Tyres for DS
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Thread: Tyres for DS

  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default Tyres for DS

    The 1970 DS is finally mobile again, but the tyres need replacing because of flat spots.

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    What is a good tyre for Dees?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieR View Post
    The 1970 DS is finally mobile again, but the tyres need replacing because of flat spots.

    What is a good tyre for Dees?
    I wouldn't fit Xas or XVS Michelins. Nor would I fit the faux-XVS Retro tyres made by Nankang.

    To reprint an earlier post on the topic:

    "The objections to the Xas/XVS are two: first, poor wet grip in both compound-dependent "merely slick" conditions & (especially) in streaming wet conditions (both patterns are poor at water clearance from the contact patch); &, second: snappy limit behaviour when adhesion is lost. These faults apply under both braking & cornering.

    Some respond to these faults by observing that they don't fang in the wet, drive carefully within limits & so on. I consider such responses to not take due note of the possibility of an emergency braking or swerving situation in the wet. I'd want the tyres on my precious classic to be part of the solution in such circumstances, not part of the problem.

    The issue with the Goddess is that 185/80-15 is an obsolescent size. So, however desirable it would be to fit a decent modern tyre, such will simply not be available in the size (regrettably, Hankook's half-way decent K715 is no longer available - in Australia anyway - in 185/80).

    So, any decent modern substitute will be in a wider & lower profile size. There are two potential objections to this (although both turn out to be merely potential).

    The first notes an unfortunate feature of the DS suspension: that camber angle is tied to body roll angle &, as the DS body rolls considerably, tyres must cope with considerable induced positive camber. Radials generally cope well with that but the more the sidewalls can distort to allow the contact patch to migrate laterally inwards but remain relatively flat, the better. Low profile tyres with shorter sidewalls &, likely, stiffer bead areas than 185/80 might well (counter-productively) climb onto the outside tread edge & lift some of the contact area.

    My favoured replacement (on tyre type availability grounds) size for the 185/80 is 195/65. It is potentially open to this objection. But the sidewall, although shorter (just under 13mm, not 15mm) is still hardly low, low profile & the tyres that I have in mind are not supersports types & do not have their bead area undesirably (in this context) stiffened to any great extent. My appraisal that this size would work well was confirmed in one of those other threads by someone in Spain who fitted that size & reported favourably.

    The second potential problem is clearance & for some of the mooted replacement sizes (like 205/70 which meritoriously retains the circumference of the 185/80 & thus speedo gearing) there was talk of inner guard fouling on full lock. None of those users seemed very concerned by that but, in any event, it is not a problem with 195/65 which is but .5cm wider on the inside & overcompensates for that anyway by being around 4cm shorter in diameter.

    Yes, 195/65 will lower the gearing by a bit over 6% but I consider that to be a trifling objection compared to the merits of having a decent tyre. And one can get some very good tyres in that size including the class leading Continental PremiumContact 5. The evidence for its merits is its test performance (see the below link & select the "all tests" tab & browse) but, in anecdotal report, I fitted this tyre in this size to a daughter's Corolla. The Corolla does not have the positive camber problem of the DS but I have driven it with the Contis in a deliberately experimentally vigorous way in the wet & judge the PC5 to be a very good "wet" tyre indeed.

    http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Co...-Contact-5.htm

    So, I suggest that you can do better than "what you know" &, next time, could profitably experiment with something other than the (ludicrously overpriced, incidentally) XVS. The improvement might save your life &/or that of your Goddess if the fates demand a sudden manoeuvre in the wet."

    As for the faux XVS, a respected German magazine is near unique in not just doing tyre tests of contemporary tyres but also of classic tyres. In a recent test of the size 205/70-14 on an old Merc., there were three tyres of interest. One was Michelin's XWX, another, the faux XVS & the third was a modernish reference tyre: Maxxis's MAP-1. The last is considered mediocre to poor in the wet but was generally superior to the XWX (itself superior to the XVS & Xas). The faux XVS was woeful compared to anything in any discipline.

    Send a P.M. to me with a regular email & I'll email a copy of the test.

    In short, if the Xas & XVS are mediocre & very expensive, the faux XVS is, although inexpensive, very poor in wet performance.

