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    Default BX coolant loss

    My BX TRi is losing coolant somewhere, enough for the low level indicator to come on in say 20-25km, but I can't see where it is going.

    The oil filler cap & the filler itself is ominously creamy, with a slight green tinge, but the oil on the dipstick looks normal.

    I'm guessing it's a head gasket. Is there anything else that would/could cause the same symptoms? The car itself runs fine & the idle is good - no missing or anything like that.

    Thanks,

    Barry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barryg
    My BX TRi is losing coolant somewhere, enough for the low level indicator to come on in say 20-25km, but I can't see where it is going.

    The oil filler cap & the filler itself is ominously creamy, with a slight green tinge, but the oil on the dipstick looks normal.

    I'm guessing it's a head gasket. Is there anything else that would/could cause the same symptoms? The car itself runs fine & the idle is good - no missing or anything like that.

    Thanks,

    Barry.
    First port of call is to check under the carpets for signs of moisture. A lot can bleed through without being noticed at times.
    Second place is the hose that leads to the pump intake. That one's a trap because it doesn't leak often until 5 minutes after the car has stopped, sometimes even longer. Also, throw a new radiator cap on as a precaution; a standard 1 bar cap is all that's required.
    The creamy stuff in the filler neck is what was commonly called overseas, "Mayonnaise" due to it's appearance. It is caused through a an engine thermostat being jammed open which allows the engine to run too cool and is particularly common on cars used for shopping trolleys or to commute to work due to the formation of condensation and it mixing in the oil. There have been cases reported where it has become so thick that the blow by has actually blown the dipstick right out of it's holder. The filler/breather system needs to be taken out as much as possible and the muck cleaned and washed out followed by a new filter and fresh oil whilst at the same time fitting a new thermostat.
    If the matrix is leaking, current method of repair (believe it or not) is a bottle of Radweld, Barr's Leaks or Chemiweld into the cooling system. This is what has been getting done overseas based on a recommendation from Valeo.
    They apparently are recommending it as a precautionary measure upon the istallation of a new matrix or radiator. I did comment a while back that the matrix in particular is a worry the way it's constructed with each of the pipes in the core being sealed off at the end by a series of "O" rings and this apparently is the way they've seen to fix that risk.
    As a fringe benefit, the stop leaks also are an anti corrosive and in the case of Barr's Leaks it also has a soluble oil in t which also tends to make the water pump run quieter.
    I've done it on both of my cars in the past few weeks with all the temps remaining normal.



    Alan S
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    .................Second place is the hose that leads to the pump intake. That one's a trap because it doesn't leak often until 5 minutes after the car has stopped..................,Alan S

    Hi Alan

    Could you tell me a bit more about location of this pipe as I have this exact problem and just cant find were it is.

    Terry


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    Terry,


    Jack the car up, remove the Christmas Tree clips and remove the black plastic inner guard.
    You'll find there's a hose held into position on a retainer on the inner guard. Follow that pipe up under the engine and it's the one that is the water return hose to the water pump.
    Check the elbow closely for softness or cracks. Check also at the front to be sure the alternator pulley or bet hasn't cut through it. If it's shagged, you're looking down the barrel at around $350 for a new one!!
    Your other alternative is the mod I have shown here which is on the Citroentech private board (so you and a couple of others on here are the only ones who can see it - before everybody tells me that the link won't work.)

    http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group...c=gr%26.view=t

    If that's not the one, then grab a spotlight and take a cose look above the pump on the back of the engine block.



    Alan S
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    Alan, exactly which radiator sealant did you use? I might try this as I still get that very slight coolant smell in the car, but I can't feel any coolant at all in the car on the carpet or anywhere else, even sticking my hand up under the trim and touching the matrix (ouch). I also have to add about 200ml of coolant a fortnight.

    Incidentally, I read somewhere on the net that the better of these sealers uses ground up walnut shells (true!) ground to such a size that the particles can slip through leaking gaps. They swell as they dry in contact with air and block the leak.

    Cheers

    Stuey
    Last edited by Stuey; 31st July 2005 at 10:33 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    Terry,


    Jack the car up, remove the Christmas Tree clips and remove the black plastic inner guard.
    You'll find there's a hose held into position on a retainer on the inner guard. Follow that pipe up under the engine and it's the one that is the water return hose to the water pump.
    Check the elbow closely for softness or cracks. Check also at the front to be sure the alternator pulley or bet hasn't cut through it. If it's shagged, you're looking down the barrel at around $350 for a new one!!
    Your other alternative is the mod I have shown here which is on the Citroentech private board (so you and a couple of others on here are the only ones who can see it - before everybody tells me that the link won't work.)

    http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group...c=gr%26.view=t

    If that's not the one, then grab a spotlight and take a cose look above the pump on the back of the engine block.



