Running in a Xsara VTS
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  1. #1
    Member ry205's Avatar
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    Default Running in a Xsara VTS

    Hi,

    I just bought a Xsara VTS !!
    A mate was telling me that as well as watching your max rpm's for the first 3000k's you shouldn't drop your revs too low.
    I know about the max rpms, but should i try to keep above a certain rpm as well?
    Are there any other precautions i should take?

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  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I'd just drive it hard, lots of accelleration/decelleration (but not thrash it) for the first thousand kms to get the piston/ring seal as good as possible. Apparantly the worst thing you can do for a new motor is drive it really gently.

    seeya
    Shane L.
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts n b j's Avatar
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    I dunno if driving a brand new engine gently is going to do it any harm..??

    Certainly don't thrash it for the first 1,000 k's or more. But Nothing wrong with driving the car hard and reving it, provided you don't go above 3 or 4k rpm max until it's run in.

    As for low revs, low revs don't put stress on the engine. If they are very very low (ie almost stalling) it could put stress on the fywheel and clutch, but it wouldn't hurt the engine. But why would you have revs that low anyway
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    Fellow Frogger! mattg's Avatar
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    In my research on this topic it is crucial to put heavy loads on your engine as soon as Posible. Engine braking is the most effective way to load up your engine. The crucial thing is to change the oil using mineral oil after 150km and again at 1000km with the synthectic stuff. Synthetic oil is tooooo slipery to use when running in your new engine. The rings slip insted of bedding in. Contact offsure oil and get the Elf/Total as this will be the same as what is in your car from the factory. Replace the filters as well. 1500 km on the first batch of oil is horendas when you think about all the fress filing of metal that are running around your motor.

    There is a realy good site on running in a engine I'll let you know when I find it.

    Got to love the VTS don't you.

    They just stick like glue.

    Enjoy your new ride.
    Cheers

    Matt

  5. #5
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Congrats on the new car. Very nice!

    Yeah, just don't lug labour the engine too much. Not too much time held at particular revs. If you have to do Motorway driving, then change gears every few minutes to vary the revs.

    Generally, you can rev it out right away, once it has warmed up, of course.

    Good tip on the oil there, as well. A mineral or semi-synth is a good idea initially. Then move to a full synthetic. The VTS runs 10W-40 which is a bit rare, Elf has a product in this range, I believe.
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    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    In regards to running in, my C4 owners handbook says the following:

    During the first 1,500km (1,000 miles), following the simple advice given below will optimise the performance, driving pleasure and long-term reliability of your new vehicle.

    - Pull away and accerlerate gently, driving at moderate road speeds and avoid high engine speeds (if your vehicle has a rev counter, limit engine speeds to 2/3 of the maxiumum).

    - Do not drive for long periods at high road speeds.

    - Do not tow a trailer during the first 1,000kms (600 to 700 miles)

    - Avoid harsh braking.

    From around 1,000km (700 miles) for petrol engines or 1,500 km (1,000 miles) for diesel engines, the road speed and engine revs may gradually increase, slowly building up to the maximum permitted. It should be noted that an engine will not deliver its maximum performance until a running-in period of at least 3,000kms (2,000 miles) for petrol engines or 5,000kms (3,000 miles) for diesel engines has been completed.

    When your vehicle has covered between 1,500 and 2,500kms (1,000 and 1,500 miles), a first inspection carried out by the CITROEN network is compulsory in order for you benefit from the terms of the guarantee.

    The change of engine oil, formerly carried out at this service visit is now no longer necessary.

    NOTE: CHECK THE OIL LEVEL FREQUENTLY DURING THE RUNNING-IN PERIOD. OIL CONSUMPTION COULD BE HIGH AT THIS TIME!

    ....there you go, just wrote this all from my handbook
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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Uga - Apparently from what a few of us have read lately its bad to baby a new engine like that. Best to try and bed the rings in asap. Drive the car straight to a nice quiet motorway and give its a few good runs in second gear to fairly high revs and then let it engine brake back down to low revs again and repeat the process a number of times.

    Someone link the website with all the proof on it.

    Dave


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    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    So you're saying Citroen don't know how to run-in their own engines?? Since that's their recommended method of running it in.

    I reckon they should do what Volkswagen does and run them in at the factory!
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  9. #9
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Here's the article were all thinking of.

