LHM substitute
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Thread: LHM substitute

  1. #1
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    LHM substitute

    Hey Alan,
    What do you know about this blue oil? is it the stuff being used in aircraft?
    http://people.a2000.nl/rveltk/renard.html

    (still no e-mail form you)

    Cheers
    Chris

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    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  2. #2
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Chris,

    There has been a lot of debate in times gone by on overseas boards regarding this blue oil.
    If Ron Veltkamp (Ron CTTF) reads this he will doubtless respond & bring us up to speed on it but basically from what I understand is that the blue "Renard" oil is in fact the aircraft hydraulic fluid that they speak about but with a difference; ther has been additives added to it for lubrication purposes.
    From reports I've read, it is thinner than LHM/LHM+ and has the advantage of smoother ride, faster rising and overall better performance. They reckon that Citroen won't acknowledge its existence & will in fact reject warranty claims if it is found in the system of a new car. By the same token, Citroen have not given any valid reason for this & this in turn has been interpreted as Citroen protecting their long standing relationship with Total.
    In light of BP's latest act with the price of LHM here in Australia coupled with the later models not using LHM. it would be nice if Citroen, who I don't believe hold any allegiances to BP or any other oil company except for the possible exception of Castrol, would clarify the position on this & various other fluids so that we can all stop guessing what we can or can't use in our systems. The circumstances are being created whereby somebody such as Renard could be placed in a position whereby almost by default they could be placed in a position of having a monopoly and one press release from Citroen could prevent this.
    If the oil companies could be believed that the volume of this LHM is so small as to not be a really viable proposition to produce, then I can't see that they could hurt their multi-national mates all that hard if they simply lifted the lid on what things were all about; but we all know that oil companies will place profits before ethics any day, so even one dollar not in their pockets could cause a lot of consternation.

    Alan S

    BTW, tried to resend that e-mail before. Let me know if I win, if not we'd better check that I'm sending it to the right place
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  3. #3
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    Hi Guys,

    May be useless info. but have you tried Castrol? I thought I'd read somewhere that they make Citroen fluid, but it may be the 'other one' to that you guys want.

    I found their tech. department exceptional - I needed a highly specialised grease for old camera lens repair (another hobby of mine) so emailed them. They contacted me three more times to make sure they had the right specs then I got a tub sent to me free of charge to try. The military sales dept. then phoned and advised they were sending the stuff they sell to the Oz military for their binocs, and it was excellent stuff. Even sent a spec. sheet. Worth a try, at the link below, unless you know they can't help.

    http://www.castrol.com.au/castrol_00...dback_set.html

    Cheers

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  4. #4
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Alan,
    Thanks once again for a very considered reply. I guess I'm looking at a situation where if the cost of LHM has gone through the roof, is there now a viable alternative? It would seem those using the "Renard" product in Europe are giving it the thumbs up. Would it be viable to import "Renard" will we then be up against protective tariffs and duty?
    You know thinking about the response you have had from BP (i.e. The price of LHM has gone un-noticed and has been brought inline with a long overdue price rise???) Do you think that Citroen has made a significant impact in Australia over the last few years so as to be noticed by the greedy bastard vultures. This would not only be in sales of current model vehicles but the recognition of the D model world wide, third in car of the century and international design award against all-comers 747 and space shuttle included. Maybe we should have kept our heads down very much looking forward to the response of Simon Crean keep us posted on that one.

    By the way your e-mail arrived twice this morning, first attempt must have bounced off thousands of computers before finding me. makes for very entertaining reading.
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  5. #5
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Stuey,

    yeh, castrol used to be the cheapest, about $100 bucks for a 20litre drum, and you could also buy 5litre bottles of LHM from them as well.

    However being the greedy bastard oil company they are they decided the was a better way to sell LHM about half way through last year. They now sell it only in 500ml bottles @ about $16 a bottle. Obviously they can go stick it where the sun doesn't shine.... Bloody ridiculous. Changed from $100 for 20litres to $640 for 20litres in flash little bottles....

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  6. #6
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Hi all,

    I have been asked by an oil blender to ask if anyone can get the specs (viscosity etc) of LHM or the aircraft hydraulic fluid reputedly used as a substitute.
    If the info can be forthcoming, an attempt will be made to make up a cheaper substitute to break the obvious price fixing that is presently happening out here in Oz.
    Any help most appreciated.

