most of the componentry of a Merak SS can be fitted to an SM engine - there is an SM in Wollongong that reputedly puts out around 300HP - sounds amazing .

    Paul
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Smith
    - that's why they used the Renault box in later cars.
    You could use the 367 four speed, 369 five speed or UN1 five speed as used on the Renault 25 and 30 V6ís, Renault 21Tís and Renault Alpine V6ís if it could be adapted to fit, and fit up the gear change. On these the diff can be flopped from either side to reverse its direction.

  16. #16
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    You would use the 4spd DS gearbox, the 5spd'er isn't as reliable. The only 4spd DS gearbox I've ever heard of that expired turned out to be full of water instead of oil

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    Going from slightly strange to the insane, how about fitting an old aircooled Porsche or watercooled Subaru flat six as a homage to the original DS design brief?

  18. #18
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon
    Going from slightly strange to the insane, how about fitting an old aircooled Porsche or watercooled Subaru flat six as a homage to the original DS design brief?
    Engine width is a real issue in the DS... It needs to be a narrow motor to fit between the chassis longerons (BTW: no they can't be move, the suspension is bolted to them ).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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  19. #19
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    I've been looking at this one for quite a while now and have decided on the following (to be fitted to a 1964 ID19 rally car which currently has a connaught twin carb head 3 bearing engine).

    After looking at all of the possible engine configerations that could be adapted to the current transaxle think it's probably easiest to go forced induction on the old iron block engine. Have chosen a D special engine to turbo. I like superchargers but takeing a drive off the front of the engine to run a twin screw blower is a bit dodgy, a vortex blower which has low start up inertia would be great but are expensive. The 2.3 engines tend to have more craked webbing in the block than the 2.1 engines so think boreing out to 2.5 might be a problem. 'floping' the diff on the 5 speed is out of the question as far as I know. The anti clockwise honda engines would be really nice as they produce good bottom end power as well as power at high rpm but there's all of those fitting problems with adaptop plates, exhaust, starter motor etc.

    This is the plan to date. Rebuild the bottom end to suite including ceramic coated forged pistons at 8.5 to 1 and well balanced. Stainless exhaust valves and undercut cam to suite. O-ring the head. Fabricated exhaust manifold (ceramic coated and tape wraped) feeding forward to the turbo which will sit forward of the normal radiator position, exhaust waste pipe runs straight down past the right hand caliper and rearward, radiator is relocated in a horizontal position above the normal air intake with twin thurmo fans and an air to air intercooler, charge exits intercooler on left hand side of engine and feeds engine on left hand side of head as per normal. Laying the radiator down allows plenty of room for plumbing and also for directing heated air from radiator/intercooler/turbo down under the car rather than back into the engine bay.

    This is of course being done on a car which is allready a rally car and no concern is being given to conventional spare wheel. Money permiting will also include a Davis Craig electric water pump.

    Any comment or fed back greatfully accepted.

    Chris.
    1964 Type 3 Squareback. 1974 L Bug.

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Engine width is a real issue in the DS... It needs to be a narrow motor to fit between the chassis longerons (BTW: no they can't be move, the suspension is bolted to them ).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    The flat-six engine was meant to be mounted in front of the axle as I understand it, like the 2CV and GS. That's why they ended up with room for the spare tyre there, and that dirty great bulge into the passenger compartment for the straight-four engine.

    A Subaru engine might even fit, if you mounted it that way

    Chris
    GS 1220 break. Beige cars go faster

  21. #21
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Dunham
    I've been looking at this one for quite a while now and have decided on the following (to be fitted to a 1964 ID19 rally car which currently has a connaught twin carb head 3 bearing engine).

    After looking at all of the possible engine configerations that could be adapted to the current transaxle think it's probably easiest to go forced induction on the old iron block engine. Have chosen a D special engine to turbo. I like superchargers but takeing a drive off the front of the engine to run a twin screw blower is a bit dodgy, a vortex blower which has low start up inertia would be great but are expensive. The 2.3 engines tend to have more craked webbing in the block than the 2.1 engines so think boreing out to 2.5 might be a problem. 'floping' the diff on the 5 speed is out of the question as far as I know. The anti clockwise honda engines would be really nice as they produce good bottom end power as well as power at high rpm but there's all of those fitting problems with adaptop plates, exhaust, starter motor etc.

