My new challenge - 1964 ID19F Safari
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Thread: My new challenge - 1964 ID19F Safari

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! bleudanube's Avatar
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    Default My new challenge - 1964 ID19F Safari

    Back with a vengeance... letís see what we can create out of this beauty:

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    yep, the buyer Tim and Michael were talking about in Timís DS BVH Sale blog is me! I was after another project, so, after having finished and sold my previous 1970 D Super and then strayed to a 1985 Porsche 911, I thought it is time for another Citroen! And instead of doing up another sedan I thought I might have a crack at a Break, or Safari as the wagon was known in Australia.
    Sorry Chris and SM Owners Group... the SM is just too small for me. At 6í9Ē it was just too cramped, hence the Safari - space Galore!

    it is a 1964 ID19F Break, with the two small dicky seats in the back, a foldable rear seat and single front seats. Interestingly the chassis number 3504584 points to a Familiale (the Safaris with a third, flexible seat row and the tank further back) but the tank location under the rear bench is definitely a Break - if anyone can make sense of that?
    The model appears to be a Luxe, but I will ďupgradeĒ it to a Confort model. Engine is correct and the colour used to be Brun Isard AC414 - probably the worst colour anyone could have picked: Poo Brown... sorry, but that will have to go, sorry originality...!

    as you can see from the (small and poor quality due to the upload size) photos, it is a pretty big job. Hopefully not too big. The chassis has some rust in the sills and roof rails, it hasnít run for a number of years, but the engine turns by hand and the car is straight. The LHS hydraulics will surely cause problems galore and there is plenty of crud and surface corrosion to battle.

    Having bought it from Michael Paas I was/am/will be able to gather most of the missing parts, but it will be a puzzle no doubt to restore it to its former glory. I am counting again on the help from fellow froggers. Will need the workshop manuals, advice whether to keep the LMS or change to LHM, where to get 2nd nose Safari parts and much much more.

    Anyway, I am excited to be back on Aussiefrogs and keep you updated on my next restoration - this one will take longer, but it will be an interesting project. If anyone has early Safari experience and lives near or in Melbourne, let me know. Love to catch up and compare notes!

    Sven

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! bleudanube's Avatar
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    Default

    973B227A-4D91-4F42-A7C0-5E389F5E2187.jpeg

    better quality? Uploaded some batch resizer app. - letís see whether they come up any better...

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Hi Sven

    Congratulations on the wonderful purchase. Your DSuper restoration was sensational so I am looking forward to the work on the lovely Safari.

    Kind regards Syd
    1974 Citroen D Special (Blanc Meije)
    1989 Citroen 2CV 6 Dolly (Plum & Custard)

    Previously owned Frenchies -
    1976 Citroen GS 1220
    1997 Peugeot 306 XSi
    1995 Citroen XM Series II V6 (Vert Vega)

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Looks like the tow job with Michael's Landrover County might be her last. Michael picked up one of his Rovers on the way back and it seems like the V8 engine was only running on 7. She has been a trusty beast. If anyone is looking for a County to do up Michael might be your man. - - idear on this site.
    Anyway it will be good to see this car up and running. Like me, Michael keeps all cars undercover so it has been well preserved.

    Good to see people interested in the earlier long stroke cars - - - they are wonderful machines.

    All the best, John

    D's - a point of view - - - Nov '94

    Is it the unique beauty, the absolute craziness, or just sheer enjoyment of a smooth ride that urges one into wanting to discover every facet of this intricate family of cars.

    Is it, when changing into fifth gear of a ' 74 DS23, feeling like you're on a runway, and forever believing,
    the wheels are about to --- lift off .

    Or having the satisfaction of the plush interior, comfort, and ride of a ' 71 DS21 Hydraulique on the highway,
    a gearchange so smooth that it is joy itself.

    An ID19 1961, the extra soft ride, the torque of the long stroke motor and the heavy flywheel that,
    when being wound out, is asking to be driven faster ----- ever faster.

    Or a classic ' 57 DS19 with its no fuss exterior and a strange hydraulic gear change that makes you realize that a "true" Citroen can't change any other way,
    and when, about to walk away, you are struck down by the sheer simplicity and beauty of a dashboard which would echo its way through an ever changing world and come to its final resting place in a long distant relative,
    the GS
    A 1974 DS23 Automatic Pallas making city driving - - - - sheer joy.

    Or the year 1967, when it all seemed to reach a peak.
    Chrome buttons and switches on the "slopy" dash which was to enjoy only one more year before
    "modernisation" definitely set in.
    Plush carpets, stainless steel kick plates and valences, leather and cloth which showed pride in workmanship,
    in a company which was about to conform slowly to the wants of an evermore changing society.