    Alan S
    Thanks Alan


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    Stuey,

    I just used Barr's leaks as did Chris when his 16V dropped its guts at UQ (and hasn't leaked since) and you might be right about the contents; my mate up here rescons it's made from pepper and soluble oil.
    I have a 5,000 gallon tank leaking at present and as it costs more to break up and dump than it does to replace, I use it as a back up tank interconnected to the main tank supply and to limit loss, I throw a shovel ful of cement powder into it occasionally. This finds it's way into the cracks and swells and dries and is progressively sealing the leaks up. Same principle as the Barrs.
    Overseas they recommend this, Radweld and a couple of others all which seem to do the job.

    Alan S
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    Stuey,

    I just used Barr's leaks as did Chris when his 16V dropped its guts at UQ (and hasn't leaked since) and you might be right about the contents; my mate up here rescons it's made from pepper and soluble oil.
    I have a 5,000 gallon tank leaking at present and as it costs more to break up and dump than it does to replace, I use it as a back up tank interconnected to the main tank supply and to limit loss, I throw a shovel ful of cement powder into it occasionally. This finds it's way into the cracks and swells and dries and is progressively sealing the leaks up. Same principle as the Barrs.
    Overseas they recommend this, Radweld and a couple of others all which seem to do the job.

    Alan S
    'tis true, mine had a fairly decent leak it lost over 2 litres sitting out at UQ for the day. Topped it up for the journey home and it again dropped a couple of litres at home - literally streaming out, used the Bars Leaks and was amazed to see after running the car for just over 10 minutes the leak stop. Topped up again and took her for a run and temp ran at a steady 90 degrees so no blockage to the radiator, I've been using the car daily since and not lost a drop.

    Mine had had the radiator repaired only a few weeks previous which included rodding the core so the whole sytem was clean and flowing, I imagine a partially blocked radiator may become more restricted by using Bars??

    I would only see this as a bandaid, the leak needs to be found and fixed properly but I am impressed with Bars and now keep a bottle in my tool kit for similar emergencies

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood
    'tis true, mine had a fairly decent leak it lost over 2 litres sitting out at UQ for the day. Topped it up for the journey home and it again dropped a couple of litres at home - literally streaming out, used the Bars Leaks and was amazed to see after running the car for just over 10 minutes the leak stop. Topped up again and took her for a run and temp ran at a steady 90 degrees so no blockage to the radiator, I've been using the car daily since and not lost a drop.

    Mine had had the radiator repaired only a few weeks previous which included rodding the core so the whole sytem was clean and flowing, I imagine a partially blocked radiator may become more restricted by using Bars??

    I would only see this as a bandaid, the leak needs to be found and fixed properly but I am impressed with Bars and now keep a bottle in my tool kit for similar emergencies


    SO to confirm BARS wil also do the job as a corrosion inhibitor ???


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    Quote Originally Posted by twm
    SO to confirm BARS wil also do the job as a corrosion inhibitor ???
    So they reckon, but I would tend to use it with an inhibitor rather than instead of.

    Barr's has the advantage of having "soluble oil" as one of its ingredients and this would tend to coat the internals which is part of any inhibitors job..

    Alan S
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood
    I imagine a partially blocked radiator may become more restricted by using Bars??
    Chris, I don't think so. It only collects and blocks gaps when it gets in contact with air.

    Incidentally, when I read that stuff about walnut shells, I also found a GM USA reference where they put some kind of rad sealer all their new cars with a certain engine known to get leaks, so I'd imagine it can't cause too many issues with other parts.

    Stuey


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    I used to use Bars Leak years ago, when I was a student in my old Mini Cooper S,
    which was good for radiator type leaks, but another good product, which I used to use, was called ChemiWeld, which was for things like leaking head Gaskets, which the Mini used to do on a regular basis. After putting ChemiWeld in , it would last for at least 6 months before requiring another bottle. Not sure what it is like with Alloy heads though!!.
    Terry

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    Quote Originally Posted by doggiedog
    I used to use Bars Leak years ago, when I was a student in my old Mini Cooper S,
    which was good for radiator type leaks, but another good product, which I used to use, was called ChemiWeld, which was for things like leaking head Gaskets, which the Mini used to do on a regular basis. After putting ChemiWeld in , it would last for at least 6 months before requiring another bottle. Not sure what it is like with Alloy heads though!!.
    Terry
    This is all amazing stuff. Reads like a Wheels magazine from about 1964!!! The word then was that Bars Leaks didn't block anything but leaks and although I've never used it, I have never heard complaints about its performance either.

    It'd be nice to have some long term reports on heater or radiator leaks sealed this way and left just with the additive as an alternative to replacing the heater element.

    I won't start on the (unnecessary) nature of the problem.......

    Cheers

    JohnW

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    John,


    Firstly welcome home. Good trip??

