Need to bleed regulator on '60 French ID after 3 weeks.
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Thread: Need to bleed regulator on '60 French ID after 3 weeks.

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Need to bleed regulator on '60 French ID after 3 weeks.

    With the engine not running for a 3 week period, the ID won't rise after letting the engine run, unless I use the bleeding screw. It never really bothered me but now that the car has found an elderly "new" owner in the Western District of Victoria, it really needs to be fixed.
    This elderly gentleman (93) loves the car but he is unable to lean over to insert the spanner on the bleed screw just below the mechanical hydraulic pump.
    I've come to the conclusion that it is losing pressure in the system somewhere.
    This early model has the separate braking system and with no power steering it should make it easier to resolve this problem.
    But where do I start ?
    Michael

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    Quote Originally Posted by IDear View Post
    With the engine not running for a 3 week period, the ID won't rise after letting the engine run, unless I use the bleeding screw. It never really bothered me but now that the car has found an elderly "new" owner in the Western District of Victoria, it really needs to be fixed.
    This elderly gentleman (93) loves the car but he is unable to lean over to insert the spanner on the bleed screw just below the mechanical hydraulic pump.
    I've come to the conclusion that it is losing pressure in the system somewhere.
    This early model has the separate braking system and with no power steering it should make it easier to resolve this problem.
    But where do I start ?
    Michael
    Not only will the poor old bloke never be able to steer it because of its heavy steering he will never be able to stop it ..required pedal pressures are huge on the master cylinder cars.
    I cannot offer any solution to the problem except for 40+ year old memory of a master cylinder Heidelberg ID that could never keep a good pedal height for long. The brake pedal would go soft and spongy despite repeated bleeding. The master cylinder proper has an emergency "valve" that can route high ( pump ) pressure IF the master cylinder has excessive travel ( ie usually a leak ). I would have thought that a healthy valve in the accumulator would keep its sphere filled ( from memory it is only a spring loaded ball ) ... releasing pressure using the long 8mm bolt on the accumulator body just serves to unseat that ball.Do not remove the bolt .. just enough to unseat the valve and release stored pressure. After all these years maybe the ball and seat in the accumulator body are pitted or just full of detritus. The usual caveats apply...if it is still on LHS clean all parts with methylated spirit before reassembly....what about the feed pipe to the pump ... is it split so it could be it sucking air ??? Do you feel a pulse through the feed pipe ? If it is pulsing then it sounds to be getting a good belly full of fluid. These pumps are .. probably as you know .. a simple single piston that has a return spring to ensure return of the piston and full stroke..is the spring intact ?? I did once have a broken return spring ... half a century ago, and therefore without full stroke the car couldn't pressurise.

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    Good to hear back from somebody that has enjoyed these cars in the past.
    The hydraulic system is very quick to respond when undoing the bleed screw half a turn but I will check the condition of the ball.
    Having purchased the ID in Melbourne, the Citroen Service Centre had installed all LHM rubbers. I replaced these with the correct LHS rubber parts but I never replaced the LHM feed pipe. When opening the bonnet, the large feed pipe would always be wet. I should look at that.
    Yes, we have been spoiled with the luxury of power brakes and power steering and all the other mod cons. I drive a 1927 Crossley. The mechanical brakes and heavy steering are a far cry from the luxury of driving a 1960 Citroen ID. "I'll say no more".
    Thanks ........ Michael

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    Yes it’s interesting how people find non power steering so difficult. The CCOCA club is selling quite a few electric power steering units for tractions so as people get older they want to keep driving rather than sell their beloved car. Our Big 6 is mostly original except for having an alternator and the odd electric fan. I have survived so far with the distributor and points. The reason I stick as close to original as possible is that I love the car and if it goes too far away from this I might not love it anymore. I am nearly 68 so will I think the same when I'm 85 ??
    So I'm not knocking what people do.If it keeps a car on the road all the better.
    Someone in one of the car clubs sold his car because there was some air getting in around his feet in his late forties English car and he felt cold. Janet and I took the '54 Vauxhall Vagabond tourer to Trentham this morning and I didn't bother attaching the driver's side window. It was freezing weather. I had my hat, scarf, jacket, thermal underwear etc and was quite comfortable. It is raining and cold as I write this and I know I'm rambling on.
    It interests me as generally the bulk of people don't seem to find it fun to be a bit adventurous in an old car with all its foibles. Same as having old things in a home isn't something people want and so from when I started driving old cars,old motorbikes and loving anything old, back in the 60's when it was all at fever pitch it has now come to a point that power brakes, steering, air conditioning and so-on is a necessity or one is not living. The house needs to be slick and non cluttered and life - - the same.
    I accept all this as through the centuries its always been the old codgers saying - - - " it wasn't like this in the old days".
    It won't be long till cars will be electric and driving might not be much fun anymore
    ( maybe just for me) - - - - but yes, it will be easy, cosy, safe and warm.