    Music on, and just -------- just thinking, one could drive, on and on -------- and on.

    Through the dazed eyes of an addict, John Paas.

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! bleudanube's Avatar
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    Ok gents, would anyone have access to the workshop manuals for the 2nd nose long stroke engines?

    Might also need a wiring diagram - did they ever exist for IDs or DS?

    First challenge this weekend will be to try and get the car running... let’s see how that will go...

    Sven

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Iím pretty sure that wiring diagrams for 6v cars are in volume 1 of the much later manual 814.


    Sent from my iPhone using aussiefrogs
    1968 DS21bvh Pallas in Gris Palladium

    Restoration blog: https://ds-restoration.blogspot.co.uk

  8. #8
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    1964 and 1965 are a black hole for Dee manuals. Once the short stroke engines came in they seemed to stop worrying about the long stroke engines. They released periodical updates for the parts catalogues 466 (DS19), 470 (ID19) and 479 (Break). My 479 contains updates to May 1965. But to my knowledge they released nothing to update the repair manuals for long stroke engines after the publication of 498 (the 1963 supplement for DS19 and ID19). All of these are available from Tony Jackson's repository.

    Roger
    GreenBlood likes this.

  9. #9
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilberthenry View Post
    Looks like the tow job with Michael's Landrover County might be her last. Michael picked up one of his Rovers on the way back and it seems like the V8 engine was only running on 7. She has been a trusty beast. If anyone is looking for a County to do up Michael might be your man. - - idear on this site.
    Anyway it will be good to see this car up and running. Like me, Michael keeps all cars undercover so it has been well preserved.

    Good to see people interested in the earlier long stroke cars - - - they are wonderful machines.

    All the best, John

    D's - a point of view - - - Nov '94

    Is it the unique beauty, the absolute craziness, or just sheer enjoyment of a smooth ride that urges one into wanting to discover every facet of this intricate family of cars.

    Is it, when changing into fifth gear of a ' 74 DS23, feeling like you're on a runway, and forever believing,
    the wheels are about to --- lift off .

    Or having the satisfaction of the plush interior, comfort, and ride of a ' 71 DS21 Hydraulique on the highway,
    a gearchange so smooth that it is joy itself.

    An ID19 1961, the extra soft ride, the torque of the long stroke motor and the heavy flywheel that,
    when being wound out, is asking to be driven faster ----- ever faster.

    Or a classic ' 57 DS19 with its no fuss exterior and a strange hydraulic gear change that makes you realize that a "true" Citroen can't change any other way,
    and when, about to walk away, you are struck down by the sheer simplicity and beauty of a dashboard which would echo its way through an ever changing world and come to its final resting place in a long distant relative,
    the GS
    A 1974 DS23 Automatic Pallas making city driving - - - - sheer joy.

    Or the year 1967, when it all seemed to reach a peak.
    Chrome buttons and switches on the "slopy" dash which was to enjoy only one more year before
    "modernisation" definitely set in.
    Plush carpets, stainless steel kick plates and valences, leather and cloth which showed pride in workmanship,
    in a company which was about to conform slowly to the wants of an evermore changing society.

    Music on, and just -------- just thinking, one could drive, on and on -------- and on.

    Through the dazed eyes of an addict, John Paas.
    These D's your selling ..... they just don't exist any longer to replace ..... Don't get rid of the county! the motor is easily replaced for next to nothing. I have a 3.9 sitting here that I only didn't use as I could see it had weepy welch plugs in a place that I couldn't get too!

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    Congratulations, Sven!

    That is a fabulous car and, as I've said, in my short ownership - several years - gave me a couple of my finest citro-motoring experiences. I did a few jobs, and have had the head off. The system was flushed and a few new correctors fitted, spheres done. But, yes, that was a fair number of years ago now. Lance Collins also 'serviced' the car which, if you know Lance, means that it was virtually given a minor mechanical restoration! The uprated DS19 engine specs are a joy. So here's my offer - come to Trentham next weekend (the date that's in your diary) and I will gift you a 1960s two part ID19 workshop manual, ID19F glovebox manual, and a DS19 parts book - same motor as yours. I shall bring them with me.

    I really like the Blue that it is painted. I will also demonstrate all the reasons why its a confort, not a luxe Or at least a hybrid as was known to occur.

    Give me a call if you accept the challenge.

    Tim
    Last edited by Middlemoon.1; 11th May 2019 at 04:11 PM.
    Current Garage:

    '07 C5 Wagon
    '57 DS19
    '51 11BL
    '55 Big 15
    '56 Bentley S1

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Le Parisian's Avatar
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    Looks like a good unmolested model its going to be "une belle voiture" just cant wait to see the results.........