    I pricked my ears up a while back when someone on an overseas forum asked about a slight leak in a matrix and was told by a few (me included) that this was only a temporary fix and would probably lead to a premature end to his car.
    As you would be well aware (possibly more than us considering where you've just been) cars in the UK are treated more as a consumeable than an object of worship so general attitude is "well if it stuffs it, so what? A new matrix will cost "X" plus labour to fit an extra "XX" and for just over that I can buy another car."
    We then had a couple tell tales about using it 2 and 3 years prior with no further problems whilst another quotes from the instructions on a Valeo matrx he has just fitted and then to top it off, a guy whose son had a BX16V tells the story of them using it as an emergency measure when they were shifting (ie) Removalist van already gone, this guy has the key and a car full of personal effects and the BX has dumped the coolant in the driveway and was pouring out as fast as they were filling so in panic they dump a bottle or two in and take off and I'm sure he said 85K miles later, still no leak and no overheating.
    Several then chimed in with similar stories as well as claiming that with alloy engines and more refined cooling systems, that today's sealants are a far cry from those of the FJ - EH era and then when I mentioned it to my son, he was the first to agree with the logic as he had ended up with a matrix with the ends off only a few weeks earlier and this sounded like a very logical idea to be able to get a fairly well sealed system given the designs he saw.
    I've got it in both my cars now; one had a small leak near the water pump intake and the other gave a (coolant) smell from the matrix. Both are now cured of the coolant worries. The only strange thing that has happened is that on the 16V I now have the engine management light showing, so I have to extract the error codes in the next few days but I suspect a Lambda sensor is rattling around and causing this, but I'll check to be sure. Apart from this, I've done several thousand klms since putting it in and all is well.


    Alan S
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    John,


    Firstly welcome home. Good trip??

    I pricked my ears up a while back when someone on an overseas forum asked about a slight leak in a matrix and was told by a few (me included) that this was only a temporary fix and would probably lead to a premature end to his car.
    As you would be well aware (possibly more than us considering where you've just been) cars in the UK are treated more as a consumeable than an object of worship so general attitude is "well if it stuffs it, so what? A new matrix will cost "X" plus labour to fit an extra "XX" and for just over that I can buy another car."
    We then had a couple tell tales about using it 2 and 3 years prior with no further problems whilst another quotes from the instructions on a Valeo matrx he has just fitted and then to top it off, a guy whose son had a BX16V tells the story of them using it as an emergency measure when they were shifting (ie) Removalist van already gone, this guy has the key and a car full of personal effects and the BX has dumped the coolant in the driveway and was pouring out as fast as they were filling so in panic they dump a bottle or two in and take off and I'm sure he said 85K miles later, still no leak and no overheating.
    Several then chimed in with similar stories as well as claiming that with alloy engines and more refined cooling systems, that today's sealants are a far cry from those of the FJ - EH era and then when I mentioned it to my son, he was the first to agree with the logic as he had ended up with a matrix with the ends off only a few weeks earlier and this sounded like a very logical idea to be able to get a fairly well sealed system given the designs he saw.
    I've got it in both my cars now; one had a small leak near the water pump intake and the other gave a (coolant) smell from the matrix. Both are now cured of the coolant worries. The only strange thing that has happened is that on the 16V I now have the engine management light showing, so I have to extract the error codes in the next few days but I suspect a Lambda sensor is rattling around and causing this, but I'll check to be sure. Apart from this, I've done several thousand klms since putting it in and all is well.


    Alan S
    Thanks Alan - wonderful trip, to keep it short!!! Goodwood Festival of Speed was part, and I thought I'd died and gone to heaven for three days running.

    The Bars Leaks story is really interesting I reckon - Valeo obviously recognise they can't make these devices properly, which I guess we'd noticed! Like me, you'd also recognise that coolant senses holes that water wouldn't notice - it slowly comes through a copper head gasket for example! Thanks for the information. The first hint of an interior smell and it's in, that's for sure!!

    Cheers

    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    So they reckon, but I would tend to use it with an inhibitor rather than instead of.

    Barr's has the advantage of having "soluble oil" as one of its ingredients and this would tend to coat the internals which is part of any inhibitors job..

    Alan S
    Hi Alan

    Well I did the Bars Leak thing and I must agree with you 100%, my slight coolant loss has dissappeared and the temp is just fine. The water has an oilyness to it as expected which is good for the water pump etc. Heater works just fine so no blockages as expected. Yep its a great product. I still think I will have to check the hose connections but at least its ok at the moment. IT also mentions that the treatment should be repeated every 6 months.


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    Quote Originally Posted by twm
    Hi Alan

    Well I did the Bars Leak thing and I must agree with you 100%, my slight coolant loss has dissappeared and the temp is just fine. The water has an oilyness to it as expected which is good for the water pump etc. Heater works just fine so no blockages as expected. Yep its a great product. I still think I will have to check the hose connections but at least its ok at the moment. IT also mentions that the treatment should be repeated every 6 months.
    All very interesting! I'd be pleased to hear a long term report in, say 6-12 months, and I imagine a few others would too.

