Xantia Hydraulic Hoses and LHM Tank Seal
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Thread: Xantia Hydraulic Hoses and LHM Tank Seal

  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default Xantia Hydraulic Hoses and LHM Tank Seal

    Hi All

    I have a 1996 Citroen Xantia and need to source some hydraulic LHM hoses and rubber tank seal.

    I have two broken LHM hydraulic hoses (two at the front when you look towards the fire wall. One appears to have a nylon insert within the hose) and a defective rubber seal (located between the gauge mechanism and the main part of the LHM tank).

    Does anyone have a tip on a quick fix or information as to where I may source the required parts?

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    Fellow Frogger
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    Welcome. You will need to replumb those return hoses with some fuel/oil hose (not EPDM rubber) and joiners as needed. They are all low pressure . If you break away the brittle rubber you will find some nylon fittings you can make use of. There are some other threads on this in the forum. I can't see the problem with seal for the tank. Is it broken or is the concern just that the top of the tank is a little damp?
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    UFO
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    The top of the tank could be damp from the tank being overfilled and/or where the hoses have gradually split at the tank top the low pressure return has dribbled.

    Follow David S advice re using fuel/oil hose
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  4. #4
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    Hi David S

    Thanks for the reply.

    The LHM appears to leak from beneath the seal. The seal is not broken but over time it seems to leak from the seal and then those annoying dash bells ring.

    I should also let you know that the top of the LHM tank is a little depressed and may have occurred over time due to heat.

    Do you recommend replacing that entire LHM tank or just secure the seal?

    i've done some research and have been advised by a hydraulic mechanic to use gasket sealant in the join re the seal.

    I see that there appears to be a lot of parts suppliers in the UK but was unsure if they are legit. Do you have any recommendations re suppliers of parts?

    Thanks re the information on the hydraulic hoses.

    I've been quoted around $500.00 per hose and was trying to avoid that if possible.

    Appreciate the tips.

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    If you can get away with it cut the pipe where split, fit some copper pipe into the lower section and use fuel hose and clamps to seal. The problem will be getting a joiner into the old hose without splitting so file the pipe down quietly to get it to fit gently then tighten a clamp onto it gently. You might want to clear some parts out of the way to do surgery. It’s a pain but other than that your options are limited, I’ve done numerous ones which have held up ok, a dremmel with a cutting wheel can be handy to slice off the outer cover of the connector to expose the serrated tubes if you want to do a straight join from connector back to the tank. Whichever way you got patience and being methodical and gentle with bits is key to solving it.

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    If you can get away with it cut the pipe where split, fit some copper pipe into the lower section and use fuel hose and clamps to seal. The problem will be getting a joiner into the old hose without splitting so file the pipe down quietly to get it to fit gently then tighten a clamp onto it gently. You might want to clear some parts out of the way to do surgery. Itís a pain but other than that your options are limited, Iíve done numerous ones which have held up ok, a dremmel with a cutting wheel can be handy to slice off the outer cover of the connector to expose the serrated tubes if you want to do a straight join from connector back to the tank. Whichever way you got patience and being methodical and gentle with bits is key to solving it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chambo View Post
    Hi David S

    Thanks for the reply.

    The LHM appears to leak from beneath the seal. The seal is not broken but over time it seems to leak from the seal and then those annoying dash bells ring.

    I should also let you know that the top of the LHM tank is a little depressed and may have occurred over time due to heat.

    Do you recommend replacing that entire LHM tank or just secure the seal?

    ...
    I got my first Citroen (a Xantia) just over a decade ago, so I can still remember having to learn how it all worked.

    Unlike the C5, the hydraulic system in the Xantia (& all previous hydraulic Cits) is not sealed. It will work fine with the cap off the tank, and with leaks from those rubber return lines (until it runs out of LHM of course). In fact air needs to be able to get in and out of the tank, as the level of fluid can change. Distortion in the shape of the tank (such as a concave top) has no effect on operation. In fact there would be very few Citroens with a perfectly dry hydraulic tank.

    Now as to that annoying 'bell' - I presume you mean the two-tone chime that starts when you turn the key on, and carries on for a while after the engine starts? As long as it stops within a minute or so then it's almost certainly perfectly normal - certainly nothing to do with a bit of LHM pooling on top of the reservoir. The chiming continues until the system reaches operating pressure (pressure drops when the engine is off because the system is not sealed), and there are a number of factors that can influence how quickly that happens - eg condition of hydraulic pump.

    It would help if we knew the model - let us know the VIN and we can tell you quite a lot about your Xantia. For example, a VSX has more complicated hydraulics than an SX, and may take longer to get pressure up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chambo View Post
    Hi David S

    ...

    Thanks re the information on the hydraulic hoses.

    I've been quoted around $500.00 per hose and was trying to avoid that if possible.

    Appreciate the tips.

    Let us know who quoted you that, and we'll avoid them like the plague!!