    Quote Originally Posted by bleudanube View Post
    Ok gents, would anyone have access to the workshop manuals for the 2nd nose long stroke engines?

    Might also need a wiring diagram - did they ever exist for IDs or DS?

    First challenge this weekend will be to try and get the car running... let’s see how that will go...


    Sven
    Bounge likes this.

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
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    Hi Sven,
    Congratulations!
    It's great to have you back in the fold - and with a rare and very desirable early Safari! Well done!
    Are you coming to the Grand Display this year?
    Kind regards,
    Mark

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Dano's Avatar
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    I’ll be watching with great interest. I’ve always like the safari, there is just something about them that intrigues me.

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! deesse's Avatar
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    Congratulations Sven, looks like quite a project and I salute you for taking it on. Is it a BVH or manual car?
    I was think fondly of my ex safari today and how I used to carry canoes on the roof rack. Hope you keep the Porsche to satisfy the need for horse power.
    cheers Tony

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! bleudanube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ds21bvh View Post
    Hi Sven,
    Congratulations!
    It's great to have you back in the fold - and with a rare and very desirable early Safari! Well done!
    Are you coming to the Grand Display this year?
    Kind regards,
    Mark
    thanks Mark - it is nice to be back and I must admit that the Citroen community was partly the reasons to have another crack at a Citroen. Have been touring the Melbourne surrounds with the SM Owners group. A really lovely bunch of guys and ladies - genuine and knowledgeable. But, as the SM is just too tight a fit, voila: Safari is a cute alternative (even if underpowered). Yes Tony, will try and keep the Porsche for a bit (garage space might be come the issue)... so I can continue to join you guys on drives.
    gsowner84 likes this.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! bleudanube's Avatar
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    Yep, it is certainly a ‘project’ Tony... but: some success this weekend. After charging the battery I at least had lights, wipers and a horn! But no power to the engine. So I dismantled the solenoid on the positive battery terminal. Found a broken wire on the coil! Soldered it back on, cleaned it all up and was able to crank the engine over at least - a good start. Lots of small bits in that little gizmo
    3F13C4A4-DB22-424D-B8FF-0B712F9B3349.jpeg

    Next challenge: no fuel. Checked the tank - no rust inside. So put a few litres into the tank, but the pump didn’t pull up any fuel. Pulling it out revealed a fair bit of internal corrosion and bypassing valves. It is an Australian made pump... but cannot find a manufacturer logo. But the valves appear to be standard 19mm ones, so found a company in Brisbane - Classic Carbs who appear to sell them.
    28BA695B-695C-4ABD-A38E-B45BEC588414.jpeg

    Would anyone know what brand the pump is?
    703C84AD-1DE8-47F0-A004-5FA580A2658A.jpeg

    so, hopefully once I have the new valves the pump will pull up fuel. Then onto the spark and if all goes as planned the beast will fire up. Hopefully without too many leaks of LHS, coolant or oil.

    Couple of other questions for the brains trust:

    what is this? Looks like a pressure sensor on the cam chain cover? Standard? Bolt on aftermarket?
    8D11864B-38E0-4F8E-8F2B-93768C0F65D2.jpeg

    and then this bolt. It is plugging a hole in the head. It is located to the front of the heater hose exit point. What would normally connect there?
    97960270-9D12-4E7A-A8D9-5C6CAB0D7369.jpeg

    also re manual: found 814. Seems to have a bit of older model stuff in it as well.

    Sven

  17. #17
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    For this car, 814 is not your friend. It is for cars with short-stroke engines. Look up the manuals I recommended, at the place I recommended.

    Cheers,
    Roger

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    I can also bring a NOS pump of that type to Trentham. Have one on the shelf. But I suspect yours needs priming, or the line is sucking air, check connections,cos there was nothing wrong with it

    Tim


    Quote Originally Posted by bleudanube View Post
    Yep, it is certainly a Ďprojectí Tony... but: some success this weekend. After charging the battery I at least had lights, wipers and a horn! But no power to the engine. So I dismantled the solenoid on the positive battery terminal. Found a broken wire on the coil! Soldered it back on, cleaned it all up and was able to crank the engine over at least - a good start. Lots of small bits in that little gizmo
    3F13C4A4-DB22-424D-B8FF-0B712F9B3349.jpeg

    Next challenge: no fuel. Checked the tank - no rust inside. So put a few litres into the tank, but the pump didnít pull up any fuel. Pulling it out revealed a fair bit of internal corrosion and bypassing valves. It is an Australian made pump... but cannot find a manufacturer logo. But the valves appear to be standard 19mm ones, so found a company in Brisbane - Classic Carbs who appear to sell them.
    28BA695B-695C-4ABD-A38E-B45BEC588414.jpeg

    Would anyone know what brand the pump is?
    703C84AD-1DE8-47F0-A004-5FA580A2658A.jpeg

    so, hopefully once I have the new valves the pump will pull up fuel. Then onto the spark and if all goes as planned the beast will fire up. Hopefully without too many leaks of LHS, coolant or oil.