    As noted, I can't see why one wouldn't move to 195/65-15 given the vastly superior tyre choice available.

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 9th May 2019 at 12:10 AM.
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    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieR View Post
    The 1970 DS is finally mobile again, but the tyres need replacing because of flat spots.

    What is a good tyre for Dees?
    I would stick with Michelin XAS 180X15, if you want to enjoy the Citroen ride as intended.

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    There is a clearance issue at the rear wheels on a DS and the later cars with the rims with a square 'hole' in the middle would have been fitted to cars with an extra kick out in the bottom of the rear guard. That's to accommodate the wider tyres. I'm not sure when the change from the narrower round hole rims and rear guards without the kick out occurred, but check what's fitted as it is a limiting factor.

    The repro rims being sold by Franzose and others are a different configuration and heavier than the originals. For those worried about a tyre bead ridge, the repro rims have these to accommodate tubeless tyres. The originals didn't have this and was the reason many people fitted tubes with their tubeless tyres.

    There are valid points about maybe choosing a later type of tyre. However, the original tyres look 'right' because of the size and others don't. If not being able to find the latest tyre in the correct size is a problem, ask yourself whether it's appropriate to own the car. If you are uncomfortable with drum brakes (F&R TA,2cv Rear DS) and no ABS, AEB, airbags etc.., then buy another car.

    There is some discussion of the Nankang tyre here: Anyone used Nankang Retro RC-001 tyres? - The 'E' Type Forum
    Note that on page 2 someone posted one of the charts from the original test article by AutoBild from a couple of years back. It's a bit misleading because of the way they presented their results, but despite the colours, the rating numbers assigned essentially say the Retro tyre is not quite a good in the wet as the very expensive Michelin XWX, which in turn isn't as good, wet or dry,as more recent tyres.

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    has anyone using this forum have 195s on a D on the back, I agree with David you'd be highly likely struggling to fit them without the rear panels scraping the tyre?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mberry View Post
    I would stick with Michelin XAS 180X15, if you want to enjoy the Citroen ride as intended.
    Mind you, the intending was done in the absence of decent alternatives.

    I would have thought that the ride, if by that is meant 'comfort', of a DS would take considerable degradation life becoming uncomfortable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    There is a clearance issue at the rear wheels on a DS and the later cars with the rims with a square 'hole' in the middle would have been fitted to cars with an extra kick out in the bottom of the rear guard. That's to accommodate the wider tyres. I'm not sure when the change from the narrower round hole rims and rear guards without the kick out occurred, but check what's fitted as it is a limiting factor.

    The repro rims being sold by Franzose and others are a different configuration and heavier than the originals. For those worried about a tyre bead ridge, the repro rims have these to accommodate tubeless tyres. The originals didn't have this and was the reason many people fitted tubes with their tubeless tyres.

    There are valid points about maybe choosing a later type of tyre. However, the original tyres look 'right' because of the size and others don't. If not being able to find the latest tyre in the correct size is a problem, ask yourself whether it's appropriate to own the car. If you are uncomfortable with drum brakes (F&R TA,2cv Rear DS) and no ABS, AEB, airbags etc.., then buy another car.

    There is some discussion of the Nankang tyre here: Anyone used Nankang Retro RC-001 tyres? - The 'E' Type Forum
    Note that on page 2 someone posted one of the charts from the original test article by AutoBild from a couple of years back. It's a bit misleading because of the way they presented their results, but despite the colours, the rating numbers assigned essentially say the Retro tyre is not quite a good in the wet as the very expensive Michelin XWX, which in turn isn't as good, wet or dry,as more recent tyres.
    Some brief responses:

    First,the Retro faux XVS is not quite accurately described as 'not quite as good in the wet as the XWX"; it's very adrift of any other tyre in wet disciplines. Again, for a full copy of the test, PM me.

    Second, there are many sub-optimal features of classic cars which one can't fix. But if one can fix a major problem with but minimal aesthetic loss, then I would choose dynamic safety (&, for that matter, driving enjoyment) over aesthetics any time. YMMV

    Third, I had taken it that rear, as well as front, clearance was not an issue with 195/65 (reference: Spanish correspondent in previous thread) but it wouldn't be hard to find out as, given that 195/65-15 is a popular size, one could come to an arrangement with one's local Bob Jane (or whatever) to test fit whatever 195/65 they had in stock prior to making an order.