    I'll let others advise on suppliers - just check freight charges very carefully eg. onlinecarparts.co.uk charges a flat rate of 107.48 pounds for any shipment, no matter how small!!!

    Cheers

    Alec

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    You'll find some of the original/genuine hoses have two layers - a thin, flexible outer layer, with a thicker inner layer. The inner layer gets hard with age, and can split even though the outer layer still seems fine.

    This of course is what happens if you cut the end off an old hose, and push a joiner in so that you can add on a piece of new hose. Looks fine, but if that inner layer splits, then LHM will find a way out, no matter how you clamp the joints.

    Cheers

    Alec

    PS - have you checked the level of LHM in the tank? If the beeping doesn't stop, then low LHM level will be the first thing to eliminate.

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    I went the whole hog and spent on a new set of return hoses (octopus). In hindsight it would be more efficient and easier to do what the others above have said about just cutting and shutting the hoses. Take you time and pull apart the hoses to get the joiners out. Then reconnect as said above.

    My new Xantia CT

    Have a browse through this thread where I change it outfoe the new one. Even after ordering the correct hoses based on the VIN they were still the wrong hoses and I had to make up connections.

    Cam
    98 Xantia CT
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
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    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

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    I went the whole hog and spent on a new set of return hoses (octopus). In hindsight it would be more efficient and easier to do what the others above have said about just cutting and shutting the hoses. Take you time and pull apart the hoses to get the joiners out. Then reconnect as said above.

    My new Xantia CT

    Have a browse through this thread where I change it outfoe the new one. Even after ordering the correct hoses based on the VIN they were still the wrong hoses and I had to make up connections.

    Cam
    98 Xantia CT
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    92 405 Mi16
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  11. #11
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    I have been through the hose problems. Go to a good hydraulic hose company, they will have a whole range of hoses for oil which are better quality than the originals, doesn't cost too much either. For branches etc, you should find brass tees bends etc in a whole range of sizes, even reducing couplers. You don't have to follow the original route, the oil is under slight pressure & will return to the reservoir regardless of the route. Obviously keep it neat & logical for appearance & for future fault finding. The only place I had a problem was the brake control unit, it was a pig to connect to, I had to remove it to get the pipes on, but I did it! Clamp the hoses onto their respective pipes with hose clamps or similar, don't rely on just a push fit, guess how I know.

    Well with the effort of doing all the hoses as the old ones will eventually fail at the most inconvenient time. I did have a weeping high pressure hose as well, the hydraulic people made me up a good high pressure hose & put on unions to made installation easier, good people.

    Persevere it is worth it.

    Regards

    agd123
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  12. #12
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    if you can be bothered to make them that site xantia007 has details on methods to make them up.

  13. #13
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    Hi agd123 and everyone else who posted

    Your advice was excellent.

    I went to Hydrolink at Eagle Farm in Brisbane and Dennis who works there was great. Provided excellent advice and solutions to my issue.

    Supplied me with new hoses/clamps that cost $56.00.

    I followed the path of hose 1 and it seemed to take a very difficult and unnecessary route. Many right angle turns, running in between the radiator and front of the engine before terminating on the left hand side of the engine bay clamped to something

    Maybe I got it wrong but I just ran the new hose from the outlet barb on the LHM tank to the left side of the engine bay and hooked it though accelerator cable bracket that had a guide which perfectly fit the hose. it doesn't restrict the accelerator cable at all.

    In relation to hose 2 ,I cut the out hard rubber RHM return (manifold if that is what you call it) back with a Dremel to expose the end of the plastic fitting. I just connected a flexible oil hose on the end of the exposed fitting and done. The flexible hose when it bent at the right angle to the tank has not restricted the interior circumference of the hose. Good hoses available these days.

    One challenge to go.

    Are you able to advise what numbers 5 and 6 are on the attached pic do?

    Many years ago when it was at the mechanic, they blocked off number 5. It doesn't appear to have affected anything but the main thing I was that I would like to address number 6, so I can get the car back on the road.

    The hose on number 6 has broken off and I can't see where it runs to.

    Are you able to advise, as I intend to go back to Hydrolink and get a hose/fittings to run to where ever it has to go?

    I did a search on line and it appears to be (from my French translation) a steering return ???? Is this correct and where do I run a hose from the LHM tank to connect to what?

    Also do you have any tips on whether I need to reconnect number 5 and where this runs and connects to?

    Regards
    Chambo

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Xantia Hydraulic Hoses and LHM Tank Seal-lhm-tank-pic.jpg  
    Last edited by Chambo; 9th March 2019 at 08:31 PM.

  14. #14
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    have a look at this

    Xantia Citro&eumln


    5 ABS and brake doseur and 6 returns from suspension cylinders.

    I would be patching at the tank!
    Last edited by forumnoreason; 9th March 2019 at 08:26 PM.

  15. #15
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    Thank you.

    Unfortunately my French is not so good.

