Things I would like to thank the CX designers for
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  1. #1
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Default Things I would like to thank the CX designers for

    Lets see...

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    --Using different sized driveshaft nuts .... yeah thanks... Just 'cos years back I purchased the right sized socket with a 3/4" breakers bar.... It was a great idea to make the LHS driveshaft on my car 32mm... Especially seeing as some b@stard has stolen or lost my 32mm socket (no doubt it'll turn up as soon as the cars together).
    --Changing something so I can no longer withdraw the LHS driveshaft as the joint will not fit past the anti-roll bar .... I finally realised that ... after 1/2hours of frustration at which point the boot came off the joint leaving the other half behind. To put it back together I'll have to remove both drop links and lift the anti-roll bar verticle.

    Now I used to think access to the daravi cable off the diff was, er, 'cozy' --read bloody tight. I admire whoever thought of the idea of fitting a full sized cable splitter down there so the speedo and daravi could one off the one gearbox output. Not only that, it was a brillaint idea on the series II to put a cover over it ... when you remove the cover there's a bloody great ABS unit ensuring you can't see the bolt to remove the cable splitter, let alone touch it. Yeah iit's great the way the chassis longeron and steering rack make this bolt you can't see or touch so difficult to get a spanner on. Luckily after considerable time spent trying in vain to get a spanner on it I realised it was loose Finger tight infact Obviously I'm not the only person that's enjoyed it's location.

    - I just love the way they have changed the exhaust manifold. remove 3easily accessible nuts from the manifold -to- downpipe connection. Instead lets bolt the turbo input and wastegate input on with difficult to access nut that have special heads. The likelyhood of me finding a socket that'll fit those nuts is extremelly remote to say the least.... Hang on, luckily they put another exhaust joiner a little further down the exhaust. Great idea as I can still get the motor out by unbolting this. Thanks for putting the top bolt in a place at the top of the poipe where no spanner or socket could possibly get to it, not unless it bends arounds corners and has the socket wall thickness of about 2hair widths.

    Yep I've had a fun afternoon

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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  2. #2
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    ..........................but there's some great deals going on Kia Rio's at present they tell me.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Well the motors out and sitting on the floor of my shed.

    I must say I seriously admire who designed that engine unit. Yes it fits in ..... just .... I was starting to wonder if they they hung the block up from the roof and actually built the motor with it in place Certainly it's a 'snug' fit.

    2 solid hours it took me to extract the motor. let me explain, yesterday afternoon I removed everything execept the engine mounts thinking I'd whip the motor itself out this morning (ie: 10minutes to undo the bolts, then lift her up & out).

    Without and engine crane it would still be in there, I had to keep wheeling into different positions so the lift point was pulling from a differnt angle and all sorts of fun things. 2solid hours of wiggling, prying and swearing to get it to fit out the hole. I wonder how many people have removed the turbo/wastgate and manifold to get it out (there's a horrible thought). The trick is to do this:

    -push the motor and gearbox right over into the drivers corner on an angle to dis-engage the diff from under the chassis crossmember
    -once it's clear swing the whole unit over till the gearbox is sitting in the front left corner above the battery.
    -Deliberatly jamn the intermediate drivershaft bearing carrier (that's cast into the alloy sump) under the chassis member and gently lift the motor. This will tilt the motor allowing the wastgate mechanism to clear the front of the car
    -Once the wastgate manifold joiners are clear pry the sump forward so it's no longer wedged under the crossmember.

    I could probably do another in a fraction of the time now I know the trick to getting the b@stard out, but I figure the less practice at this I have the better

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Shane, here is me expecting more hagiology of der citron and lo, the dirty end of the spanner. Great to finally see some balance in your reporting.

    ed ge

  5. #5
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Edgey, mate you don't read much that I write in this section do you

    Infact it reads like just about every job I do on the car(s).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Arh, you'd be right about that Shane, I've not much need for tech advice on Citroens. Puegeots yes, Chamberland tractors yes, Tecumsah motors yes, but have yet to rise to Citroen.

    cheers ed ge

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    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    hmm, never done a cx motor, but some cars can be a pain, i agree............makes you wonder how they built the bloody things.............

    i sometimes find myself imagineing them in the factory, holding the motor 5 stories above the body then droping it so it can squeeze into place, then a few hoses and bolts and on goes the bonnet then out the door and on the truck to the dealers.......

