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Thread: Troubleshoot, D just stopped?

  1. #26
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Bugger. Good you had a look. Not sure why a sudden small head gasket leak would stop it dead though? Rough running and loss of power. it's all nice and clean otherwise....

    Good luck!!
    I'm with John, it should still run, even if roughly.

    I would make sure that the timing is still correct??

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    I would also examine the remains of that head bolt to determine why it failed.
    Regards Col

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  2. #27
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    I possibly haven't thought it through, but if the head gasket has failed, how is the coolant getting up there? Is it getting into the oil/ sump and then being pumped up?
    1968 DS21bvh Pallas in Gris Palladium

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  3. #28
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    Think I’d check for water above the pistons, might it be a cracked head rather than a head gasket?
    Cheers, Marc.

    1987 CX GTi T2 Maikonics
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  4. #29
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    Thanks for the input.
    The two things may or may not be connected.( Stopped running and discovery of broken bolt)
    And I would agree that it is too much of a coincidence, but I will consider it both ways.
    How fresh the coolant is would indicate very recent failure.
    So why on earth would a head bolt break?
    Last edited by Big Frog; 9th January 2020 at 08:41 AM.

  5. #30
    Fellow Frogger! marc61's Avatar
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    I guess the most likely cause is that it was over tightened when the head was last taken off the engine and after many thermal cycles the head of the bolt has finally let go, or maybe it’s just a duff bolt.

    It’s really important that head bolts are tightened to the specified torque, but sometimes people don’t do that, or choose the wrong torque setting, or just do everything up damn tight! When I took the head off my DS last year some bolts were not very tight while others were, and after inspection it was obvious from the indentations on the aluminium that someone had previously done some of them up far too tight!

    It might be necessary to weld a nut on top of the bolt in order to undo it - a spare head bolt could then be fitted.
    Cheers, Marc.

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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Frog View Post
    Thanks for the input. The two things may or may not be connected.( Stopped running and discovery of broken bolt) And I would agree that it is too much of a coincidence, but I will consider it both ways. How fresh the coolant is would indicate very recent failure. So why on earth would a head bolt break?
    It's odd and what you show us seems almost too much to be a coincidence. If you didn't build the engine, or don't know who did, I'd be concerned enough to pull the head off to have a good look. If it isn't cracked - and that coolant does look like a recent and direct leak - then a new gasket and head bolts tightened correctly might be the quickest way to future reliability.

    I still don't see that the coolant is anything directly to cause it to stop. I don't think it has come through the oil pump.

    Good luck.
    JohnW

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  7. #32
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    Hi All
    I agree with the idea that the busted bolt and coolant leak should not have stopped the engine.
    In any case, because I have to get the remainder of the bolt out, the head will have to come off to attack what's left, hopefully there is something left above the deck to grab hold of.
    As noted above the engine was completely rebuilt, new pistons, sleeves, head all checked out about 5 years ago by cit specialist I trust.
    Will report back when I get it further to bits
    Steve
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  8. #33
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Does the motor have any compression .... Does it spin over on the starter like there is no sparkplugs in it ............
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  9. #34
    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    It had compression, after it got dropped back home I took the plugs out so there was less resistance, and cranked it reverse to get it into the garage.

  10. #35
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    Had a chance to do a little on the car today.
    Had a look into the cylinders thru spark plug hole with a cheap bore scope camera I have. It's only black and white but there appeared to be no coolant in cylinders.
    Had a good look at the broken bolt, it is about 80 mm long, there is about 360 degrees of thread left, so it broke at the end of thread closest to the head. Having a good look it would seem to have been broken for some time. The end with the break is quite worn from bouncing around on the other part of the bolt in the hole. And the washer has made a mark around the top of the bolt from likewise jiggling around and the bottom of the washer is quite polished from movement as well.
    The bolt hole has coolant in it.
    Not sure that this info helps at all in the diagnosis?
    Steve

  11. #36
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    Eek. I don't think that is what stopped it running though.

    Head off, whichever way you look at it. You can get left hand drill bits - a good way of making the hole for the Ezy-out or whatever. I imagine the bit of threaded stub still in the head might come out easily.

    I don't know the DS engine well enough to have any idea why there'd be coolant in the bolt hole.

    Good luck.
    JohnW

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  12. #37
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    It’s good news that there’s no water above pistons, but not sure I understand what you mean re bolt description. The head bolts are much longer than 80mm.

    Rather than take the head off immediately I think I’d drain the coolant, get the water out of the bolt hole and dry it, then try a replacement head bolt to see if the threads are ok in the block - they’re a standard M10 thread so any M10 bolt will do for an initial check. If ok then check the torque setting of each other head bolt. Then put the coolant back in, take the plugs out, spin the engine over for a while and watch to see if the coolant is still leaking into the head.
    Cheers, Marc.

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  13. #38
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    Hi Marc,
    Sorry about being unclear. The bolts are longer than 80mm, when they are in one piece, this bolt is snapped, the thread is still in the block and the portion with the bolt head is shown here in this photo.

    head bolt.jpg

    The close up of the end shows the smoothing from rattling around for a while, I think it would take a while for a snapped jagged bolt end to become smooth like this.

    I'm not sure I could work down the bolt hole in the head to remove the broken thread, would need very long left handed drill and easy out?

    Steve
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    Last edited by Big Frog; 14th January 2020 at 07:58 AM.

  14. #39
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    Ah I see what you mean now Steve. That’s bad luck!

    No option but to remove the head and unscrew the stud. The head is 90mm thick so if the broken bolt is 80mm long there ought to be 10mm sticking out of the block.

    Removing the head is straightforward DIY with a D - if you fancy having a go I’m sure there’s enough of us here who can advise.
    Cheers, Marc.

    1987 CX GTi T2 Maikonics
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  15. #40
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    I would suggest that the coolant has migrated via the head stud canal because the gasket has not had tension at this point.
    Travelled up the canal and found it’s exit at the top of the head into the tappet assembly.

    It’s the only reason I can come up with. I may be way off in my thinking. Anyone wish to comment???

    Cheers
    Andrew
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Frog View Post
    Hi Marc,
    Sorry about being unclear. The bolts are longer than 80mm, when they are in one piece, this bolt is snapped, the thread is still in the block and the portion with the bolt head is shown here in this photo.

    head bolt.jpg

    The close up of the end shows the smoothing from rattling around for a while, I think it would take a while for a snapped jagged bolt end to become smooth like this.

    I'm not sure I could work down the bolt hole in the head to remove the broken thread, would need very long left handed drill and easy out?

    Steve
    Interesting pattern!! Doesn't look as if it sheared when being tightened but failed in straight tension. Live and learn eh? Thanks for the photo.
    JohnW

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  17. #42
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    If the bolt has broken some time ago and the car was still used, it is almost certain the head is warped, so you might be up for a head thorough check at least.
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  18. #43
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    Hello, and to cheer yourself up, whilst the head is off, pull out the tappets and look for scuffing and pitting.

    Peter, the prophet of doom

  19. #44
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Yeah I agree, your going to have to whip that head off..... Once this is fixed, I'm almost certain your still going to have your original problem though ................................

    seeya
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