    If you could please assist with any advise as to where I run the hose from re 6 on the LHM tank pic
    i posted and connect to what, that would help me greatly i.e. where is the barb at the other end that i need to connect to. Tank barb at one end and connect to what/where at the other end?

    Regards

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    don't worry about the french its the diagrams you need to study! If your car has ABS then thats the three way pipes in the last diagram of that link page, at 7.5 on the tank. The doseur is at the end of the brake pedal and obviously it will be a long hose running along the back of the motor up along behind the LHM tank. I would be clearing anything that obstructs access to get to that pipe up the top, intake pipe for instance. Take the battery out and whatever else might block you to to the ABS. If it doesn't have ABS then you're looking ar the last diagram on the left side, straight to doseur. You'll need to have safe and secure access under the front of the car to get to it and the usual warnings apply to having the car jacked up to reach in to it. Have you got a Haynes manual?

  17. #17
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    The really substantial return volumes come from the steering pinion and the pressure regulator. When they break, you will have another Exxon Valdez incident. Just work your way through the system and replace what you see. Also change the two front strut return hoses as they move around a lot and will snap when they become brittle.

    The small plastic tubes are low volume leakback tubes from the struts and steering ram. From memory they come up in small pipes behind the reservoir from the front and rear. They may be 5 and 6. In a Xantia, there are two three-way rubber joiners on the rear suspension beam and another under the front passenger floor. The front one is green and at the rear blue and orange. You really need to drop the muffler to properly get at the rear beam. If they break and you can't locate new joiners, you can use generic joiners and short pieces of rubber hose as a solution.

  18. #18
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    Thanks forumnoreason

    Number 6
    The case of number 6 has been resolved

    I ran a new hose from the Doseur to a new brass t-section with one line to the LHM tank and the other to the ABS.

    You were right, my lack of French didn't matter that much.

    Unfortunately, this seems to be the case of never ending busted hydraulic lines.

    Number 5
    Number 5 in the pic I sent has now presented a new issue.

    The fist F shaped fitting from the LHM tank, has two hoses that run downwards (left and right) and one that returns sideways to the LHM tank.

    Unfortunately, the two downward left and right hoses are broken just after the fitting.

    These hoses are extremely brittle and if I insert a hose joiner into the existing lines I can foresee is going to be problematic. i can salvage the F-section fitting or use a substituted configuration of brass fittings and hoses, but the issue is connecting that in some way to the deteriorated hoses that appear to run and branch off to the front and rear spheres. The line on the left (runs to the rear spheres) of the first F shaped fitting has broken off inside a rubber sleeve so there appears be no solid way of joining a fitting or a connector to the existing line. I can replace the line to the right (front spheres) by clamping a new hose onto the right that runs to the second F shaped fitting that leads to the front spheres.

    Do you have any suggestion or is running new lines to the rear spheres the only solution?

    If I have to run a new line to the rear spheres do you have any suggestions where I can run it and at what point do you suggest I connect up to the existing configuration?

    P.S. The forum didn't let me upload a high quality pic of the spec drawing that you sent so here is the same link to assist with where my problem lays.


    Xantia Citro&eumln


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Xantia Hydraulic Hoses and LHM Tank Seal-screen-shot-2019-03-10-3.27.16-pm.png  

  19. #19
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    Houston, hello? My only suggestion without seeing it is to get some copper pipe and file down the edges to make a chamfered edge that will squeeze into any busted hose then join that up and continue with new hose. Or have a trawl throught the brilliant xantia007 site and see how they tackle making up new octopuses. Access is always going to be your problem with this stuff but you've done the doseur well done so you know what you're up against. Chevronics in the UK have pointed out on their site they are considering having some of these octopuses remade for us suckers hanging onto what are (apart from really badly designed return hoses) great cars... Best of luck.

    ps you're in a worse situation than what I have encountered so far but I know that tampering or moving about ANYTHING made of rubber in the system on these is like stepping on a landmine. And I also know that fixing it is a massive PITA... And all we wanted to do was clean the filter in the lhm tank. sob

    pps wait till you have to do the one on the top steering which is tucked away in impossibleville. I spent HOURS trying to get a hose back on that and to this day consider it a crowning achievement of my amateur mechanics.
    Last edited by forumnoreason; 10th March 2019 at 10:16 PM.
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  20. #20
    JBN
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    A good time to do the steering return is if the head needs to be removed from the engine. All of a sudden you have fairly good access from the top. That is when I did mine.
    If the French had done the design job properly, they would have used the same octopus on both left and right hand drives by adding and aluminium tube on the RHD versions from the steering wheel end to the position where the octopus attached on the LHD versions.

    John

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Once the hoses have reached the stage yours are at, to get a reliable car you need to replace all the hoses, if not they will keep failing at the most inconvenient times. These cars are very much worth getting to the reliable point, bit the bullet, swear, & just keep going till there are no more old hoses to fail, you will be able to enjoy the car without being constantly in fear of the next disaster.

    Regards

    agd123

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