Oil for slugomatic gearboxs
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  1. #1
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Default Oil for slugomatic gearboxs

    Alan,

    I've just read your thread in the tips section. You say the BX should use DII, not Dexron III. I'm using Dexron III in the Xantia as I've heard I was told it's a direct replacement for Dexron II...

    The slugomatic in it works perfectly. Should I be trying to find Dexron II ... I was under the impresion it no longer exists and Dexron III has replaced it.

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    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  2. #2
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Alan,

    I've just read your thread in the tips section. You say the BX should use DII, not Dexron III. I'm using Dexron III in the Xantia as I've heard I was told it's a direct replacement for Dexron II...

    The slugomatic in it works perfectly. Should I be trying to find Dexron II ... I was under the impresion it no longer exists and Dexron III has replaced it.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    I have the proper ZF service manual and it actually specifies an Esso product.
    The gearbox I wrote about also seemed to be working OK but you ought to feel the diference once this stuff goes in.
    It's a bit hard for me to do a direct comparison as I also did a swag of other work too, but as you and I both know, there's a lot of guys whacking Dex3 into all kinds of strange things and the guy at the oil place reckons they're chalk and cheese. Whilst it might seem to be working perfectly, my guy reckons it will be grinding the guts out of it.
    He wasn't out to take me to the cleaners either as he even sold me the ATF at trade price which to me was a show of good faith.
    I may be able to send you the URL for the ZF box. It;'s the one I had to get downloaded a few weeks back by someone else due to me being on a slooooow dial up system.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    A very timely thread. I was just about to do an oil change on my Xantia. I have purchased Dexron III, after being told it was a replacement for Total ATX (specified in the Xantia manual). I'll do some more homework before proceeding.

    Edit:
    it appears ATX is Dexron II.
    http://www.total-lubricants.co.yu/pdf/CitroenTotal.pdf
    Last edited by PeterT; 2nd July 2005 at 01:44 AM.

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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    Penrite still do a DII.....Back of just about every DIII bottle will say that DIII is a replacement for DII and original Dexron...Which does kindaa makeee u wonder...Why still produce DII line (ie Penrite)...surely theyy aint putn DIII into DII just for the conouseurs.....Alan might be onto something here....I ll have to check it with our penrite "lady"


    cheers



    dino

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! doggiedog's Avatar
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    If you look at BPs site and look for Xantia lubricants, they specify Dextron111,
    but if you go to Mobils site they specify their ATF220, which is Dextron11D,
    which rings a bell, cos older Fords used a different ATF, from memory.
    Although if the Xantia is a V6, it states it is filled for life, and to use manufactures part number Part No. PR 9736.22.

    http://www.mobil.com/Australia-Engli...il_ATF_220.asp

  6. #6
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I could stand corrected on this, but in conversation, (the balance of which consisted of local Politics, the weather, why I own Citroens, business in general and the overall state of the nation, hence the vague comments) he made mention of the "base" of these fluids and I'm almost positive he said the base was Ethylene Glycol. When asked to elaborate, he described it as "glycol with a pile of various additives in it."
    If it was this he was talking about, which as I say, I'm almost certain he was, how scarey is that if we have people professionals and otherwise, filling gearboxes with this and I wonder how many are aware of this?
    More importantly, if I'm proven correct and I have no doubt that I am as regards manufacturers recomendations, how many BX/Xantia and XM boxes are running round with it in and how many have been taken out as a result of it?
    The mind boggles.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  7. #7
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggiedog
    If you look at BPs site and look for Xantia lubricants, they specify Dextron111,
    but if you go to Mobils site they specify their ATF220, which is Dextron11D,
    which rings a bell, cos older Fords used a different ATF, from memory.
    Although if the Xantia is a V6, it states it is filled for life, and to use manufactures part number Part No. PR 9736.22.

    http://www.mobil.com/Australia-Engli...il_ATF_220.asp

    From the Citroen Tech training manual.