    Fourth, on tubeless tyres on tube-type rims & tubes in tubeless tyres & so on: I have posted at length on this in the past & can reproduce the detailed analysis on request but, in quick summary: do not fit tubes in tubeless tyres, it's dangerous; & fitting tubeless types to rims without the safety ridges is fine (the ridges only do work at catastrophically low pressures).

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    Some brief responses:

    First,the Retro faux XVS is not quite accurately described as 'not quite as good in the wet as the XWX"; it's very adrift of any other tyre in wet disciplines. Again, for a full copy of the test, PM me.

    Second, there are many sub-optimal features of classic cars which one can't fix. But if one can fix a major problem with but minimal aesthetic loss, then I would choose dynamic safety (&, for that matter, driving enjoyment) over aesthetics any time. YMMV

    Third, I had taken it that rear, as well as front, clearance was not an issue with 195/65 (reference: Spanish correspondent in previous thread) but it wouldn't be hard to find out as, given that 195/65-15 is a popular size, one could come to an arrangement with one's local Bob Jane (or whatever) to test fit whatever 195/65 they had in stock prior to making an order.

    Fourth, on tubeless tyres on tube-type rims & tubes in tubeless tyres & so on: I have posted at length on this in the past & can reproduce the detailed analysis on request but, in quick summary: do not fit tubes in tubeless tyres, it's dangerous; & fitting tubeless types to rims without the safety ridges is fine (the ridges only do work at catastrophically low pressures).
    195 65 .... urggghhh... I agree modern tyres are far supperior. But the DS wants nice tall tyres, with decent (and soft) sidewalls .... Then it will ride and drive like a DS

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    Tadpole
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    After much time on the phone, I've opted for a set of Vredestein tyres - correct size. Quoted prices per tyre: Dunlop - $500, Michelin XAS - $400, Vredestein - $300, Retro (Nanking) - $200.<br><br>I'll see how the tyres go.

    Charlie

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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieR View Post
    After much time on the phone, I've opted for a set of Vredestein tyres - correct size. Quoted prices per tyre: Dunlop - $500, Michelin XAS - $400, Vredestein - $300, Retro (Nanking) - $200.<br><br>I'll see how the tyres go.

    Charlie
    Good luck. My Djet came with these (155/80-15). I removed them as soon as I could. Sloppy handling response & poor wet grip were my objections.

    If buying locally, I'd get assurances before purchase that the manufacturing date was no more than 2 years ago.

    (PC5 Conti is $136 per tyre from Bob Jane).
    Last edited by 4cvg; 10th May 2019 at 09:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    195 65 .... urggghhh... I agree modern tyres are far supperior. But the DS wants nice tall tyres, with decent (and soft) sidewalls .... Then it will ride and drive like a DS

    seeya
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    As remarked, were the point to be merely aesthetic then I would simply note that my priorities differ.

    But your point is a dynamic one. I do wish that an AF DS driver would take the plunge & fit 195/65 Conti PC5 (or, if excessively tribalistic, Michelin's Primacy 4) & report back on ride degradation & the degree to which it no longer drove like a DS. I predict pleasant surprises (based on anecdotal evidence from some past postings).

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    As remarked, were the point to be merely aesthetic then I would simply note that my priorities differ.

    But your point is a dynamic one. I do wish that an AF DS driver would take the plunge & fit 195/65 Conti PC5 (or, if excessively tribalistic, Michelin's Primacy 4) & report back on ride degradation & the degree to which it no longer drove like a DS. I predict pleasant surprises (based on anecdotal evidence from some past postings).
    At the moment, Hankook is doing a "4 for the price of 3" deal. So, for a 195/65-15 Hankook Kinergy Eco (not class leading but a good tyre in most disciplines) the per tyre cost is $87 at the moment.

    It would be nice to see someone with old tyres on their cherished classic engage in a quick cheap experiment to test my claims as to the merits of the size.

    cheers! Peter

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