    A well thought out eye opener isn't it !!

    http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uga Boga
    So you're saying Citroen don't know how to run-in their own engines?? Since that's their recommended method of running it in.
    After reading the article you might change your mind. Just think about how many Bx tri122's and Tzi's use oil (just about every single one) - they all have glazed bores.

    Dave


  11. #11
    1000+ Posts n b j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uga Boga
    So you're saying Citroen don't know how to run-in their own engines?? Since that's their recommended method of running it in.

    I reckon they should do what Volkswagen does and run them in at the factory!
    Porsche also do this. Infact thay put the engines on a bench (before they put them in the car) and run them for several thosand Kilometers at varying revs.

    Then when the cars are built they roll them off the production line, a Porsche engineer/test driver gets in the car and takes the car for a 30km 'circuit' around the streets of stutgart and for a portion of the autobahn before returning it to the porsche factory for the final stage of the production line, which is reseting the odometer to 0. The cars have special number plates which make them excempt from ALL road rules in Stuttgart and they (provided they are doing the 30km test run) can do whatever they want. A new car rolls of the line (standard 911 and boxters) every 5 mins and does this circuit. It is amazing to see, and it's more amazing to see just how hard these test drivers Thrash the crap out of the brand new porsches. Most new porshces (made after 1998) experience the hardest driving of their lives before they are delivered to the showroom. There's no need to run in a new porsche engine.

    OK, sorry Back on topic!
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  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave
    After reading the article you might change your mind. Just think about how many Bx tri122's and Tzi's use oil (just about every single one) - they all have glazed bores.

    Dave
    Well think about this, my old CX has done about 136,000 MILES. Yet it doesn't use a drip of oil between oil changes ..... Infact I'd be bloody stunned if the enigine in it's EVER been apart.

    Now even if grandpa simpson had bough this car new and drove it gently. Think about it 1st brrrrrrr, 2nd brrrrr, 3rd brrrr .... hang on there's a hill, even though were idling along at 2500rpm and grandpa is using a light foot suddenly the motors running full boost !!!!! YYYeeaaahhhhh !!! full ring sealing mode !!!

    Infact I think it would take a dedicated driver that never let a turbo charged car get "on boost" to wreck the piston ring seating when new by not allowing lots of pressure be applied to the rings.

    I remember my father running the new rings in on my old CX2400 about 15years ago (I have no idea why they were changed ). This involved winding her out to the redline through the gears around the buninyong highway

    BTW: My old CX has CNAN plates which means it was a Citroen owned demonstrator when new .... Now demonstration models always get treated really gently ....

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    PS: Anyone ever noticed rental cars always run mmmmmuuuuuccchhhhh better than privately owned cars.... Guess why
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  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! mattg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Here's the article were all thinking of.

    A well thought out eye opener isn't it !!

    http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

    seeya,
    Shane L.

    Thanks shane. I'd just found it and was about to post it. I usded this method after rebuilting my Ricer VR4 Galant with Forged Pistons and the works "mmmm Turbo Power" It worked a treat.

    A good example of babying an engine is my mates Tractor on his farm. They rebuilt the diesel motor and it was hay season so its first job was just slashing and raking hay. That motor was always using oil and just wasnít quite right. This is in comparison to the next motor they rebuilt that went straight out to rip up a new paddock that had been used for Pasture for many years, very hard work. That Motor never uses a drop of oil and purrs like a kitten. Drive it hard and change the oil regularly. Oil is CHEAP compared to an Engine.

    This is one of those things that make you go hmmmmmm.

    Cheers
    MattG
    2002 Xsara VTS

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    I skimmed through the article, yet i still find it hard to believe that the manufacturer and dealer can be wrong on this.
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  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Maybe they want the engines to die prematurely so we buy new cars

    Dave


  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! mattg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uga Boga
    I skimmed through the article, yet i still find it hard to believe that the manufacturer and dealer can be wrong on this.
    From the Site:


    Yeah - But ...
    the owner's manual says to break it in easy ...

    Notice that this technique isn't "beating" on the engine, but rather taking a purposeful, methodical approach to sealing the rings. The logic to this method is sound. However, some will have a hard time with this approach, since it seems to "go against the grain".

    The argument for an easy break-in is usually: "that's what the manual says" ....

    Or more specifically: "there are tight parts in the engine and you might do damage or even seize it if you run it hard."

    Consider this:
    Due to the vastly improved metal casting and machining technologies which are now used, tight parts in new engines are not normal. A manufacturing mistake causing a tight clearance is an extremely rare occurrence these days. But, if there is something wrong with the engine clearances from the factory, no amount of gentle running will fix the problem.

