DS23 Auto Borg Warner drain plugs ??
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Thread: DS23 Auto Borg Warner drain plugs ??

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    Default DS23 Auto Borg Warner drain plugs ??

    Iím just wondering where the drain plug is on the Borg Warner automatic box. There is a drain plug further forward than the engine oil plug but does this plug empty the gearbox ?
    There is a dipstick down below which should be the gearbox oil.
    The automatic fluid dipstick is up high with the radiator top.

    So there is the engine oil drain plug - -

    Then what I think is the gearbox oil drain plug coming forward which the level is checked by the low situated dipstick - - -

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    but what drains out the red auto fluid ?? whoís level is checked by the high long dipstick near the radiator top.

    There is someone coming to look at the car and wants to drive it to Sydney so I want to get it right.

    Thanks, John

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    I've never looked under a DS box, but in other cars I have owned the BW35 was drained by removing the pan. Be prepared for the spill. The torque converter will still have fluid in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    I've never looked under a DS box, but in other cars I have owned the BW35 was drained by removing the pan. Be prepared for the spill. The torque converter will still have fluid in it.
    That would mean that the drain plug, similar to the engine drain plug is for the gearbox oil - - - not the automatic fluid.

    John

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    I have owned BW 35s and 65s, and always un-panned both, probably because I was after the filter. It was a long while ago. I just checked the old manuals (not Citroen) - the 35 has a drain plug, but the 65 doesn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    I have owned BW 35s and 65s, and always un-panned both, probably because I was after the filter. It was a long while ago. I just checked the old manuals (not Citroen) - the 35 has a drain plug, but the 65 doesn't.
    Sorry, I cannot recall about drain plugs but CAN add that the DS Borg Warner 35 gearbox has two separate oil requirements. The auto uses red transmission fluid but the final drive .. the diff requires high pressure gear oil. Two separate components inside the one housing. Mixing of these two different lubricants due to internal seal failure caused much drama and expenditure back in the day.... I suggest look further.
    With any luck M. Harrison Citroen will see the post and add more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzelhund View Post
    Sorry, I cannot recall about drain plugs but CAN add that the DS Borg Warner 35 gearbox has two separate oil requirements. The auto uses red transmission fluid but the final drive .. the diff requires high pressure gear oil. Two separate components inside the one housing. Mixing of these two different lubricants due to internal seal failure caused much drama and expenditure back in the day.... I suggest look further.
    With any luck M. Harrison Citroen will see the post and add more.
    I have seen the post, and am going right now to take pictures to show which dipstick is which, back shortly......
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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    My old cars, being rear wheel drive with the diffs well separated, didn't have that issue to cause confusion. Since the diff drives the axles, the diff drain is probably close to them.

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    dipstick1-reduced.jpg Dipstick2-reduced.jpg

    Okay: Photo Dipstick 1 is the differential dipstick, you refill with high pressure gear oil as Fritz says (gold in colour) through the dipstick hole.
    Photo Dipstick 2 is the gearbox dipstick (green tube, the loop to pull the lid has broken, yours probably the same...)
    you refill through the dipstick tube ONLY with ATF33 ABSOLUTELY! (bright red). NO friction modified oils such as Dexron, no, no, no,. These gearbox don't last with friction modified, no matter what the experts say!.
    I think your drain the gearbox by removing the pan, but am not completely sure, as I have not done it myself.
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisson_citroen View Post
    dipstick1-reduced.jpg Dipstick2-reduced.jpg

    Okay: Photo Dipstick 1 is the differential dipstick, you refill with high pressure gear oil as Fritz says (gold in colour) through the dipstick hole.
    Photo Dipstick 2 is the gearbox dipstick (green tube, the loop to pull the lid has broken, yours probably the same...)
    you refill through the dipstick tube ONLY with ATF33 ABSOLUTELY! (bright red). NO friction modified oils such as Dexron, no, no, no,. These gearbox don't last with friction modified, no matter what the experts say!.
    I think your drain the gearbox by removing the pan, but am not completely sure, as I have not done it myself.
    Okay it's all becoming clear with your responses. The local shop here has

    NULON PREMIUM MINERAL AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID - - - is this suitable ???

    John

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    It has to state that it is Atf33, on the sticker it will state "suitable for borg warner 35". All the brands make one. Always in stock at supercheap or repco.
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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    Nulon website states that their Premium mineral is a dex3 type oil and it therefore should not be used where a Ford type F oil is required.