  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 123abc
    hmm, never done a cx motor, but some cars can be a pain, i agree............makes you wonder how they built the bloody things.............

    i sometimes find myself imagineing them in the factory, holding the motor 5 stories above the body then droping it so it can squeeze into place, then a few hoses and bolts and on goes the bonnet then out the door and on the truck to the dealers....... :
    I have the video here of the CX factory.... Would you believe they build the mechanicals on a subframe and lower the body on top

    Maybe it'd be simpler to lift the body off

    Seriously though, it's not impossible, I'm just bloody glad I got the thing out without the headache of trying to remove the exhaust manifold and turbo/wastgate (envision special nuts, sheered of studs, sourcing of gaskets not in this country etc, etc.... ).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  9. #9
    UFO
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    I have the video here of the CX factory.... Would you believe they build the mechanicals on a subframe and lower the body on top

    Maybe it'd be simpler to lift the body off

    Seriously though, it's not impossible, I'm just bloody glad I got the thing out without the headache of trying to remove the exhaust manifold and turbo/wastgate (envision special nuts, sheered of studs, sourcing of gaskets not in this country etc, etc.... ).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Shane, sometimes I wish we had a webcam in your shed, but then others I am glad we don't. Funny enough, most cars built in the last 30 years have the body dropped onto the subframe. The XM factory vid shows the same. Any other shots of seen of other brand factories are too. Let's face it, they're all built to be sold, wear out and be replaced - not driven and repaired for years and years like car nuts of all types do.

    Just think yourself lucky it wasn't an XM mate.

    BTW - they start building CXs by hanging the heater core from a string and then construct the car around it.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  10. #10
    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Well done shane! I remember what it was like getting the motor put of my scrap cx turbo ( the one all your injection spares came from!!) I was lucky, I have a forklift for these type of jobs, so as you are working with an overhead crane, I think that is an even better achievement!!! john s
    Last edited by smiffy1071; 27th June 2005 at 08:40 AM.
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  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Fordman's Avatar
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    Default DFA - The Answer!!

    My son went thru uni in Mechanical Engineering a few years ago.

    One day he came home and said "Dad, I have learnt the answer to all your problems!" (I was an automotive mechanic/engineer).

    "Its called DFA - Design For Assembly - we learnt about it today".

    This "DFA" is a philosophy adopted by manufacturers where they design for ease of assembly (in production) and most economical manufacture - little or no regard is made for someone to pull it apart or repair it in the future. Hence we get fuel pumps riveted together, door trim retainers which break when you remove them, cars which are built around the heater core, etc, etc.

    I knew thats what they did - but I didnt know they actually gave it a name!!!
    But it does explain it all - the answer to the origin of the universe (well, cars anyway).

    The worst "bragging" I have seen was a promo for the VN Commodore in 1988 when I was in the fleet management game - they showed a film of the dashboard being completely assembled on a bench (including air cond, heater, wiring, instruments - the lot) then being lowered into the car through the windscreen opening before they put the windscreen in - this was accompanied by "look how clever we are" audio. I believe this is common practice to make assembly quicker.

    And you wonder why a heater core is a prick of a thing to remove these days?

    Cheers.

  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    slowly progressing .... I was hoping to have the motor out and back in within a couple of days (Yes Alan, stop laughing, get off the ground and wipe your eyes ... You shouldn't laugh that hard, it's bad for you health).

    Everything is nice 'n' clean, I have the starter and alternator in bits. The alternator was on it's last legs and I'll rebuild it. The starter looks grotty as hell, but is perfect.

    The engine mount was stuffed (I'll fix that). The wiring across the back of the motor is terrible. I think I'll be making up some wiring harnesses while it's out. I sheered one of the studs off on the exhaust joiner. Lots of work to be done. All the stuff with no paint and corrosion will need to be wire brushed and painted ...... Oh yeah the reason I pulled the b@stard apart again. I haven't even seperated the gearbox yet. There's probably a week or 2 of work there (for my limited spare time) without even installing the new clutch.

    The driveshafts, the intermediate bearing has a little wear in it, and some of the boots are cracked. I've grabbed some new boots from the local driveshaft place (about 18bux each for a kit with fasteners and grease). Much better than the $60+each wanted from Mr Citroen. I still have to knock the shafts apart, clean and re-assemble them with new boots though.

    I look forward to a car with good engine mounts, no slipping clutch and reliable/replaced wiring and connectors

    I think my pushbike will be getting a lot of use over the next few weeks.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Shit.

    I will never curse my Fuego again...ever

    Engine out = <1 hour

    Heater core removal = <10 minutes (it's located in the external plenum chamber)

    By mid eighties standards the Fuego is like a 120Y to work on...

  14. #14
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    BTW - they start building CXs by hanging the heater core from a string and then construct the car around it.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
    Craig I think that goes for all voitures Francais isnt it.....

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    1000+ Posts cruiserman's Avatar
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    When I dropped the motors on the 405's I undid the strut towers, the steering and the exhaust, unplugged any wires that were attached to the body, pipework etc hooked up the crane (car suspended high on stands on about a 30degree angle. undid the engine mounts and lowered the whole subframe onto the crane legs where I wheeled it out through the drivers side wheel arch, bugger trying to lift it out through the top.
    Neil
    '94 405 SRBT

    '82 CX 2400 Pallas 5spd

    '77 CX 2400 Pallas 4spd manual Import

    '76 CX Super

    '05 WL Statesman

    '92 HZJ80 Landcruiser

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    AHAAA!!! so thats how you work on a proper, real , non-poogoo car!!! - Chris

    ps, couldn't help myself shane.
    ... ptui!