    Couple of other questions for the brains trust:

    what is this? Looks like a pressure sensor on the cam chain cover? Standard? Bolt on aftermarket?
    8D11864B-38E0-4F8E-8F2B-93768C0F65D2.jpeg

    and then this bolt. It is plugging a hole in the head. It is located to the front of the heater hose exit point. What would normally connect there?
    97960270-9D12-4E7A-A8D9-5C6CAB0D7369.jpeg

    also re manual: found 814. Seems to have a bit of older model stuff in it as well.

    Sven
    Current Garage:

    '07 C5 Wagon
    '57 DS19
    '51 11BL
    '55 Big 15
    '56 Bentley S1

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger
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    Manuals available in pdf are listed here:
    https://sites.google.com/site/citroenpublicationslist/
    Roger Wilkinson likes this.

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! bleudanube's Avatar
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    Thanks for the manual links. Plenty there to keep me occupied.

    Tim, I think 5+ years sitting unused hasn’t helped the car. But not to worry, I will get it to run. Pump valves are on its way.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! bleudanube's Avatar
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    Thanks for the manual links. Plenty there to keep me occupied.

    Tim, I think 5+ years sitting unused hasnít helped the car. But not to worry, I will get it to run. Pump valves are on its way.

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    Thatís the spirit. Time does fly by. Itís closer to 12 years. Still, adds to the challenge

    Tim
    Current Garage:

    '07 C5 Wagon
    '57 DS19
    '51 11BL
    '55 Big 15
    '56 Bentley S1

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! bleudanube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleudanube View Post

    Couple of other questions for the brains trust:

    what is this? Looks like a pressure sensor on the cam chain cover? Standard? Bolt on aftermarket?
    8D11864B-38E0-4F8E-8F2B-93768C0F65D2.jpeg

    and then this bolt. It is plugging a hole in the head. It is located to the front of the heater hose exit point. What would normally connect there?
    97960270-9D12-4E7A-A8D9-5C6CAB0D7369.jpeg

    also re manual: found 814. Seems to have a bit of older model stuff in it as well.

    Sven
    anybody out there with the knowledge of what the sensor is or what this bolt is shutting off?

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! bleudanube's Avatar
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    After installing two new fuel pump valves the pump worked a treat. No leaks and plenty of “suck”

    313F533A-1806-41E4-982C-EDFC561CE764.jpeg
    7F8AF797-90AA-4616-B1F4-3B44F2CCD58B.jpeg

    next onto the ignition: no spark. After rooting around cleaning every contact and checking everything it finally came down to the contacts. Adjusted those and I had a spark. After a few attempts the beast kicked over and ran! And not even too badly - a bit rough at first, but it then settled in. Something sounds a bit clunky, not sure yet whether it is the water pump or valves.

    Suspension? Well, if I had reinstalled the break accumulator maybe. Forgot that Had been removed and LHS started running wild... quick, shut the car off, mop up the fluid, install the accumulator, refill fluid and have another go. One of the unions was leaking. Clean up the thread a bit more (do these joints/threads have seals? Don’t believe they do, but can anyone confirm? Can you seal them with thread tape?) and all was ok.

    0804716E-8F27-44A7-9073-EC1E1A7024D3.jpeg
    A7680B94-B3F6-47B2-8308-2951F37A4CF1.jpeg

    The car even rose off its stops. Mostly the rear, but even the front came up a little.

    So, a pretty successful day. At least the car runs and even the hydraulics seem to have some life in them. Better then expected, but what I was hoping for.

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger!
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    The LHM cars most definitely have seals and, as both LHS and LHM are high pressure systems, i can't imagine that an LHS car would not.

    Based on LHM cars, the 4.5mm pipe takes a standard seal for that size, but the brake accumulator seal for the bigger 6.35mm pipe is not the same as the seal used at the pressure regulator and hydraulic pump. The internal diameter is the same - to fit the pipe - but the outer diameter of the seal is bigger. The usual suspects stock both (for LHM).

    UPDATE: I've just checked on 'Der Franzose'. Yes: the LHS cars need seals on the brake accumulator. There are THREE sizes of 6.35mm seals 8mm, 10mm and 12mm outer diameters. Apparently its the 12mm one that is needed for the brake accumulator.
    Last edited by Budge; 19th May 2019 at 12:01 AM.
    forumnoreason likes this.
    1968 DS21bvh Pallas in Gris Palladium

    Restoration blog: https://ds-restoration.blogspot.co.uk

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