    "II - OIL GRADE PAGE 20"

    From Page 20

    OIL GRADE
    Exclusively: ESSO LT 71 141



    So that's it straight from the horses mouth.
    It seems that either the D 2 is the equal of this LT 171 141 or is as close as is possible.
    If there are any comparison charts, I would say that should confirm it.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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  9. #9
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Thanks for that. Are there any comparison sheets around between this stuff and Dex 3?

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! sdabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    More importantly, if I'm proven correct and I have no doubt that I am as regards manufacturers recomendations, how many BX/Xantia and XM boxes are running round with it in and how many have been taken out as a result of it?
    The mind boggles.


    Alan S
    From memory I have been using Dextron M in my XM, was told it is the replacement for Dextron II. On the back of the container it was recomended for SAABs and Alfas with ZF boxes. I assumed that this would also apply to the HP18 transmison in the XM.

    As you say it would be amazing if all those dead XM boxes were fron using Dex III instead of II

    regards
    sean
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  11. #11
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdabel
    From memory I have been using Dextron M in my XM, was told it is the replacement for Dextron II. On the back of the container it was recomended for SAABs and Alfas with ZF boxes. I assumed that this would also apply to the HP18 transmison in the XM.

    As you say it would be amazing if all those dead XM boxes were fron using Dex III instead of II

    regards
    sean
    I had heard the same info as Sean, form my fatehr-in-law. He had to get Dex-M for the auto in his M**na, and his son sold him the Dex-M, and as he runs a Coventry Auto store in Brisbane, and has some knowledge of oils I guessed this may have been pretty close. Guess it's who you speak to. I found when trying to get P/S fluid for the S**b that the best people to talk to were the smaller oil manufacturers, like Prolube. They seemed to be less biased in what they reccomended.
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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I'm still confused and I understand the difference between the Ford C4 and the GM applications. I'm going to ask Continental Cars what they use.

    '92 205 Mi16
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  13. #13
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Peter,

    I would suggest trying possibly ATECO as this info

    Oil for slugomatic gearboxs

    came from official Citroen documents from overseas and unfortunately, some of these guys out here seem oblivious to what's happening over there as we have discovered when it came to the injectors getting destroyed by water leaking from connections from winscreen washers whilst they were still blaming contaminated fuel.
    To elaborate, the boxes using Dex3 are doing so because they were designed to run on it. The Dex3 was apparently originally designed for heavy industrial applications such as coal cutters etc and adapted to automotive use due to its high friction enhancement.
    It was Ethylene Glycol based ( I know; I have trouble getting my head around tha too) but with a lot of additives mixed with it to make it act as a combined friction enhancer/lubricant whereas the D2 is oil based so there is a really big difference.
    Oil companies may also be a better source of information although we have already proven that BP has got it wrong. Unfortunately out here, too many have just gone gung ho with the "Dex3 is the latest version of the Dexron range" theory which is totally incorrect. It's comparing oil with water.
    The guy I spoke to had a chart he simply looked up so I would suggest other oil companies would have the same.


    Alan S

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Here we go ...

    citroen xantia

    Citroen BX

    Citroen CX

    Citroen XM

    Is this the same as linked above ? Interestingly the CX uses Dexron III, however the BX, Xantia and XM do NOT. Shell ATF IID for them... Bloody hell, now I'm going to have to buy a CX to use up the Dexron III in my shed (and buy some ATF IID).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  15. #15
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    That backs up what my fellow said; the BX, Xantia and XM can all use synthetic as an option so that confirms the "oil" base theory.
    Scarey what's been going on though hey?