    Hope it works wonderfully for you!

    Cheers

    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW
    All very interesting! I'd be pleased to hear a long term report in, say 6-12 months, and I imagine a few others would too.

    Hope it works wonderfully for you!

    Cheers

    JohnW
    John,

    If you look on the Andyspares site you'll find a few or alternatively ask the question there; these are the kinds of responses you'll get as per my posting above.

    We then had a couple tell tales about using it 2 and 3 years prior with no further problems whilst another quotes from the instructions on a Valeo matrx he has just fitted and then to top it off, a guy whose son had a BX16V tells the story of them using it as an emergency measure when they were shifting (ie) Removalist van already gone, this guy has the key and a car full of personal effects and the BX has dumped the coolant in the driveway and was pouring out as fast as they were filling so in panic they dump a bottle or two in and take off and I'm sure he said 85K miles later, still no leak and no overheating.
    They have the corrosion problems over there from what I can see due to them either not doing routine maintenance coolant changes or by simply using tap water as a result it gets used more often over there (a legacy of used cars being too cheap; replace car rather than maintain it) but this is offset by the 100MPH Motorways which test out the cooling efficiency on a fairly regular basis.

    Alan S
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW
    All very interesting! I'd be pleased to hear a long term report in, say 6-12 months, and I imagine a few others would too.

    Hope it works wonderfully for you!

    Cheers

    JohnW
    John

    Yes there is a real Yes/No opinion about Bars Leak, allways has been, but as you say time will tell. If I have to pull out the heater core I am sure you all will hear about it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by twm
    John

    Yes there is a real Yes/No opinion about Bars Leak, allways has been, but as you say time will tell. If I have to pull out the heater core I am sure you all will hear about it.
    Terry,

    You are so right. I'd also be interested to hear how often you decide to chuck another load into the cooling system.

    More in 2006/7 no doubt!

    Cheers

    JohnW

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    John,

    If this stuff only crystalises upon contact with air, is there any reason that it should, apart from after a coolant change and flushing?

    From what I've heard overseas, the answer is no. It has to be remembered that these days a lot of components involved in these systems are either plastics or other synthetics so this stuff is dissolved within the system just as a lubricant/sealant and the major component is soluble oil that has been used in cars systems for donkeys years.
    Nobody was more sceptical than I was, but I have yet to hear of anyone over there who has used it long term having anything but praise for it, so I had to admit that on the evidence available I had to accept it as gospel.
    Even if just one person had said it was a problem, I possibly would have accepted it, but the only ones with reservations were the ones who hadn't used it, so what does that tell you?

    Alan S
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    John,

    If this stuff only crystalises upon contact with air, is there any reason that it should, apart from after a coolant change and flushing?

    From what I've heard overseas, the answer is no. It has to be remembered that these days a lot of components involved in these systems are either plastics or other synthetics so this stuff is dissolved within the system just as a lubricant/sealant and the major component is soluble oil that has been used in cars systems for donkeys years.
    Nobody was more sceptical than I was, but I have yet to hear of anyone over there who has used it long term having anything but praise for it, so I had to admit that on the evidence available I had to accept it as gospel.
    Even if just one person had said it was a problem, I possibly would have accepted it, but the only ones with reservations were the ones who hadn't used it, so what does that tell you?

    Alan S
    Hi Alan,

    I agree with that all. Interesting isn't it? How do you reckon you'd decide when to add a new dose, or would you just do it when changing coolant at the usual interval?

    cheers

    JohnW

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    I found after doing a coolant change that I experienced a slight leak on the fitting above the pump on the BX and began to get a tell tale smell of coolant inside the car on the Xantia, so I did both.
    Chris didn't have much choice (refer above pic at FCD at UQ) and he also had fresh coolant. I could imagine the potential for problems if old, contaminated or dirty coolant was in the system and then these types of things were just simply added.
    The old story of following instructions to lessen any potential risks.


    Alan S
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    Well, I've just added about 100ml of coolant this weekend, so I'll add some Bars Leaks this following weekend and see what happens. Sure beats my #2 job on the list (after the steering rack boots) of removing the heater matrix. Although I was sort of looking forward to it, as I love dispelling 'big job' myths and intended to take photos...

    Cheers

    Stuey


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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW
    Hi Alan,

    I agree with that all. Interesting isn't it? How do you reckon you'd decide when to add a new dose, or would you just do it when changing coolant at the usual interval?

    cheers

    JohnW
    RTFM

    The bottle says every 6 months so probably not a bad idea to drain refill and add bi annually anyway, I mean at 10bux a bottle

    PS still no coolant loss all OK


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