    BW35 ATF33 is a Ford Type F oil. Such as Penrite:
    Annotation 2019-04-29 173452.jpg

    NULON:
    Annotation 2019-04-29 174028.jpg
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisson_citroen View Post
    dipstick1-reduced.jpg Dipstick2-reduced.jpg

    Okay: Photo Dipstick 1 is the differential dipstick, you refill with high pressure gear oil as Fritz says (gold in colour) through the dipstick hole.
    Photo Dipstick 2 is the gearbox dipstick (green tube, the loop to pull the lid has broken, yours probably the same...)
    you refill through the dipstick tube ONLY with ATF33 ABSOLUTELY! (bright red). NO friction modified oils such as Dexron, no, no, no,. These gearbox don't last with friction modified, no matter what the experts say!.
    I think your drain the gearbox by removing the pan, but am not completely sure, as I have not done it myself.
    The small dipstick in front of the radiator down near the steering rack on the top of the gearbox housing is for the differential final drive gear oil...it should come out wet with golden coloured quite thick oil that has a putrid rotten smell.
    The tall dipstick next to the radiator with the long sword like shaft is for the AUTO part. The deposit on it should be clear red. Dirty auto fluid will be dark stained and look like Coca Cola in colour. They originally had a short curved metal handle, by now probably brpken off.

    The original post was asking about DRAIN PLUGS .. so despite our collected "wisdom" the drain plug question has still not been addressed.

    Perhaps M. Harrison Citroen can crawl under, remove the sheet metal covers and repost pics of the underside of the transmission. Sorry I cannot be of more help. I disposed of my 23 ie auto close to 3 decades ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilberthenry View Post
    Okay it's all becoming clear with your responses. The local shop here has

    NULON PREMIUM MINERAL AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID - - - is this suitable ???

    John
    I'm answering my own quesrtion because of what you helpful people have told me. I'llhave to go up the road.

    Atleast I can change the gear oil.

    Thanks, John

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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzelhund View Post
    The small dipstick in front of the radiator down near the steering rack on the top of the gearbox housing is for the differential final drive gear oil...it should come out wet with golden coloured quite thick oil that has a putrid rotten smell.
    The tall dipstick next to the radiator with the long sword like shaft is for the AUTO part. The deposit on it should be clear red. Dirty auto fluid will be dark stained and look like Coca Cola in colour. They originally had a short curved metal handle, by now probably brpken off.

    The original post was asking about DRAIN PLUGS .. so despite our collected "wisdom" the drain plug question has still not been addressed.

    Perhaps M. Harrison Citroen can crawl under, remove the sheet metal covers and repost pics of the underside of the transmission. Sorry I cannot be of more help. I disposed of my 23 ie auto close to 3 decades ago.
    Yes I will, but only in the morning as I don't intend to crawl under the car unsupported and in the dark.!
    M.Fritz you mention disposing of your DS23 30 years ago, jeez, I hope it's not yours I' m driving now!!!!!
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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    I used to drain the torque converter/auto gear box by removing the pan. I got some gasket material and made up some spare pan gaskets. Removing pan allows inspection for any metal or other debris in g'box and clean any sludge. Use a fresh gasket.

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    Sump plug on gearbox pan ,might have to remove under tray to gain access, use a flat screwdriver to undo , I have pan gaskets if you ever need one

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrisson_citroen View Post
    Yes I will, but only in the morning as I don't intend to crawl under the car unsupported and in the dark.!
    M.Fritz you mention disposing of your DS23 30 years ago, jeez, I hope it's not yours I' m driving now!!!!!
    Rest assured ... mine was green with the last version gold coloured jersey waffle pattern cloth.

    I suspect at its rate of self destruct it couldn't possibly still be alive.

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    Yes there is a sump plug on '74 Auto.

    Hard to see with restricted photo size:

    Annotation 2019-04-30 121039.jpg
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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    I imagine that this is for the gearbox oil. It seems that to drain the Automatic fluid one has to remove the bottom pan as some, plus the man in the local shop has advised. Ofcourse I could be up the wrong tree.

    Thankyou all.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilberthenry View Post
    I imagine that this is for the gearbox oil. It seems that to drain the Automatic fluid one has to remove the bottom pan as some, plus the man in the local shop has advised. Ofcourse I could be up the wrong tree.

    Thankyou all.

    John
    Well, as far as I can see, the bolt I have circled in green in the picture, at the bottom of the "funnel" formation is an integral part of the bottom pan. Therefore, whether removing the pan or the bolt , you would achieve exactly the same: you would be draining the auto fluid. The drain bolt for the differential appears further away toward the cabin, then further away again you can see the circular shape of the oil filter cover.
    We'll wait for others opinions, but am pretty certain the bolt in the picture is the one you need for draining the transmission.