    Alan S

    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  7. #7
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    I have just been talking with Ian Reddiex of Euroserve, at the moment he is not too concerned having just bought in a 44gal. drum of LHM with no price increase (from BP). He has not been advised of an imminent increase? But here's the crunch did any of you know that all new Citroens starting with the C5 will not use LHM. The C5 has a sealed system that requires no maintenance for 200,000klm. It uses an oil not unlike brake fluid in that it is highly corrosive to paintwork etc. If the oil companies were looking at forward projected sales of LHM and saw that eventually only die hard nutters were going to be using it do you think they might charge a premium? you bet they would.. all the more reason to find an alternative. I don't believe there will be a problem short term say over the next 5 years but LHM will become as it is priced like liquid gold.

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi,

    well get this, from the very elegant simple solution with the old D's ie: 1pump powers everything. To the 'new' C5 ie: the way forward for Citroen.

    'D' service points:

    -engine oil
    -hydraulic fluid
    -washer fluid
    -battery water
    -gearbox oil.

    1 pump, and 5 levels to check.

    The way forward for Citroen the 'C5'.

    -brake fluid resevoir
    -hydraulic suspension resevoir
    -power steering resevoir
    -engine oil
    -washers
    -battery
    -gearbox oil
    -coolant.

    You see the way forward and simplifing maintanance appears to be 3 pumps to do the same as before ie: vacuum pump (brakes), power steering pump, and hydraulic pump. Wonder if there's 3 different types of fluid as well

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  9. #9
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    According to my contact, BP has taken over Castrol (which is old news) and the only manufacturer of LHM in Australia is BP.
    All these other companies who handle or supply it are "badge engineering" just as Ford "badge engineers" Mazda. The upshot of all this is that we don't stand a cat in hell's chance of getting these corporste bushrangers to reduce their price because regardless of whatever any supplier says he can sell it to us for, this "highly ethical" (I think that was how they described themselves to us) bunch can have the final say on supply price.
    If however we can get another source of supply then it's a case of not just telling them where to stick it but also how far.
    I have indicated to him that there should be a market in one - 20 & 200 litre drums. I have also pointed him toward Renard in Holland in the hope that perhaps we can speed up the whole process by him simply manufacturing under licence.
    I'll keep you all posted.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  10. #10
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Alan,

    I'm not sure if you've scrolled right down to the information you require on this page:

    http://www.compufort.com/users/cando/tony.html

    Scroll down to the large big table on the page and you will find the specs/viscosity @ temp ranges for the following fluids:

    LHM+
    Pentosin CHF 7.1
    Pentosin CHF 11S
    ATF+3
    Texaco MIL-H-5606(G)
    ARAL Vitamol ZH-M

    This should be the information any blender would require ??

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  11. #11
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Thanks mate,

    I've forwarded it on. Now we'll see how fair dinkum he is. If this one doesn't perform then at least we know what they want, what we can supply & how much we are prepared to pay to anybody who wants to do the right thing.
    If this guy of mine is prepared to give it a go - OK, but if he stuffs around and/or starts getting greedy, we'll keep looking 'till we find one who will do the right thing.
    I know there are others around who might be interested but we can only take them one at a time or else we'll fire all our shots at once & could end up giving them the whip handle again.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  12. #12
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Hey, If we all start using blue oil does that mean I change my name to BlueBlood hmm, its got nice a ring to it

    How right you are Shane one step forward and ten steps back, I'd like to know the cost of the service at 200,000 k's on the C5, if it costs over $1000 for little more than a service and replacement of a few minor parts on a Pug as posted in the Peugeot forum. Problem is todays cars in general are beyond the average DIY home mechanic. I knew that when I bought the XM but I'm certainly making myself familiar with the smaller jobs I can tackle on it. (and saving for ones I won't be able to handle).

    Go get'em Alan, it would be great to come up with a cost effective alterative and thumb your nose at the big boys.

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Chris,

    if you can work on a 'D' you can work on an XM. Give it a bash, I'm willing to bet you could do anything to it as well as most mechanics could. Only as you know the hydraulics of your Cit's well your one step ahead already.

    I really can't think of any car I wouldn't have a bash at working on myself (yep I'm willing to screw anyones car up )

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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