  17. #17
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    This here is the problem.

    Normally the motor takes a bit of fidling, but comes out easily enough. Look how much wider this is with the manifolds in place

    MistaRenault, I'll time you next time you do rear camseal (is that the one that was a b@stard on the Fuego ... Can't remember ).

    Seriously though, most east/west modern cars will be every bit as bad as the CX I imagine.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Things I would like to thank the CX designers for-outfinally1.jpg   Things I would like to thank the CX designers for-stuck4.jpg   Things I would like to thank the CX designers for-onstands.jpg  
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! briz205's Avatar
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    Shane,

    That end photo is the best I have seen in a long time! Looks like Back to Future!

    Nick
    Auckland NZ -
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    2001 Renault Clio Sport RS, Silver.

    Brisbane Aus -
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    MistaRenault, I'll time you next time you do rear camseal (is that the one that was a b@stard on the Fuego ... Can't remember ).
    Hmmm nice try...

    The only oil leak my car has ever suffered was a weep from the rear camshaft seal (powersteering model)

    If memory serves its was as easy as 1 2 3.

    1 remove belt

    2 remove big nut from pulley and remove pulley

    3 remove seal

    It took about 25 minutes at the most...

    I imagine that like any seal, it could be the seal itself thats hard to remove.

    The seal in my car luckily came out reasonably easy with my friend the big screwdriver...

    The biggest fubar on the 2.0L Fuego IMHO is the lower crossmember that should be about an inch further back to allow free access to all the Sump Bolts and the fact that the A/C belt sits behind the Cam Belt and means you have to remove the cam belt to replace the AC Drive belt...

    The second problem isn't too much of an issue as the cam belt is not a huge job on the Fuego...

    BTW the Renault 19 would have to be one of the biggest pain in the arse cars to work on. Especially when you consider how basic they are...
    Last edited by mistareno; 28th June 2005 at 03:59 PM.

  20. #20
    UFO
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    Yeah but in the long run, you're still only driving a Renault!
    Craig K
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO
    Yeah but in the long run, you're still only driving a Renault!
    As opposed to a Peugeot...

    It should also be noted that the operative words in your sentence are 'long run'...something a Citwrong will never see...

    I'll head back to my side of the pit now....

  22. #22
    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Got the hand bags out again I see?? and there was me thinking Renault was an anagram of Toilet!!! john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

  23. #23
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    I re-assembled the alternator last night after desoldering all the rectrifier diodes and testing them (all tested good), testing the windings back to earth and each other (tested good), re-soldering the rectifier and installing new brushes into the regulator (I'm NEVER doing that again unless I have to, what a b@stard of a job).

    I thought I better bench test it before it's re-installed. Hooked the earth upto the frame of the alternator back to a battery with a jumper lead. Hooked the live terminal of the battery down the to '+' output of the rectifier. Hooked the spade terminal (exciter) on the regulator and touched it to the '+' of the battery. Spinning the alternator with my drill shows ........ nothing I'm sure I've got it hooked up wrong somehow. Maybe I need the idiot light in the exicter wire. I'll try that tonight.

    Anyone else here ever tried to bench test an alternator

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  24. #24
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I spent a little time today. Normally to seperate the gearbox you undo about 1/2dozen bolts, whip the camshaft carrier bearing off and drop them apart.

    Now whip the camshaft bearing off ..... Yeah..... It appears some b@stard has welded it to the camshaft. I told this is quite common with cars in the UK (certainly I've never struck this before ).

    Thank god for MIG welders and drop saws.... It finally let go with an almighty bang.

    Now to make up a press tool to remove the driveshaft intermediate bearing.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Things I would like to thank the CX designers for-campuller.jpg   Things I would like to thank the CX designers for-cambearing.jpg  
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  25. #25
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Spent another hours or so on the car last night.

    I've given up on trying to remove the driveshaft intermediate bearing. I'll either cut it off with an angle grinder, or whip upto my uncles and have him heat it with an oxy to remove. I simply can't be bothered making up a big puller to remove this bearing.

    Onto the radiator fans, one of them has a noisy bearing. On pulling them apart I found 4 massive brushes that looked brand new, the commentator looks brand new ... I damaged the soft front alloy housing getting the bearing out ... (grrrr). The front bearing is just dry, the rest of the fan is as good as the day it left the factory (the rear bearing being a brass bush).

    Jobs for today:

    lunch hour... Order in/buy:

    --1 x spigot bearing
    --1 x camshaft carrier bearing
    --1 x driveshaft intermediate bearing
    --2 x front fan bearings

    There going to love me up at the bearing place.... I can already hear them "bloody metric bearings ... what the hell are these out of " .... Oh a Sightrone ..... that explains it, grumble ... mummble....groan..... Seriously though, the people at these places are usually really helpful.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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