    It's better anyway to remove the pan and clean any muck that's in there and have a looksee.!
    But if you decide to go with the bolt, just open it slightly, and let some of the stuff drain, you can't mistake the two fluids anyway, trans is thin and red, diff oil is thick and gold....
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilberthenry View Post
    I imagine that this is for the gearbox oil. It seems that to drain the Automatic fluid one has to remove the bottom pan as some, plus the man in the local shop has advised. Ofcourse I could be up the wrong tree.

    Thankyou all.

    John
    John, as you remain unsure as to which is even the most basic component .. and you have already consulted "the local man" .... why not organise for the local man to do the messy drippy job for you....and here is the crux of my suggestion...while there, under a dripping DS get him to adjust the transmission bands. Pan off it will be a square foot of ( hopefully red ) dripping DS transmission....and I imagine it being up in the air above head height.
    B/W 35s are old technology with what are external drum "brakes' that grip the internal gearbox components.
    Band adjustment is relatively easy, requiring light tension ( INCH pounds ) and then backing off the adjustment, just like tappet adjustment for valve clearances.
    Back in the day band adjustment was a regular servicing requirement. I remember the "boys" at Maxim Motors needing to consult service bibles ... while standing under a dripping green Goddess. The "boys" now being retiring age. IF the local man is as experienced as he sounds band adjustment on a Borg Warner 35 will be familiar territory

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilberthenry View Post
    I imagine that this is for the gearbox oil. It seems that to drain the Automatic fluid one has to remove the bottom pan as some, plus the man in the local shop has advised. Ofcourse I could be up the wrong tree.

    Thankyou all.

    John
    John, If you decide to drop the pan yourself you need to be aware that auto transmission pans are installed with minimal torque on the small perimeter small bolts. Overtightening will see the pressed metal pan distort or over compress the sealing gasket resulting in leaks. Ensure the mating surfaces are perfectly flat and dry. The pressed metal pan may have local "dishing" around the small perimeter bolt holes if overtightened.
    Pan sealing gaskets are fitted dry. No sealing goop or gasket making material like silicone....even on one surface....not even a smear to hold it in place.
    The old gasket will be be unsuitable to be reused as it will not "recompress". It will probably come apart or tear upon removal. Wise to obtain a new one before you dive in and disturb the pan.
    Auto transmission servicing has to be scrupulously clean.
    All lessons from observation and talking with MY local transmission man .. except the overtightening when I created leaks rather than solving them....and required a return visit to "the local man" to rectify. ( C5 )

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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzelhund View Post
    John, If you decide to drop the pan yourself you need to be aware that auto transmission pans are installed with minimal torque on the small perimeter small bolts. Overtightening will see the pressed metal pan distort or over compress the sealing gasket resulting in leaks. Ensure the mating surfaces are perfectly flat and dry. The pressed metal pan may have local "dishing" around the small perimeter bolt holes if overtightened.
    Pan sealing gaskets are fitted dry. No sealing goop or gasket making material like silicone....even on one surface....not even a smear to hold it in place.
    The old gasket will be be unsuitable to be reused as it will not "recompress". It will probably come apart or tear upon removal. Wise to obtain a new one before you dive in and disturb the pan.
    Auto transmission servicing has to be scrupulously clean.
    All lessons from observation and talking with MY local transmission man .. except the overtightening when I created leaks rather than solving them....and required a return visit to "the local man" to rectify. ( C5 )
    When I started this thread I knew nothing and have learnt a lot. There is someone coming to look at the '23 Auto tomorrow - - coming from Sydney. I have topped up the gearbox oil part of the transmission and the Auto fluid is fine. If he buys the car he will drive it back to Sydney. Because it is highway driving 6there shouldn't be stress on the gearbox.
    If he doesn't I will continue. Because the bands need adjusting as you say the place to go to is at Kangaroo Flat in Bendigo where my brothers go for Humber and Rovers
    We have the '68 Safari, the '68 ID19B and the '74 D Special. The '74 Pallas has serviced us well but as these are more complicated cars with injection I am trying to keep life a bit simple for the future and feel this wonderful car can be loved by someone else. Anway, we'll see. Automatics are not everyone's choice but often when cruising through traffic I have thought they are the ultimate DS for luxury and no-fuss driving. As always, horses for courses.

    John.

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    Default DS23 BW35 drain plug

    John,

    I gather from your final post that you're happy with the information provided in this thread about level-checking and changing the auto trans fluid and differential oil in the DS23 you're selling.

    I have a 1974 DS23 (carby) fitted with the BW35 transmission and I believe the trans complements the D nicely. The transmission is also much quieter than several manual Ds I've driven.

    I attach a photo of the drain plug which I use to drain the ATF (Ford-type ATF33 - NOT Dexron - as emphasised above).

    I hope your car finds an appreciative new home.

    Chris
    Attached Images Attached Images
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