Ds23ie BW Auto
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Thread: Ds23ie BW Auto

  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default Ds23ie BW Auto

    Greetings DS boffins

    I have an unusal problem with the DS23 and wonder if anyone has encountered this/ or preferably, has a solution

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    Car starts and runs fine when ambient temp is cool (say 22degrees), and will continue running ad infinitum. However when the engine is turned off, it will not re-start (cranks but not firing)
    If the ambient temp is, say, 30 degrees, engine cranks but will not fire from initial start
    So far I have checked fuel pump, replaced filter, replaced spark plugs, replaced coil. Swapped distributor cap and rotor. Checked wiring around the 5 relays on the battery frame and there were some very dodgy connections, now fixed (I hope)
    Seems to have good spark and fuel pressure
    Car has a 123 ignition and I am wondering if it fails when hot?
    Or ignition switch?

    Any ideas would be gratefully received, thanks

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! marc61's Avatar
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    Are the HT leads old? I’ve had that problem with old HT leads failing, park up when hot and it won’t restart unless left to cool down for an hour. Fitted new leads and problem disappeared.
    Cheers, Marc.

    1987 CX GTi T2 Maikonics
    1972 SM 2.7 carb
    1972 DS21 EFI

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc61 View Post
    Are the HT leads old? Iíve had that problem with old HT leads failing, park up when hot and it wonít restart unless left to cool down for an hour. Fitted new leads and problem disappeared.
    Thanks for that advice

    I have changed the HT leads and the coil but problem persists

    I am wondering iif the 123 distributor is going intermittent. Has anyone had such problems with the 123 distributor?

    Thanks

  4. #4
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    throw a points dizzie back in there and see if the issue goes away ..... heat sensitive issues always make me look at the nearest electronic item
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  5. #5
    Tadpole
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    I don't have experience with the DS23ie specifically, but would check / replace / temporarily bypass the fuel pump relay if it has one.
    If that doesn't work I would be confirming 100% or otherwise the presence of both fuel pressure and spark when it is in a fault state (ie cranking but not starting).
    Heat soak is not an uncommon cause of electrical / electronic faults (ie parts become hotter after a hot engine is stopped than they are while it's running), but that doesn't explain it not firing from cold on a day of 30+ degree weather.
    The other piece of 'logic' to apply is considering what kind of fault state can allow the car to still run fine, but prevent it from firing when starting. Fuel pump relay fits this criteria, as normally once the relay engages it will stay engaged, but oxidised terminals may cause it to fail to initially engage under certain circumstances.
    Electronic ignition systems can fail intermittently under seemingly random circumstances (I know that from experience...), however if consistent spark is present on cranking, but still no start, it's 'likely' that the ignition system is not the cause of the fault.
    Good luck with it!

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    Warren,

    Do you have a timing light with an inductive pickup that clips over the HT lead of number 1 for checking ignition timing?

    If so, then clip it over the HT lead going from the coil to the distributor and see if you get nice healthy even sequence of flashes from the timing light while trying to start the engine. Hopefully this will tell you if the ignition system is OK or not.

    I just used that technique to tell me the ignition system on my SM was stopping it from starting. Hopefully the D-Jet injection system is OK.

    Cheers, Ken
    Last edited by Ken W; 14th February 2020 at 02:39 PM.

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger!
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    It is possible the thermotime switch has failed causing the cold start injector to operate even with a warm engine. The result would be to much fuel during cranking and possible flooding of the engine.

    The fuel pump relay is controlled by the ECU and is not of the latching or tachometric variety. The pump should run continuously during cranking, if it doesn't then something is wrong with the EFI wiring / ECU. You can bypass the relay and force the pump to run.

  8. #8
    Tadpole
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    Thank you all for the suggestions. The forensics continue...
    Spark confirmed as per Ken W's method (very clever). Spark at coil/ distributor lead and at spark plug leads
    Hot wired fuel pump which runs fine and continuously
    Disconnected cold start injector- no effect
    Fuel pressure found at the fuel hose to cold start injector, but reading is off the scale of my humble non injection fuel pressure gauge. Better unit is on order
    Checked pulse output from 123 distributor with timing light at the 2 leads coming from the distributor base-
    Car is cranking but not running at all now, so at least its consistent...
    Injectors seem to be working. I get 20 'clicks' when I rotate the throttle position switch
    Swapped over the ECU and barometer to spares, but again no change
    I guess the next stages ae to remove the injector gallery and check that fuel is coming out of the injectors, (which were replaced only a few years ago). And check the fuel pressure regulator. These seem to be unobtainable from what I can see? Unless someone has a source for a replacement?
    Thank again for all the input

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger!
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    If you've got fuel pressure, spark and the injectors are clicking when you rotate the throttle then the basics are working. When cranking there should be 12v at pin 18 of the ecu conector. If you have 3 grey Bosch relays, it comes form the one nearest the bulkhead and if you have 2 grey Bosch relays it comes from a shunt to the starter switch. This signal tells the ECU you're trying to start the engine and to fire the injectors. It will start without it but will be very hard.

    The other important voltages to have are a constant 12V at pin 16 and 24. I cant remember which is which but one is power for the ECU and the other is power for the injectors. It is supplied by terminal 87 (white wire) of the relay nearest the radiator.

    Watch out for randomly swapping the ECU and MAP. They are somewhat paired and a mismatch of part numbers can cause the engine to behave oddly.

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! marc61's Avatar
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    Not sure if you’ve removed plugs and checked/replaced them? Probably worth doing that before attempting to take the injectors out as they’re best left alone unless it’s essential. The plugs soon get wet with fuel after a few attempts at starting, which makes ignition difficult.

    If it’s not starting hot or cold now, then it might just be a rubber hose in the air system that’s slipped off or leaking - check the connection on the MAP sensor on the bulkhead and all hoses connected to the inlet manifold.

    Failing that it might be the injector wiring harness that’s messing you about if it’s old - take it off the car by undoing the white connector near the bulkhead and the connectors at each injector, the distributor and temp sensors along the cylinder head and then check each wire for continuity with a meter.
    kenlin likes this.
    Cheers, Marc.

    1987 CX GTi T2 Maikonics
    1972 SM 2.7 carb
    1972 DS21 EFI

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