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  16. #16
    UFO
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    Hmmm, very interesting. Now where does that put you if you have a transmission that is full of D3 and should have D2?
    Craig K
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  17. #17
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO
    Hmmm, very interesting. Now where does that put you if you have a transmission that is full of D3 and should have D2?
    I could say 'Up $hit Creek' but the other option might be to repeat after me;

    "Our Father, which art in Heaven, hallowed be thy......................amen"

    I'd suggest a fluid change, a short time later, another, followed by a third; possibly at 4 - 6 week intervals. By that time my guess is that most should be drained out or at worst diluted enough for it to no longer be a problem.
    The difference in the performance of the transmission after just one change in my case was quite dramatic.

    When "Dexron3" was put into Mobils search function, up came "Mobilfluid 424" which gave a run down of fluid characteristics.
    At the bottom amongst its application came this little gem
    # Suitable for commercial transmission applications requiring Type A (Suffix A), Dexron and Type F fluids. Do not use in passenger car automatic transmissions


    So obviously, those transmissions that specify it have been specially designed to cope with it. I can't see any other explanation as to its use in car transmissions otherwise.





    Alan S
    Last edited by Alan S; 3rd July 2005 at 09:30 AM. Reason: additional info.
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! sdabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO
    Hmmm, very interesting. Now where does that put you if you have a transmission that is full of D3 and should have D2?
    This is of course a hypothetical question Craig ?
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  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! sdabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY
    I had heard the same info as Sean, form my fatehr-in-law. He had to get Dex-M for the auto in his M**na, and his son sold him the Dex-M, and as he runs a Coventry Auto store in Brisbane, and has some knowledge of oils I guessed this may have been pretty close. Guess it's who you speak to. I found when trying to get P/S fluid for the S**b that the best people to talk to were the smaller oil manufacturers, like Prolube. They seemed to be less biased in what they reccomended.
    Got me wondering about this Dex-M now..my research team (google) didn't find anything on it.

    Lots of people (mostly called Brad, Randy or Chuck) on forums stating that DexIII is definatly compatible with DexII...



    regards
    sean
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  20. #20
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdabel
    Got me wondering about this Dex-M now..my research team (google) didn't find anything on it.

    Lots of people (mostly called Brad, Randy or Chuck) on forums stating that DexIII is definatly compatible with DexII...



    regards
    sean

    This is possibly due to us talking modern technology whilst they still talk about Tractor technology, 7 litre V8s, possum stew, tar & feathers, moonshine and marrying their cousins at 13.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  21. #21
    farmerdave
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggiedog
    If you look at BPs site and look for Xantia lubricants, they specify Dextron111,
    but if you go to Mobils site they specify their ATF220, which is Dextron11D,
    which rings a bell, cos older Fords used a different ATF, from memory.
    Although if the Xantia is a V6, it states it is filled for life, and to use manufactures part number Part No. PR 9736.22.

    http://www.mobil.com/Australia-Engli...il_ATF_220.asp
    Which is all very interesting, because mobil ATF220 is one of the specified fluids for ZF bus transmissions- and was listed by the Regie as an alternative to the old renaultmatic versions 1 and 2. It is a low friction modifier oil.
    The comment about a glycol base has me even more concerned- glycol is very good at dissolving certain types of friction plate.
    I guess this means I'm up s***t creek with the 405.

    Farmerdave

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I remembered I had a 1L bottle of Castrol atf out in the shed today, that I'd bought for the Patrol power steering. It's called (and I'll quote from the bottle):


    "TRANSMAX M (formerly Castrol TQ Dexron D22798) is a mineral based ATF suitable for most transmissions, except where Ford M2C-33 fuild or other specialist fluids are recommended."

    and it goes on,

    "Formulated to the superseded Dexron II specification."

    "Suitable for a wide range of European automatic transmissions, e.g. Merc.............and Peugeot."

    Surely that has to be the stuff!!!

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  23. #23
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Sounds about right to me.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    Peter/Alan - Transmax M is what i put in Sarahs 306 a few months back and its auto has been great since, finger crossed.



    Dave


  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! sdabel's Avatar
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    This is the stuff I have being putting into the XM........
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