    This is the plan to date. Rebuild the bottom end to suite including ceramic coated forged pistons at 8.5 to 1 and well balanced. Stainless exhaust valves and undercut cam to suite. O-ring the head. Fabricated exhaust manifold (ceramic coated and tape wraped) feeding forward to the turbo which will sit forward of the normal radiator position, exhaust waste pipe runs straight down past the right hand caliper and rearward, radiator is relocated in a horizontal position above the normal air intake with twin thurmo fans and an air to air intercooler, charge exits intercooler on left hand side of engine and feeds engine on left hand side of head as per normal. Laying the radiator down allows plenty of room for plumbing and also for directing heated air from radiator/intercooler/turbo down under the car rather than back into the engine bay.

    This is of course being done on a car which is allready a rally car and no concern is being given to conventional spare wheel. Money permiting will also include a Davis Craig electric water pump.

    Any comment or fed back greatfully accepted.

    Chris.
    I hope your keeping the existing motor incase someone wants to put in back in the future

    You may be able to save some serious $$$ if you investigate the stud pattern on the head. If it's the same as a CX turbo you may be able to save consiberable $$$$$ by sourcing a CX manifold with the T3 Garret already attached

    better still Import a CX front cut and get yourself a nice GTi turbo motor that's supremely reliable and get it to work backwards.

    IMO this would work out a lot cheaper than spending big $$$ on machining and rebuilding a DS motor to take a turbo.... And we already know the CX motors are near indestructable.

    There is a Turbo II motor and gearbox at Martin Brays, I'm unsure how much he would want for it.

    I guessing you would need to:
    --modify the oil pump drive to run backwards
    --change the sump
    --change the timing chain tensioners
    --use the DS starter
    --maybe change the camshaft so the motor can be started and run in the backwards direction.

    With minor ignition ECU changes these motors put out a (very) reliable 200+hp with (300Nm++++++++) torque.

    I'm thinking cheap and reliable (as in Citroen would have spent millions perfecting this, why re-create the wheel ).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! mattg's Avatar
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    Wouldn't it be easyer to to convert a gearbox or diff then run an engine backwards?

    Chris, how much power is the current set up producing? and what form of rallying do you do in it?

    Cheers
    Last edited by mattg; 16th August 2005 at 04:34 PM.
    MattG
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattg
    Wouldn't it be easyer to to convert a gearbox or diff then run an engine backwards?

    Chris, how much power is the current set up producing? and what form of rallying do you do in it?

    Cheers
    I don't do any rallying at all (I'm an ex motorcycle racer that couldent pilot a 4 wheeler if my life depended on it). The ID was raced in the last Aus time trial (1995) and I've just gone through it and put it back on the road, I'm guessing it makes about 110bhp

    The existing engine is a work of art and the smoothest D engine I've ever seen, certainly won't be throwing it out.

    Shane,

    Looked at the CX backwards option, too much work and too many compromises as there would still be available space and heat problems to overcome. Both options (CX block or 5 bearing D block would both require a crank up build so dont really see where the saveing would be.

    I thought the CX engine was for all intent esentially a 5 bearing D with a 10 or 15 degree slant ?

    Chris.
    1964 Type 3 Squareback. 1974 L Bug.

  24. #24
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Dunham
    I don't do any rallying at all (I'm an ex motorcycle racer that couldent pilot a 4 wheeler if my life depended on it). The ID was raced in the last Aus time trial (1995) and I've just gone through it and put it back on the road, I'm guessing it makes about 110bhp

    The existing engine is a work of art and the smoothest D engine I've ever seen, certainly won't be throwing it out.

    Shane,

    Looked at the CX backwards option, too much work and too many compromises as there would still be available space and heat problems to overcome. Both options (CX block or 5 bearing D block would both require a crank up build so dont really see where the saveing would be.

    I thought the CX engine was for all intent esentially a 5 bearing D with a 10 or 15 degree slant ?

    Chris.
    Actually I was thinking it would be cheaper as:

    --you have injection
    --you have a knock sender (no worrying about detonation with the turbo)
    --ie: everything is already sorted.

    You wouldn't even need to pull the head off.

    I imagine the only and main expense is the camshaft so the motor can run backwards and oil pump.

    If you turbo the DS motor you really would want it to be the DS21 injected motor. This would mean you really want an aftermarket fueling system that allows the use of a knock sender..... ie: lots and lots and lots of $$$$.

    My main consideration being the reliability of the car once you have spent the $$$$ and have the finished product (that's why the CX's motor is so enticing .... It already exists, and it's strength and reliability are beyond reproach).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    I imagine the only and main expense is the camshaft so the motor can run backwards and oil pump.
    The Renault R4 and Dauphine engines rotate in opposite directions. The cranks are different in that the oil ways are drilled to suit the rotation of the motor, as well as the oil scrolls, the pistons are reversed, the con rods are reversed, and the clutch has different springs (as well as the different cam) so there are a few considerations in reversing the direction of a motor.

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