    The real reason ???
    So why do all the owner's manuals say to take it easy for the first
    thousand miles ???

    This is a good question ...

    Q: What is the most common cause of engine problems ???
    A: Failure to:
    Warm the engine up completely before running it hard !!!

    Q: What is the second most common cause of engine problems ???
    A: An easy break in !!!

    Because, when the rings don't seal well, the blow-by gasses contaminate the oil with acids and other harmful combustion by-products !!

    Ironically, an "easy break in" is not at all what it seems. By trying to "protect" the engine, the exact opposite happens, as leaky rings continue to contaminate your engine oil for the rest of the life of your engine !!

    It seems to make sense.
    Cheers
    MattG
    2002 Xsara VTS

  17. #17
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    I'm surprised the PSA engines aren't run in on the bench. I imagine they are, but not to the same extent as Porsche... but even FPV and HSV run in their hand built engines on the bench before assembly. I imagine they still want you to be careful, as there's more to the car than just the engine...

    My Focus had no run in instructions at all. Similar type of engine to the XU10J4RS.
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  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! mattg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    I'm surprised the PSA engines aren't run in on the bench. I imagine they are, but not to the same extent as Porsche... but even FPV and HSV run in their hand built engines on the bench before assembly. I imagine they still want you to be careful, as there's more to the car than just the engine...

    My Focus had no run in instructions at all. Similar type of engine to the XU10J4RS.
    Yes you would think so but they still have Mineral oil in them when you buy one.

    Cheers
    MattG
    2002 Xsara VTS

  19. #19
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattg
    Yes you would think so but they still have Mineral oil in them when you buy one.

    Cheers
    There's a lot of talk of first fill oil, although, i have a sneaking suspicion that Australian dealer's drain and refill with the oil of their choice as part of the delivery service. I'd like to hear a definitive answer on first fill oils from an Australian operation.

    I know it's prevalent OS.
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  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! mattg's Avatar
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    I asked this question when I was looking at buying a Brand New Xsara and the Service manager at Zagame (I think) told me that it was Total Oil in it when they are delivered dut each dealer may be different.

    Cheers

    Matt
    MattG
    2002 Xsara VTS

  21. #21
    Member Nil Time's Avatar
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    Icon6 Running in

    Greetings;

    When I picked the C2, I asked about running it in...and the Service Manager advised to just drive it as normal...and in stop/start traffic, rather than on the highway. Which is the same running in advice that was given to me when I was running in my motorcycle.

    The bike now has over 70000 km on it, and has not leaked a drop of oil, so I guess that the "drive normally - run it in hard" school of thought works pretty well.

    Cheers
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  22. #22
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uga Boga
    I skimmed through the article, yet i still find it hard to believe that the manufacturer and dealer can be wrong on this.
    Uga,
    I think you will find most of us thought that way too. Take a few hours and read all that's at the site, going in with an open mind really helps. Forget everything you think you know about engines and read what this guy says. I found it amazingky insightful and if you stop to ponder what he has written alot of it makes sense.
    I think of all the engines I have pulled down over the years, and several of them have had glazed bores to varying degrees, I'd like to bet the worse ones were babied.

    ON running in oils...I have a good friend in Brisbane who runs a machine shop, his advice was tif possible to use a non-friction modified oil, which will further aid bedding in.
    Last edited by HONG KONG PUGGY; 25th June 2005 at 12:27 AM.
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  23. #23
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    I don't doubt the benefits of first fill, and I know that most (if not all) manufacturers run a first fill from the factory, but whether Australian dealers refill the cars with this oil or a different one as part of their delivery service is another matter entirely. It's just my pessimism coming out as I've never heard of it from an actual living and breathing NEW car mechanic...

    I could just ask the Service Manager next time I buy a new car... I expect the response to be, "*blink * blink"... here's a free bottle of car vacuum product".
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    Member ry205's Avatar
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    thanks everyone for the responses.

    GTI124, i'll enquire what oil was in my car when i take it in to get the oil replaced (vsoon)

    just a quick q, what's the optimum running temp for a xsara?

  25. #25
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ry205
    thanks everyone for the responses.

    GTI124, i'll enquire what oil was in my car when i take it in to get the oil replaced (vsoon)

    just a quick q, what's the optimum running temp for a xsara?
    The engine runs quite hot. Can be between 90 and 110. I found high quality coolants and full synthetics stabilised the temperature on this car.
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