    John
    Last edited by gilberthenry; 27th May 2019 at 11:13 AM.
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    Thank God for my Hydroen harrisson_citroen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilberthenry View Post
    It won't be long till cars will be electric and driving might not be much fun anymore ( maybe just for me ) - - - - but yes, it will be easy, cosy, safe and warm.

    John
    Somehow, I think the DS Pallas Automatique will be one of the few cars still great to drive even if electric. I reckon the quietness will really suit the car, akin to how the three speed auto really fits well with the smoothness of the drive the DS was meant to provide. I drove it this afternoon and was pondering this exact question.
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDear View Post
    Good to hear back from somebody that has enjoyed these cars in the past.
    The hydraulic system is very quick to respond when undoing the bleed screw half a turn but I will check the condition of the ball.
    Having purchased the ID in Melbourne, the Citroen Service Centre had installed all LHM rubbers. I replaced these with the correct LHS rubber parts but I never replaced the LHM feed pipe. When opening the bonnet, the large feed pipe would always be wet. I should look at that.
    Yes, we have been spoiled with the luxury of power brakes and power steering and all the other mod cons. I drive a 1927 Crossley. The mechanical brakes and heavy steering are a far cry from the luxury of driving a 1960 Citroen ID. "I'll say no more".
    Thanks ........ Michael
    You had to re-replace the LHM rubber with the correct LHS rubber? What in flying h*** were those hacks thinking? Yes- you definitely need to replace the feed pipe before it bursts. You might also need to go through and clean all of the hydraulics out to remove the gummy deposits left because of those morons.

    Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't cracking the bleed screw cause the suspension to drop like a stone? Or are you saying that the system responds once the screw is cinched up? You might be admitting air into the system by way of that faulty hose. Replace that, then see what happens.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDear View Post
    Good to hear back from somebody that has enjoyed these cars in the past.
    The hydraulic system is very quick to respond when undoing the bleed screw half a turn but I will check the condition of the ball.
    Having purchased the ID in Melbourne, the Citroen Service Centre had installed all LHM rubbers. I replaced these with the correct LHS rubber parts but I never replaced the LHM feed pipe. When opening the bonnet, the large feed pipe would always be wet. I should look at that.
    Yes, we have been spoiled with the luxury of power brakes and power steering and all the other mod cons. I drive a 1927 Crossley. The mechanical brakes and heavy steering are a far cry from the luxury of driving a 1960 Citroen ID. "I'll say no more".
    Thanks ........ Michael
    They disolve into a tar like muck. Remove them immediatly and just let it leak onto the ground in the meantime !!! Check they haven't put LHM spheres on it too ( They make a HUGE mess when the diaphragms dissolve into mush). Both of of the ID19's I have here have been contaminated by previous owners. The blue one was done by a specialist that must have topped up the reseviour with LHM :eek

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  8. #8
    UFO
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    LHS cars can and have been successfully converted to LHM but it requires changing every piece of rubber/seal in the hydraulic system, not just a few bits. LHS and LHM are mutually exclusive and the fluids and systems specified for either should not mix.
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    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  9. #9
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    LHS cars can and have been successfully converted to LHM but it requires changing every piece of rubber/seal in the hydraulic system, not just a few bits. LHS and LHM are mutually exclusive and the fluids and systems specified for either should not mix.
    Just to add to Craig's observation: there are certain seals - a limited few- which can be used in either system. Those are marked in white, rather than red (LHS) or green (LHM). Do not use the white seals except where indicated. If you want to do what Craig mentions, go to the website HD19. In French, but a great overview of the work needed to convert a DS19 to LHM.

    Edit: giving the website might be nice of me: http://www.hd19.net/accueil_evo.htm
    Last edited by Hotrodelectric; 27th May 2019 at 08:19 PM.
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    I had done a great deal of work on that French ID to bring it back to original. Not owning an LHM car, I only have LHS parts.
    It has a great engine and gearbox and runs very well in all ways. It's only downfall is the losing of pressure after approx. 3 weeks.
    Checking the valve and replacing the large feed pipe from the hydraulic tank are things to take care of.
    I'll pick up some hose that is compatible with brake fluid.
    When the (now) owner said he wanted to relive the fun of owning an ID19 that he purchased new in 1959 I told him that I had a near identical car. He had bid on a DSpecial at Shannons and I told him that the DSpecial was very different to the '59 ID.
    A modern car with short stroke engine and especially the gearbox that is great for city driving and a sporty feel but lacks that longlegged high fourth gear that sets the ID apart" .


    Yes, he loves the car! As I left he said, "if I hear of a good EType Jag for sale ..... let me know. Never should have sold that either, all those years ago".
    I wonder how I'd be at 93?
    Michael

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Just to add to Craig's observation: there are certain seals - a limited few- which can be used in either system. Those are marked in white, rather than red (LHS) or green (LHM). Do not use the white seals except where indicated. If you want to do what Craig mentions, go to the website HD19. In French, but a great overview of the work needed to convert a DS19 to LHM.

    Edit: giving the website might be nice of me: HD19 La passion CITROňN
    So this car is a real "hybrid" ... and a can of disaster liking worms. It sounds as though you really need to know which components are LHS compliant and which are LHM components.. and make a decision one way or the other. It sounds like the current mix will just keep manifesting itself as each successive component succumbs to the wrong chemical environment. At this point a short term offering....how is the superfine filter inside the reservoir tank ? It is a super fine nylon cylinder accessed through the TOP of the tank. When you replace the feed pipe it would be wise to remove end clean the big tank deep filter. It is simply removed with the spring wire clip that the plastic fitting on the feed pipe is attached to ... Now what to clean it with ??? Is it running LHS ?? a vegetable oil ?? Use metho .. if the system is using LHM ( mineral ) you will need to use petrol. Wash and rinse and air dry. After reading the car's recent history I suspect that filter will be a clogged black gunky mess.

    Is there a fluid that is compatible with BOTH systems and all the seals and diaphragms ??? At this point it is a half way bet...will expensive silicone work ??? I suspect not as it will just sprout even more leaks. Dish washing liquid ??? It will clean out both veg and mineral oils ??? but the dilution may cause corrosion because of the water ... just trying to do a bit of lateral thinking to ease the dilemma. You have personal experience of the Canola oil experiment. You couldn't make it any worse with a third fluid ??? I am thinking for a short period and remove and replace.
    Over to the brains trust.

  12. #12
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    Looking back, I can see where I have misled you fritzelhund. I said that the Citroen Service Centre had replaced all rubbers with LHM rubbers. What I should have said is that while servicing the ID, if any rubbers needed replacing; LHM ones were used. The car wasn't restored by them .... only serviced.
    Yes, I have dealt with the contamination of canola oil on other IDees and this is a disaster on a huge scale that is difficult to overcome unless handled in the way that Erik in Stawell is handling the restoration of his ID that was also plagued by canola. He is overcoming it by installing clean reconditioned parts.
    Fitting LHM rubbers on an LHS car doesn't contaminate the system. It's just that the boots etc won't last as long. I know of a '62 ID that has been running on brake fluid for the last 30 years. The person servicing it recently told me that he doesn't bother using LHS parts. "They just wear out sooner".
    I am very fortunate that this 1960 French ID has never been contaminated with canola.
    Ofcourse I check the filter in the tank. It is cleaned with metho and put back in just as other parts are cleaned with metho
    "A can of disaster liking worms" I don't think so.
    Last edited by IDear; 28th May 2019 at 12:30 PM.

  13. #13
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    Brake fluid is still a different kettle of fish from MINERAL oil.

    By rubbers ... what do you mean ... line seals ??? drip collecting boots ??? O rings ??? certainly not sphere diaphragms I hope.
    As stated above some of the line seals are compatible with both fluids.
    Contamination will always eventually graduate back to the reservoir...all the systems eventually drain back to the big tank. It may take years in slow flow items like height correctors leakage lines but it doesn't just disappear.
    I am still unsure as to what BLOOD this old ID is using ....

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